Armory Sponsor
Posted: 12/20/2010 11:27:49 AM EDT
|
I did my first reloads of .308 and went and shot them this morning.Gun is a Armalite AR10 NM upper stainless steel 1:10 twist 4 groove.
From the help asking questions in another thread most seemed to be concerned with starting with reduced loads, working up etc. I was useing the Sierra manual and addition 5.I was useing new PPU brass and CCI 200 primers. These are the loads i started out with...loads 1 through 6 did pretty good others were pretty big groups.. #1 175 SMK varget 39.9 #2 175 SMK Tac 37.8 #3 175 SMK IMR 4895 39.0 #4 168 SMK RE15 40.3 #6 175 SMK RE15 37.0 #7 175 SMK varget 38.4 #8 168 SMK IMR 4895 38.2 #9 168 SMK Varget 38.6 Only a few did fairly good none as good as the factory match ammo i tryed last time.All were really mild with no pressure signs. I shot some LC10 XM80 150gr stock ammo which is not supposed to shoot so good in this twist of 1:10 but it did pretty good really. No targets to post ya... too bad looking groups... Well here are my best two targets... 
heres the XM 80 
|
| Was there a specific reason you used all those different powders? I would have used one, started at say 40 grains (for example) and loaded a few, then loaded a few at 40.5 and 41 and 41.5, etc until I found the best groups. Then I would move to another powder and do the same until you find what works best. This way (unless you have done prior trials I don't know about) doesn't really tell you much. That rifle and those bullets should shoot great groups, it's just a matter of finding the right powder and charge. |
|
Well i wanted to try all those powders as thats the stuff everyone one said they really liked so i got all of them.
I was also told to read the service rifle part in the Sierra manual and start low for service rifle like its a big deal need lighter then bolt rifle etc. I can see that are way light so guess no need for being so conservative about it but thats what guys told me on here. The 4 loads that did the best was : 175 SMK with 39.9 varget and manual shows 38.6, 38.1, 39.9 max of 41.7..... I think i go to 40.5 next on that. 175 SMK with 37.8 TAC and manual shows 37.8, max of 39.9..... so i will go up to 39.0 on that. 175 SMK with 39.0 IMR 4895 shows 36.7, 37.9, 39.1 40.3 max of 41.50..... i will go to 40.5 168 SMK with 40.3 RE15 shows 38.8, 40.4, 42.0, max at 43.6 .....so i will go up to 42.0 on that I will go up on the rest too as all were really light loads i could tell.Primers not flattened hardly none. Sound about right.Taking into consideration my lack of marksmanship skills. I can do this with my RRA Predator Pursuit AR15 though..I have worked up some great shoot'n loads for that rifle in .223 
|
|
I have read that you should not use different powders without cleaning in between. It messes with accuracy, some powders are not compatible but i couldnt tell you why. look up "optimal charge weight" on google and read his articles, they are very informative.
heres what i would do; pick a case and primer and bullet pick a powder, i go for the slower ones of the group determine a max charge and reduce 10% and then load 5 each increase charge .5 and load five more repeat untill you reach maximum shoot for groups if you dont get satisfactory results try i different powder. (but that has never been the problem) if you find a spot where the groups start tightening up, repeat the above procedure with a smaller increment bracketing the range of charge weight that show good results. optimal charge weight you will make yourself crazy trying to test all variables at once, and chances are many of the powders will produce very good results depending on your loading technique. Consistency is the key. YMMV ETA: your rifle will get dirty and groups wil decrease as you shoot it. so if your first groups were good but and all you last one were worse i would be suspect of accuracy loss due to fouling, barrel heating in addition to the mixing of powders i mentionedl earlier |
|
Quoted:
Would you mind letting us know what the range of powder (start loads to max) is in the manual you are using? From memory your Varget load 38-39 gr seems really light. I recall 42 or 43 grains for my old Rem 700;. yea this too. IIRC i started at 39gr of varget and worked up to 45.5gr of varget in .3gr increments with 175gr SMKs (carefully checking for pressure signs each shot). you will notice groups growning or shrinking as you change the charge weight. just loading some of each powder at a starting load and trying them will not tell you which one will be best for your rifle. more than likely all powders you have listed will be satisfactory, and you will have to choose one based on some other feature (ei it works for other calibers you load, it burns clean, or it tolerates temp better) ETA: sorry for all the immedaite responses, but i just went through all this myself...if you are trying to decide if you guns like 168s or 175s buy a box of each of federal GMM or Black Hills and test them. then pick on and stick to it. |
|
OK...well i di clean the bore after each 5 shot group except when i did the 10 rounds of XM 80 i just blasted them off.
My 5 shot groups between cleaning the bore was spaced out some so the barrel won't get to hot about one round every minute or so. So thats sounds like a good idea going up just .5 on the ones i did and 5 rounds of each up to the max.I still want to use all those powders though and will keep up the cool down and bore cleaning after each 5 shot groups so that sounds good don't it? |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Would you mind letting us know what the range of powder (start loads to max) is in the manual you are using? From memory your Varget load 38-39 gr seems really light. I recall 42 or 43 grains for my old Rem 700;. yea this too. IIRC i started at 39gr of varget and worked up to 45.5gr of varget in .3gr increments with 175gr SMKs (carefully checking for pressure signs each shot). you will notice groups growning or shrinking as you change the charge weight. just loading some of each powder at a starting load and trying them will not tell you which one will be best for your rifle. more than likely all powders you have listed will be satisfactory, and you will have to choose one based on some other feature (ei it works for other calibers you load, it burns clean, or it tolerates temp better) ETA: sorry for all the immedaite responses, but i just went through all this myself...if you are trying to decide if you guns like 168s or 175s buy a box of each of federal GMM or Black Hills and test them. then pick on and stick to it. I posted what the manual says just two spots up if ya go back and look at it.I was going up .5 on my varget load also as i posted. Yeah when i broke in my barrel i shot Black Hills match 175 gr and Winchester Supreme 168 and 175 gr and some TAP match also.All shot better then my relaods for sure. But i want to keep at it and try to find the best one like i have for my RRA Predator Pursuit.Its really likes the H322 but also i have some good loads with other poders too. I did load some .223 with relaoder 15 and they shot pretty good too this morning.Thanks guys! |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Would you mind letting us know what the range of powder (start loads to max) is in the manual you are using? From memory your Varget load 38-39 gr seems really light. I recall 42 or 43 grains for my old Rem 700;. yea this too. IIRC i started at 39gr of varget and worked up to 45.5gr of varget in .3gr increments with 175gr SMKs (carefully checking for pressure signs each shot). you will notice groups growning or shrinking as you change the charge weight. just loading some of each powder at a starting load and trying them will not tell you which one will be best for your rifle. more than likely all powders you have listed will be satisfactory, and you will have to choose one based on some other feature (ei it works for other calibers you load, it burns clean, or it tolerates temp better) ETA: sorry for all the immedaite responses, but i just went through all this myself...if you are trying to decide if you guns like 168s or 175s buy a box of each of federal GMM or Black Hills and test them. then pick on and stick to it. I posted what the manual says just two spots up if ya go back and look at it.I was going up .5 on my varget load also as i posted. Yeah when i broke in my barrel i shot Black Hills match 175 gr and Winchester Supreme 168 and 175 gr and some TAP match also.All shot better then my relaods for sure. But i want to keep at it and try to find the best one like i have for my RRA Predator Pursuit.Its really likes the H322 but also i have some good loads with other poders too. I did load some .223 with relaoder 15 and they shot pretty good too this morning.Thanks guys! what are you using to weigh the charges? im running out of ideas |
|
Quoted:
what manual are you using? get 3 or 4 for cross reference. Those charge weights seem a bit to low to me... also try some 190's and 210's in that 1/10 twist +1 on charge weights. You are quite a ways away from seeing any pressure signs with the Varget loads. If you had a chronograph on the 175 smk over 39.9 Varget load, I doubt that you would even see 2,400 fps. The Black Hills factory 175 ammo that you shot probably hits about 2,550 fps. from your 20". My guess is that working up to 42.5 or 43.0 grains of Varget is where your best groups will happen. There are others on the AR-10 forum that have found that range to work well with the 175 smk. My best group from my old AR-10 20", was a Hornady 168 gr. bullet over 44.0 grs. of Varget that showed no signs of pressure, and made about 2,600 fps. My barrel was 11.25 twist, and I was using winchester brass with Federal 210M primers. Good luck, and have fun at the range. 
|
|
Quoted:
what manual are you using? get 3 or 4 for cross reference. Those charge weights seem a bit to low to me... also try some 190's and 210's in that 1/10 twist Yes they are low...these were starting loads.On the other thread folks seemed to tell me to start low and work up...To read service rifle info in the Sierra Manual. I am weighing the powder on my RCBS range master Electronic scale.Each load trickled up and dropped with funnel to case. I used the Sierra manual and Hornady Service Rifle data to come up with my starting loads. I think i will come up now .5 on the powder loads 5 rounds of each, up another .5 and so on see what shoots best. I know its a lot of loading for my many powder choices to try but what the heck...have fun trying them all out right? Also i want to add i got the impression before that a AR10 needs lighter loads then data thats intended for bolt action rifles....true/false? |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
what manual are you using? get 3 or 4 for cross reference. Those charge weights seem a bit to low to me... also try some 190's and 210's in that 1/10 twist Yes they are low...these were starting loads.On the other thread folks seemed to tell me to start low and work up...To read service rifle info in the Sierra Manual. I am weighing the powder on my RCBS range master Electronic scale.Each load trickled up and dropped with funnel to case. I used the Sierra manual and Hornady Service Rifle data to come up with my starting loads. I think i will come up now .5 on the powder loads 5 rounds of each, up another .5 and so on see what shoots best. I know its a lot of loading for my many powder choices to try but what the heck...have fun trying them all out right? Also i want to add i got the impression before that a AR10 needs lighter loads then data thats intended for bolt action rifles....true/false? True, the AR-10 should be run with less pressure than a bolt gun, but the service rifle data you are referring to is probably for something like the M1A, where an overly stout load can damage the operating rod. When you get to loads that are over pressure in your AR-10, you will see primer issues, and or swipes on the case heads before any harm is done to the rifle. One thing that happens in your AR-10 with a high pressure load is the bolt will cycle before the case can contract from the chamber sides, and the extractor struggles to rip it free. This I believe is the cause of the swipes on the case heads. My personal experience loading for my AR-10, depending on powder, was that the accuracy showed up before I reached pressures that caused problems. I hope my limited knowledge helps.
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
what manual are you using? get 3 or 4 for cross reference. Those charge weights seem a bit to low to me... also try some 190's and 210's in that 1/10 twist Yes they are low...these were starting loads.On the other thread folks seemed to tell me to start low and work up...To read service rifle info in the Sierra Manual. I am weighing the powder on my RCBS range master Electronic scale.Each load trickled up and dropped with funnel to case. I used the Sierra manual and Hornady Service Rifle data to come up with my starting loads. I think i will come up now .5 on the powder loads 5 rounds of each, up another .5 and so on see what shoots best. I know its a lot of loading for my many powder choices to try but what the heck...have fun trying them all out right? Also i want to add i got the impression before that a AR10 needs lighter loads then data thats intended for bolt action rifles....true/false? True, the AR-10 should be run with less pressure than a bolt gun, but the service rifle data you are referring to is probably for something like the M1A, where an overly stout load can damage the operating rod. When you get to loads that are over pressure in your AR-10, you will see primer issues, and or swipes on the case heads before any harm is done to the rifle. One thing that happens in your AR-10 with a high pressure load is the bolt will cycle before the case can contract from the chamber sides, and the extractor struggles to rip it free. This I believe is the cause of the swipes on the case heads. My personal experience loading for my AR-10, depending on powder, was that the accuracy showed up before I reached pressures that caused problems. I hope my limited knowledge helps. A little more about case swipes if ya can...not sure how that looks.Any pics? |
Sorry no pics. I only had it happen to me on an AR-10 T chambered in 243 win with a max load of H4350, which is a fairly slow powder that gave me generous cycling. The marks are actually left by the ejector on the case head from the bolt coming back too quickly, so the damage is a slightly recessed mark with a lighter scored arc jutting from it. If I still had the brass I would take some pics, maybe some else will chime in with pics, or better my explanation. Just watch your case heads where the ejector hits between the primer and the edge for any marks, when it starts to happen you will see it. Again with the loads you are starting with, you should be a long way from having swipes on the case heads.
|
|
Quoted:
Sorry no pics. I only had it happen to me on an AR-10 T chambered in 243 win with a max load of H4350, which is a fairly slow powder that gave me generous cycling. The marks are actually left by the ejector on the case head from the bolt coming back too quickly, so the damage is a slightly recessed mark with a lighter scored arc jutting from it. If I still had the brass I would take some pics, maybe some else will chime in with pics, or better my explanation. Just watch your case heads where the ejector hits between the primer and the edge for any marks, when it starts to happen you will see it. Again with the loads you are starting with, you should be a long way from having swipes on the case heads. OK got it. I did notice some brass ejected kind of slow...I caught in my side vision as i shot .Seemed more often on first shot and brass landed at about 2:00 with the majority of my brass landing at 2;20-3:00. I would stop pic up each 5 shot group and examine the brass.I did not see any of that swipe on those. A few though had some small dings in the side....guess that where the deflector smacked them. |
| ok those are good for start loads , I see pressure signs at 43g varget in my ar10. I did my ladder in .3g increments , 10 cases for each weight started at 38 and went to 43. I found 41.5 of varget was the magic number for my rifle. you would have do ladders for each powder , maybe do 5 cases instead of 10 but all that is your preference. i think your groups could be better , i do .5 or better and last week put 3 shots in a dime hole using varget and 168 smk's. you just need to find the magic number , and borrow a lead sled if you can find one. |
|
Quoted:
ok those are good for start loads , I see pressure signs at 43g varget in my ar10. I did my ladder in .3g increments , 10 cases for each weight started at 38 and went to 43. I found 41.5 of varget was the magic number for my rifle. you would have do ladders for each powder , maybe do 5 cases instead of 10 but all that is your preference. i think your groups could be better , i do .5 or better and last week put 3 shots in a dime hole using varget and 168 smk's. you just need to find the magic number , and borrow a lead sled if you can find one. Thanks...good stuff.Yeah i know a lot of it is me for sure.I have this set up as in the pic below. I put my left arm/hand under the back of the buttsock and hold it into my shoulder,try to concentrate, breathing etc. It was pretty winding that day but its always windy here in west texas... I will get the brass ready and work up some in increments and report back on how its doe's. 
|
|
Update on my .308 testing on my new AR10: I tested these loads below yesterday morning.Light wind and about 66 degree's out.They all shot pretty darn good.
The ones in bold shot tightest groups and these ^^^ i will go up on a little to try out... 75 rounds loaded up in somewhat .5 increments from what i posted earlier on my first loads. Some went up more from my original base loads as i started at the minimun listed in the Sierra manual. I did weight the bullets into same weights for each 5 shot groups also.All PPU brass other then noted below,CCI200 primers..all 2.800 OAL 175 SMK varget 40.5, 41.0 and 41.5 ^^^ 175 SMK TAC 40.5 i only did that as the 37.8 was not too bad before. 175 SMK IMR4895 40.5, 41.0 175 SMK RE15 40.5 and 39.5 175 SMK TAC (in LC Brass) 40.5 This should be a step up from the PPU.(a little warm will go down .5) 168 SMK RE15 41.5, 42.0 168 SMK IMR4895 39.9, 40.5 168 SMK varget 41.5, 42.0 ^^^ None of the above are at max load levels listed in the manual. All shot at 100 yards. I know i am useing a lot of powders and i'm seeing not too much differance in them.I have a feeling i will narrow my powder down to just one or two eventually. Just a few targets to show...I know its a lot of ME thats needing improvement but my groups are tightening up a little. 
|
| I can never get good groups with those orange dot targets. I need a black bullseye I can cut into pie quarters. I use 3" at 50 yards, 6" at 100 yards and 12" at 200 yards. Standard NRA highpower +/- for iron sights. I find it easier to find the center that way. Sometimes I'll put white target pasters in the X ring. |
|
The RE15 and 175gr at 39.5 looks pretty good. You gotta try 40.0 grains to see what happens.
Narrowing down the charge weight differences to 0.3 grains will help you center on your accuracy load. eventually you can start worrying about all the other variables lilke different brass and future temperature changes My safety tip would be to be very careful of your reloads seating the bullets deeper on chambering in the AR10. I had this happen with new ball ammo on my AR10A4. Some people crimp the bullets in, I turned down my expander in my resizing die for bettter bullet grip and will need to buy another die for any other .308's I get in the future. gordonm1 |
Armory Sponsor