Armory Sponsor
Posted: 6/7/2010 8:17:21 PM EDT
Ok, I just purchased a Hornady LNL press, a set of their full size .308 dies and head space guages. My plan was to measure my spent brass to determine my chamber size and then size the shoulder back about .003 inches. From everything I've read, this is the way to go. Here's my problem....my spent brass measures 1.628 inches, but after resizing, the length grows to 1.633 and it no longer chambers into my rifle. Before you ask, that's with the die screwed all the way down. I've even tried 2 different die bodies with the same outcome. I don't really see where I could be going wrong?
Anybody have any suggestions. |
|
In addition to the above two things, also check that the die is screwed down far enough. I know what you said, but sometimes you have to screw it down farther than "just touching the shell holder".
One way to do it is to raise the ram, then screw the die down until it touches the shell holder. Lower the ram and screw the die down farther about 1/16 to 1/8 turn. Then, when the ram comes up, the slop in the linkage will be taken out and you will fully size your brass. Have you tried sizing with and without the sizer ball, as a test of whether it's the die setting or the expander ball? Just for reference, the maximum OAL of sized brass should not exceed 2.015" (measured case head to case mouth). If it is this long or longer, you need to trim your brass. |
|
Quoted:
Sized rifle brass will typically grow in length. You may need to invest in a trimmer. The sized brass headspaces correctly though right? also, what type of rifle are you using? If a bolt action just neck size and FL ever 10 reloads or so maybe trim alittle off at a time till it functions in the rifle then write it down, or keep a case for an index when you FL the brass has to go some where and it wont be down. The best time to trim is after doing a FL |
|
Quoted:
Ok, I just purchased a Hornady LNL press, a set of their full size .308 dies and head space guages. My plan was to measure my spent brass to determine my chamber size and then size the shoulder back about .003 inches. From everything I've read, this is the way to go. Here's my problem....my spent brass measures 1.628 inches, but after resizing, the length grows to 1.633 and it no longer chambers into my rifle. Before you ask, that's with the die screwed all the way down. I've even tried 2 different die bodies with the same outcome. I don't really see where I could be going wrong?
Anybody have any suggestions. Sir, as has already been mentioned brass usually grows a bit after it has been resized. The responses you have received so far for adjusting the dies should all prove helpful. What bothers me about your question as Mr. Mills has pointed out, .308 Win. brass OAL should be between 2.0" and 2.015". Exactly what dimension of the cases that you are measuring is 1.628"? 7zero1 out. |
|
Quoted:
In addition to the above two things, also check that the die is screwed down far enough. I know what you said, but sometimes you have to screw it down farther than "just touching the shell holder". One way to do it is to raise the ram, then screw the die down until it touches the shell holder. Lower the ram and screw the die down farther about 1/16 to 1/8 turn. Then, when the ram comes up, the slop in the linkage will be taken out and you will fully size your brass. Have you tried sizing with and without the sizer ball, as a test of whether it's the die setting or the expander ball? Just for reference, the maximum OAL of sized brass should not exceed 2.015" (measured case head to case mouth). If it is this long or longer, you need to trim your brass. First off, thanks for everyone's responses. It's why I love this place. I have not run the die lower than it hitting the shell plate. I basically raised the ram screwed the die down until it hits the shell plate and then tightened the die down. I'll try to go past the point where it hits the shell plate and see how that works. It's not logical to me, but I'll certainly give it a try. I have not tried to resize without the expander, but will give that a shot as well. Can you elaborate on how the expander would make a difference. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Sized rifle brass will typically grow in length. You may need to invest in a trimmer. The sized brass headspaces correctly though right? also, what type of rifle are you using? If a bolt action just neck size and FL ever 10 reloads or so maybe trim alittle off at a time till it functions in the rifle then write it down, or keep a case for an index when you FL the brass has to go some where and it wont be down. The best time to trim is after doing a FL Yes It is a bolt action. I do have a trimmer and will try trimming it down to see what happens, however, I am only measuring from the sholder with the headspace guage. From what I have read, the overall length should grow, but the shoulder should actually be bumped back to just shorter than the actual rifle chamber. Is this not correct? This is where I'm confused. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Ok, I just purchased a Hornady LNL press, a set of their full size .308 dies and head space guages. My plan was to measure my spent brass to determine my chamber size and then size the shoulder back about .003 inches. From everything I've read, this is the way to go. Here's my problem....my spent brass measures 1.628 inches, but after resizing, the length grows to 1.633 and it no longer chambers into my rifle. Before you ask, that's with the die screwed all the way down. I've even tried 2 different die bodies with the same outcome. I don't really see where I could be going wrong?
Anybody have any suggestions. Sir, as has already been mentioned brass usually grows a bit after it has been resized. The responses you have received so far for adjusting the dies should all prove helpful. What bothers me about your question as Mr. Mills has pointed out, .308 Win. brass OAL should be between 2.0" and 2.015". Exactly what dimension of the cases that you are measuring is 1.628"? 7zero1 out. Like I said, I'm measureing from the shoulder of the case(I think it's called the datam line) with the head space guage, not the overall length. I haven't much been concerned with the OAL because I know I can trim it back to the proper size. As suggested several times, I will trim some cases back tonight to see if they chamber, but I'm still confused as to why the length from the shoulder grows. It just goes against what I've read. My understanding was that when you shoot, the brass expands to fit the chamber and resizing bumps the shoulder back a hair and then you just trim the overall length. If this isn't the case, then why resize at all? Why not just trim down the length? Afterall, shouldn't brass fired from my chamber fit the chamber perfectly? |
|
What do the directions for the dies say?
On my LEE dies, the FL sizing die in the .308 kit is to be screwed down until it touches the fully extended ram (with shellholder in place), then screwed down a little bit more so that the handle "cams over" a little bit. If your shoulder is still moving forward after sizing, check your necks and expander ball. if the necks are really dirty, and the ball just a bit large, retracting the shell can pull the shoulders forward when the ball catches in the neck. I scrub my .308 necks after tumbling to get out any carbon residue, even before sizing. Then again, I load for a precision bolt gun, and my volume is low. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Ok, I just purchased a Hornady LNL press, a set of their full size .308 dies and head space guages. My plan was to measure my spent brass to determine my chamber size and then size the shoulder back about .003 inches. From everything I've read, this is the way to go. Here's my problem....my spent brass measures 1.628 inches, but after resizing, the length grows to 1.633 and it no longer chambers into my rifle. Before you ask, that's with the die screwed all the way down. I've even tried 2 different die bodies with the same outcome. I don't really see where I could be going wrong?
Anybody have any suggestions. Sir, as has already been mentioned brass usually grows a bit after it has been resized. The responses you have received so far for adjusting the dies should all prove helpful. What bothers me about your question as Mr. Mills has pointed out, .308 Win. brass OAL should be between 2.0" and 2.015". Exactly what dimension of the cases that you are measuring is 1.628"? 7zero1 out. Like I said, I'm measureing from the shoulder of the case(I think it's called the datam line) with the head space guage, not the overall length. I haven't much been concerned with the OAL because I know I can trim it back to the proper size. As suggested several times, I will trim some cases back tonight to see if they chamber, but I'm still confused as to why the length from the shoulder grows. It just goes against what I've read. My understanding was that when you shoot, the brass expands to fit the chamber and resizing bumps the shoulder back a hair and then you just trim the overall length. If this isn't the case, then why resize at all? Why not just trim down the length? Afterall, shouldn't brass fired from my chamber fit the chamber perfectly? Sir, now that I understand the nature of the measurement that you provided I think I may actually understand your question better. Assuming that you are using the head space gage similar to the tool Mr. Salazar shows in the article linked, or an RCBS case mic the problem you are seeing is most likely related to the expander ball diameter of the dies you are using. As Mr. Mall Ninja has pointed out when you resize your cases the decapping pin and expander ball are inside the case when the press ram is in the full up position. Many resizing dies resize the outside diameter of the case neck significantly greater than is really needed and the result especially when neck thickness become a bit large is a large difference between the case neck ID and the expander ball OD. As you withdraw the resized case from the die the expander ball contacts the interior of the resized case neck and the ball is dragged through the case as you continue to lower the press ram. When the difference in the diameters of the expander ball and the inside of the case neck are large the frictional drag of the expander ball and case neck interior causes the case neck and shoulder to become distorted a bit and actually can actually cause the case to grow to some dimension larger than what you resized it to. For .308 Win cases I like the finished case neck inside diameter to be .306" and I achieve that dimension by using an expander ball that is .306" in diameter. I also use a case neck expander mandrel of the same diameter after resizing to ensure the case neck ID is that dimension and that case neck tension is uniform for all cases regardless of slight variations of case neck thickness. A bit of lube will reduce the friction of the expander ball in the case neck interior as well as a clean case neck interior. Make sure if you lube the case neck interior to remove the lube before you reach the point of seating a bullet. FWIW, I personally prefer to use Imperial resizing wax to lube cases for resizing including the case neck interior. I tumble all resized brass to remove all trace of case lube. Lastly some die makers offer a carbide expander ball as an option to reduce the frictional drag. I prefer Redding dies for a lot of reasons. HTH, 7zero1. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Ok, I just purchased a Hornady LNL press, a set of their full size .308 dies and head space guages. My plan was to measure my spent brass to determine my chamber size and then size the shoulder back about .003 inches. From everything I've read, this is the way to go. Here's my problem....my spent brass measures 1.628 inches, but after resizing, the length grows to 1.633 and it no longer chambers into my rifle. Before you ask, that's with the die screwed all the way down. I've even tried 2 different die bodies with the same outcome. I don't really see where I could be going wrong?
Anybody have any suggestions. Sir, as has already been mentioned brass usually grows a bit after it has been resized. The responses you have received so far for adjusting the dies should all prove helpful. What bothers me about your question as Mr. Mills has pointed out, .308 Win. brass OAL should be between 2.0" and 2.015". Exactly what dimension of the cases that you are measuring is 1.628"? 7zero1 out. Like I said, I'm measureing from the shoulder of the case(I think it's called the datam line) with the head space guage, not the overall length. I haven't much been concerned with the OAL because I know I can trim it back to the proper size. As suggested several times, I will trim some cases back tonight to see if they chamber, but I'm still confused as to why the length from the shoulder grows. It just goes against what I've read. My understanding was that when you shoot, the brass expands to fit the chamber and resizing bumps the shoulder back a hair and then you just trim the overall length. If this isn't the case, then why resize at all? Why not just trim down the length? Afterall, shouldn't brass fired from my chamber fit the chamber perfectly? Sir, now that I understand the nature of the measurement that you provided I think I may actually understand your question better. Assuming that you are using the head space gage similar to the tool Mr. Salazar shows in the article linked, or an RCBS case mic the problem you are seeing is most likely related to the expander ball diameter of the dies you are using. As Mr. Mall Ninja has pointed out when you resize your cases the decapping pin and expander ball are inside the case when the press ram is in the full up position. Many resizing dies resize the outside diameter of the case neck significantly greater than is really needed and the result especially when neck thickness become a bit large is a large difference between the case neck ID and the expander ball OD. As you withdraw the resized case from the die the expander ball contacts the interior of the resized case neck and the ball is dragged through the case as you continue to lower the press ram. When the difference in the diameters of the expander ball and the inside of the case neck are large the frictional drag of the expander ball and case neck interior causes the case neck and shoulder to become distorted a bit and actually can actually cause the case to grow to some dimension larger than what you resized it to. For .308 Win cases I like the finished case neck inside diameter to be .306" and I achieve that dimension by using an expander ball that is .306" in diameter. I also use a case neck expander mandrel of the same diameter after resizing to ensure the case neck ID is that dimension and that case neck tension is uniform for all cases regardless of slight variations of case neck thickness. A bit of lube will reduce the friction of the expander ball in the case neck interior as well as a clean case neck interior. Make sure if you lube the case neck interior to remove the lube before you reach the point of seating a bullet. FWIW, I personally prefer to use Imperial resizing wax to lube cases for resizing including the case neck interior. I tumble all resized brass to remove all trace of case lube. Lastly some die makers offer a carbide expander ball as an option to reduce the frictional drag. I prefer Redding dies for a lot of reasons. HTH, 7zero1. All of this is good information. I believe that we may be on to something with the expander lengthening the cases on the way out. I will resize a few cases tonight without the expander to see what measurements I can come up with. I bent the damn thing last night anyway. Thanks for all the good responses |
|
Quoted:
Ok, I removed the expander and resized a few cases without issue. Trimmed one down to the proper length and it chambers just fine. This of course leads me to my next question. Now what do I do about depriming and expanding? well, if you call up the guys who make your die, you can get another decapping pin/expander ball. If you're nice about it, they may even send it to you for free. like previously mentioned, a .306 diameter ball would be just peachy... Just remember to clean the inside of the neck prior to sizing, and just a little bit of lube. I too use Imperial Sizing Wax. |
|
Quoted:
Ok, I removed the expander and resized a few cases without issue. Trimmed one down to the proper length and it chambers just fine. This of course leads me to my next question. Now what do I do about depriming and expanding? Sir, I have no personal experience with Lee dies so my answer to your question can only be in general terms based on my experience with dies from other makers. As Mr. Mall Ninja has mentioned an expander ball diameter of .306" would be helpful, but actually modifying the die would not only require some fairly sophisticated machine tools but also some precision measuring tools which you haven't mentioned if you have or not. I believe Forester/Bonanza make dies with specific neck dimensions at the request of the customer. Redding type "S" dies allow the user to choose exactly what neck bushing he desires to produce the desired neck ID. Keep in mind this approach sizes the outside diameter of the case neck but the real dimension of concern is the inside diameter which is dependent on the thickness of the case neck. Modification and polishing of the expander ball is a simple means of improving the die performance but you'll need a decent micrometer to ensure you end up with an expander ball of the exact diameter you want. My personal choice to address this problem is to select a Redding type "S" die with the appropriate size bushing, install the carbide expander ball option, and use a neck expander mandrel to ensure final neck inside diameter is exactly what I want to ensure uniform case neck tension. All this may seem a bit of overkill but I've determined that a key component of precision cartridges is consistant case neck tension, which means that the actual inside diameter of the case neck is matched to the diameter of the bullets you intend to use. HTH, 7zero1. |
|
Spend $9 or so and get a Lee Universal Depriming die. Deprime as a separate step, which gives you a lot more flexibility on how you use your expander ball.
You should also see just how smooth that expander ball is. If it's even a bit rough, it could be "pulling" the neck longer than a smooth ball would. Polishing the expander ball helps smooth the whole process of sizing, too. |
|
I ordered the Universal Decapper from midway last night. I like the idea of depriming before tumbling anyway. Also, if I deprime prior to resize, I see no reason that I can't run the expander high enough that it never entirely enters the case. Just enough to form the neck.
I'll try to make time today to call hornady. They'll probably send me a replacement spindle for free. While I'm a it, I'll ask about a .306 expander ball. Mine measures .308. I am guilty of not cleaning the inside of the neck, so once I get the new spindle, I'll also see if that helps. It surely can't hurt. Someday, maybe I'll actually put a whole round together. 
|
|
Quoted:
Also, if I deprime prior to resize, I see no reason that I can't run the expander high enough that it never entirely enters the case. Just enough to form the neck. Be careful doing this. If you raise it too high it can be too close to the shoulder and the neck will simultaneously be squeezed by the sizing die and the expander will be partially in the neck not allowing it to be sized down correctly. You will destroy the brass, ruin another sizing stem, and possibly get a case stuck in the die. |
|
Quoted:
I ordered the Universal Decapper from midway last night. I like the idea of depriming before tumbling anyway. Also, if I deprime prior to resize, I see no reason that I can't run the expander high enough that it never entirely enters the case. Just enough to form the neck. I'll try to make time today to call hornady. They'll probably send me a replacement spindle for free. While I'm a it, I'll ask about a .306 expander ball. Mine measures .308. I am guilty of not cleaning the inside of the neck, so once I get the new spindle, I'll also see if that helps. It surely can't hurt. Someday, maybe I'll actually put a whole round together. There is a HUGE reason not to do the part I made red. The expander MUST be fully below the neck when resizing, as the die will squeeze the neck down smaller than the expander (that's why it's called an expander), so you CANNOT have the ball inside the neck. Just follow the directions, stop trying to improvise based upon something you've heard (but don't understand), and you will be fine. 
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I ordered the Universal Decapper from midway last night. I like the idea of depriming before tumbling anyway. Also, if I deprime prior to resize, I see no reason that I can't run the expander high enough that it never entirely enters the case. Just enough to form the neck. I'll try to make time today to call hornady. They'll probably send me a replacement spindle for free. While I'm a it, I'll ask about a .306 expander ball. Mine measures .308. I am guilty of not cleaning the inside of the neck, so once I get the new spindle, I'll also see if that helps. It surely can't hurt. Someday, maybe I'll actually put a whole round together. There is a HUGE reason not to do the part I made red. The expander MUST be fully below the neck when resizing, as the die will squeeze the neck down smaller than the expander (that's why it's called an expander), so you CANNOT have the ball inside the neck. Just follow the directions, stop trying to improvise based upon something you've heard (but don't understand), and you will be fine. Good advice! But if your expander, even with properly lubed case neck, is still making your brass grow, then the expander may be too rough or too big. You can take the expander rod out of the die and chuck it into a drill. Then using sandpaper/crocus cloth/polishing compound, you can fix either problem. Use a caliper to measure and go easy. Try polishing first. Make it a mirror and it'll usually slide out without growing the brass. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I ordered the Universal Decapper from midway last night. I like the idea of depriming before tumbling anyway. Also, if I deprime prior to resize, I see no reason that I can't run the expander high enough that it never entirely enters the case. Just enough to form the neck. I'll try to make time today to call hornady. They'll probably send me a replacement spindle for free. While I'm a it, I'll ask about a .306 expander ball. Mine measures .308. I am guilty of not cleaning the inside of the neck, so once I get the new spindle, I'll also see if that helps. It surely can't hurt. Someday, maybe I'll actually put a whole round together. There is a HUGE reason not to do the part I made red. The expander MUST be fully below the neck when resizing, as the die will squeeze the neck down smaller than the expander (that's why it's called an expander), so you CANNOT have the ball inside the neck. Just follow the directions, stop trying to improvise based upon something you've heard (but don't understand), and you will be fine. Good advice! I w But if your expander, even with properly lubed case neck, is still making your brass grow, then the expander may be too rough or too big. You can take the expander rod out of the die and chuck it into a drill. Then using sandpaper/crocus cloth/polishing compound, you can fix either problem. Use a caliper to measure and go easy. Try polishing first. Make it a mirror and it'll usually slide out without growing the brass. Good lord! What did reloaders do before the internet? Thanks for the advice. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I ordered the Universal Decapper from midway last night. I like the idea of depriming before tumbling anyway. Also, if I deprime prior to resize, I see no reason that I can't run the expander high enough that it never entirely enters the case. Just enough to form the neck. I'll try to make time today to call hornady. They'll probably send me a replacement spindle for free. While I'm a it, I'll ask about a .306 expander ball. Mine measures .308. I am guilty of not cleaning the inside of the neck, so once I get the new spindle, I'll also see if that helps. It surely can't hurt. Someday, maybe I'll actually put a whole round together. There is a HUGE reason not to do the part I made red. The expander MUST be fully below the neck when resizing, as the die will squeeze the neck down smaller than the expander (that's why it's called an expander), so you CANNOT have the ball inside the neck. Just follow the directions, stop trying to improvise based upon something you've heard (but don't understand), and you will be fine. Good advice! I w But if your expander, even with properly lubed case neck, is still making your brass grow, then the expander may be too rough or too big. You can take the expander rod out of the die and chuck it into a drill. Then using sandpaper/crocus cloth/polishing compound, you can fix either problem. Use a caliper to measure and go easy. Try polishing first. Make it a mirror and it'll usually slide out without growing the brass. Good lord! What did reloaders do before the internet? Thanks for the advice. If your .308 happens to be a semiauto like an AR-10 or such, you should READ THIS. Towards the end of the article there is a section heading "Neck Tension." In that section is a better description of what I was talking about in my last post...as well as other options. (this same article is in Sierra's current manual) |
|
Quoted:
I had the exact same problem with my L&L and Hornady .308 dies. I polishing the expander to a mirror and it fixed the problem. I make a point to get a little lube on the expander before each loading session as well. -Deke Thanks, I called Hornady and they are sending me a new spindle and expander ball. The technician I spoke with says he shoots 1,000 yrd matches and initally had the same type of trouble. He too suggested polishing the expander ball and plenty of lube inside the neck of the case. One things for sure, whether or not you like Hornady products, it's hard to find anything bad to say about their custome service.
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I ordered the Universal Decapper from midway last night. I like the idea of depriming before tumbling anyway. Also, if I deprime prior to resize, I see no reason that I can't run the expander high enough that it never entirely enters the case. Just enough to form the neck. I'll try to make time today to call hornady. They'll probably send me a replacement spindle for free. While I'm a it, I'll ask about a .306 expander ball. Mine measures .308. I am guilty of not cleaning the inside of the neck, so once I get the new spindle, I'll also see if that helps. It surely can't hurt. Someday, maybe I'll actually put a whole round together. There is a HUGE reason not to do the part I made red. The expander MUST be fully below the neck when resizing, as the die will squeeze the neck down smaller than the expander (that's why it's called an expander), so you CANNOT have the ball inside the neck. Just follow the directions, stop trying to improvise based upon something you've heard (but don't understand), and you will be fine. Good advice! I w But if your expander, even with properly lubed case neck, is still making your brass grow, then the expander may be too rough or too big. You can take the expander rod out of the die and chuck it into a drill. Then using sandpaper/crocus cloth/polishing compound, you can fix either problem. Use a caliper to measure and go easy. Try polishing first. Make it a mirror and it'll usually slide out without growing the brass. Good lord! What did reloaders do before the internet? Thanks for the advice. If your .308 happens to be a semiauto like an A-10 or such, you should READ THIS. Towards the end of the article there is a section heading "Neck Tension." In that section is a better description of what I was talking about in my last post...as well as other options. (this same article is in Sierra's current manual) Good article. I bookmarked it for future reference. |
Armory Sponsor