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Posted: 9/4/2009 8:59:12 AM EDT
I have been using rem brass and lapua brass. 43.5 gr of varget cci 200 primer SMK 175 gr bullet seated 10,000th off the lands. With the rem brass I don't get any marks, but the lapua brass I have been getting quite a few of them. I was wondering if this is resizing issue or a pressure issue. Its weird that the lapua brass does this and not the rem brass. The primers aren't cratering or anything. I know lapua brass seems a bit heavier, so to speak, I'm wondering if the rem brass flows better when its fire formed or something. Maybe my hornady die isn't resizing the lapua brass right. I have the die touching the shell holder and them over camed just a bit. Any suggestions? I don't have any problems closing the bolt with either of the two. The rifle is a savage 10fcp 24in. barrel.
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Do you mean ejector marks? If it's a mark on the headstamp part of the case, it is the ejector. If the marks are on the extraction groove, it's the extractor. It's my experience that when brass is imprinting with the ejector, the pressure is likely high. I'm surprised you don't have any primer flattening if that's the case. I'd back the load down and see if the marks go away.
For a bolt gun, you might be sizing the cases more than you need to. When I size for my bolt guns, I just barely kiss the shoulder with the sizing die. This is only true if the rounds will be fired in the same rifle. If you plan to use the loads in multiple guns, full length sizing is probably better. |
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Seating 1/10000 th of an inch off the lands, is in the lands. There's no way you can measure or control that dimension to 0.0001 inches.
The heavier of the two cases has smaller internal volume. The smaller volume causes the chamber pressure to be higher. Size and trim, then fill a few of each brand of case with water to the top of the case mouth. Weigh each case empty, and then filled. This will give you a measure of the difference of the internal volumes of the cases. |
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Do you mean ejector marks? If it's a mark on the headstamp part of the case, it is the ejector. If the marks are on the extraction groove, it's the extractor. It's my experience that when brass is imprinting with the ejector, the pressure is likely high. I'm surprised you don't have any primer flattening if that's the case. I'd back the load down and see if the marks go away. For a bolt gun, you might be sizing the cases more than you need to. When I size for my bolt guns, I just barely kiss the shoulder with the sizing die. This is only true if the rounds will be fired in the same rifle. If you plan to use the loads in multiple guns, full length sizing is probably better. Yes I meant ejector marks, sorry for the confusion, now when you just neck size (i believe thats what you were talking about), I have heard of this but I always full length them, just because thats how I was taught. I would like to learn more about your method if you could explain what you mean buy kissing the shoulder. Do you just back the die off more? And I always trim my cases and they are only shot out of one gun. |
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Its weird that the lapua brass does this and not the rem brass. Why is it weird? Brands will vary. Aloha, Mark WHY? because remington brass is softer. Is it ALWAYS the case? Aloha, Mark PS...........just like the controversy with FEDERAL brass. Is it ALWAYS the case? ___________________ And, not to mention what AreoE said. |
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Its weird that the lapua brass does this and not the rem brass. Why is it weird? Brands will vary. Aloha, Mark WHY? because remington brass is softer. Is it ALWAYS the case? Aloha, Mark PS...........just like the controversy with FEDERAL brass. Is it ALWAYS the case? Well lapua guarantees 10 reloads per case, I don't think remington does. |
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Seating 1/10000 th of an inch off the lands, is in the lands. There's no way you can measure or control that dimension to 0.0001 inches. The heavier of the two cases has smaller internal volume. The smaller volume causes the chamber pressure to be higher. Size and trim, then fill a few of each brand of case with water to the top of the case mouth. Weigh each case empty, and then filled. This will give you a measure of the difference of the internal volumes of the cases. You should see cratered primers if its pressure issuses before ejector marks. Not? |
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Guarantee...........10 reloads?
WOW. Never heard that one. ________________________ Brass varies and case life will vary..............depending on a lot of various factors. Chambers, caliber, data used, pressures involved, etc......... But, say that I may get X number of reloads out of ABC brand brass vs. Y number of reloads for XYZ brass. Does that mean that it's BETTER brass? I don't think so. But, Yes................Lapua brass is widely thought of as BETTER brass. And, the costs reflects it. So, does your observations mean that you'll get less case life? Maybe, maybe not. But, since you said that you have a 10X guarantee. Well, shoot it and use it..............if you don't get the 10 reloads try your guarantee. Aloha, Mark |
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Guarantee...........10 reloads? WOW. Never heard that one. ________________________ Brass varies and case life will vary..............depending on a lot of various factors. Chambers, caliber, data used, pressures involved, etc......... But, say that I may get X number of reloads out of ABC brand brass vs. Y number of reloads for XYZ brass. Does that mean that it's BETTER brass? I don't think so. But, Yes................Lapua brass is widely thought of as BETTER brass. And, the costs reflects it. So, does your observations mean that you'll get less case life? Maybe, maybe not. But, since you said that you have a 10X guarantee. Well, shoot it and use it..............if you don't get the 10 reloads try your guarantee. Aloha, Mark I'm sorry it says a minimum of 10x http://www.cabelas.com/p-0044354216332a.shtml And you haven't shed any light on why the ejector marks are happening I was looking for some knowledge on that. Not a pissing match. |
| ejector marks are from high pressure. Someone already mentioned this. Brass thickness effects case volume, Lapua may be a little thicker therefore causing high pressure with the same load in Rem brass. you should always rework the load if you change a component, this is why. If shooting a bolt gun, dont waste your money on Lapua brass if you are going to FL size everytime. you should be neck sizing for a bolt gun and full length sizing when the bolt lift gets tight. |
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I'm sorry it says a minimum of 10x http://www.cabelas.com/p-0044354216332a.shtml And you haven't shed any light on why the ejector marks are happening I was looking for some knowledge on that. Not a pissing match. It's hot now: http://www.cabelas.com/p-0044354216332a.shtml So, it's not EXACTLY a guarantee. And I never intend for for my posts to be a pissing match. But, since you see it that way............. I'm sorry for that. My intent was to bring to light, a certain amount of, "realization." That..........things can vary. Results with one brand does not automatically mean that you'll get the same results with another brand. And, that can also extend to different lots from the same manufacturer. BTW......you read what AeroE said? ______________________________________ In the end........there are many things that could be going on. Beside brass variation, which I mentioned. And, is also touched on (though in different words) by AeroE. And, we readers cannot always judge your reloading prowess (or lack there of). I say that.....keeping in mind, all of the people who come to the forum insisting that their equipment is no good......when in fact, it's their techniques and methods (and/or lack there of). Then perhaps, some things should be accepted, given what we have to work with. Because, we don't have CONTROL OVER EVERYTHING. ______________________________________ That all being said............I don't know what your experience level is. But, good luck with your loads/rifle. Aloha, Mark |
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Rafterman: If you are going to be that closed minded, why even post?
These aren’t cake recipes in the manuals, they are a range of loads that are approached for what they are – advice! You claim 0.0001 from the lands and everyone knows that is impossible! You “think” Lapua is heaver than Remington, implying you never weighed one… You have not mentioned what cartridge, powder or any load data but want a diagnosis that conforms to your preconceived notion of something??? A lot of excellent advice is being given here by several members. You would do well to listen. |
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Heck, I would consider it a stretch if someone claims they can measure the lands within 0.001". Quoted: Seating 1/10000 th of an inch off the lands, is in the lands. There's no way you can measure or control that dimension to 0.0001 inches. The heavier of the two cases has smaller internal volume. The smaller volume causes the chamber pressure to be higher. Size and trim, then fill a few of each brand of case with water to the top of the case mouth. Weigh each case empty, and then filled. This will give you a measure of the difference of the internal volumes of the cases. |
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I'm thinking he meant 10/1000 or .010. I'm just guessing but he wrote it as 10,000 which sounds like ten thousandths. you are correct I just typed it wrong, I am sorry for the confusion. 
I'm not being close minded, I'm just frustrated. I just started loading that particular caliber, and its the one time I have ran into any issues. I never got around to weighing both cases, maybe I should have before I stated I "think" its heavier, my mistake once again. Sorry for comin off as dickhead, I like this site and have learned a lot. And also been made to feel like I'm idiot at the same time. Thanks for the info guys, I really do appreciate it. Sorry once again. |
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I'm going to agree with the other posts concerning case weight and internal volume, a heavier case, will in general ,= less volume, which equals higher pressure.
And...if you change components, you should work up the load over again. You may even see an accuracy gain in the process. |
| Boy! Some people have no clue! There is no assurce of number of reloads you get from Lapua Brass, and if there such a thing then Jeanne at Kaltron would be aware of that. Common sense dictactes that one does not swap loads between different kinds of brass: that is just plain trolling for trouble! I have found no need to ever need to be close to the lands with SMK's they like to jump! |
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Seating 1/10000 th of an inch off the lands, is in the lands. There's no way you can measure or control that dimension to 0.0001 inches. The heavier of the two cases has smaller internal volume. The smaller volume causes the chamber pressure to be higher. Size and trim, then fill a few of each brand of case with water to the top of the case mouth. Weigh each case empty, and then filled. This will give you a measure of the difference of the internal volumes of the cases. You should see cratered primers if its pressure issuses before ejector marks. Not? Not necessarily. But I would expect to see an extremely flat primer along with ejector marks. |
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I'm thinking he meant 10/1000 or .010. I'm just guessing but he wrote it as 10,000 which sounds like ten thousandths. you are correct I just typed it wrong, I am sorry for the confusion.
I'm not being close minded, I'm just frustrated. I just started loading that particular caliber, and its the one time I have ran into any issues. I never got around to weighing both cases, maybe I should have before I stated I "think" its heavier, my mistake once again. Sorry for comin off as dickhead, I like this site and have learned a lot. And also been made to feel like I'm idiot at the same time. Thanks for the info guys, I really do appreciate it. Sorry once again. I don't think you have say your'e sorry. there are a lot of personalities on here and frankly, many are on a constant rag. That is why I try to only read and learn from posts, instead of posting. I am kind of tired of people jumping on your ass for just asking a question. I mean, this is a DISCUSSION board isn't it?? Just try to ignore the idiots and learn from the knowledgable people (and there are many), who understand that they didn't know everything when they started. take care and good luck, exnavarm |
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I have been using rem brass and lapua brass. 43.5 gr of varget cci 200 primer SMK 175 gr bullet seated 10,000th off the lands. With the rem brass I don't get any marks, but the lapua brass I have been getting quite a few of them. I was wondering if this is resizing issue or a pressure issue. Its weird that the lapua brass does this and not the rem brass. The primers aren't cratering or anything. I know lapua brass seems a bit heavier, so to speak, I'm wondering if the rem brass flows better when its fire formed or something. Maybe my hornady die isn't resizing the lapua brass right. I have the die touching the shell holder and them over camed just a bit. Any suggestions? I don't have any problems closing the bolt with either of the two. The rifle is a savage 10fcp 24in. barrel. Back to the issue at hand...Do you have an RCBS precision mike or reasonable facimilie to measure the two different brass case brands and see how they go thru the same die? Can you paint a circumferential line around the case about 0.200 above the rim and use that as an after firing pressure gage with a 4 place micrometer? See if the die bumps the two brands at same number of firings back to the same distance from shoulder to case rim. See if the circumference of the two brands are the same at the .200 reference line, and if they expand the same amount after same number of firings? Weigh the trimmed out cases in your powder wt measure and see the difference. That should give you an idea of whether or not there are metallurgical or material differences between the two brands. You will probably have to do several to get a signficant statistical sampling or see any trends. (off topic) Handloader Journal (Dec. 2008 issue IIRC) had an objective test run of how many resizing .308s until case separation. I think the winner was Remington or Winchester low brow stuff over the fancier Lapua, and others. So, it is hard to go just by brand name. |
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Rafterman: Why not just back off and see what happens???
Horandy show loads in 100 fps jumps – find the block closest to your load and drop to the load for the block under it. Generally for Varget that would be at least 1.0 Gr to about 1.4 Gr… Give that a try and see what happens – after all, you have 10 reloadings  (I guess that is a Midway guarantee, nothing on the box indicates it is a Lapua claim does it?)
Did you ever mention the cartridge? If I missed it, sorry. |
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