Armory Sponsor
Posted: 8/24/2009 8:17:08 PM EDT
| Here is what happened, I started to load some rounds (first time) and I screwed up when i was seating. The brass I am using is all .223 FC once fired (from my AR) from 100 rnd bulk packs. The case sizes varied from about 1.739 to 1.750 (trimmed). When I set the seat and crimp die I must have used one of the short cases. Some of the cases have a very smalll buldge at the shoulder where it looks like the seating die pushed on it. I looked in the manuals and it says that the diameter of the shoulder should be .354 inches and these cases are still under that. When i tried to drop the rounds in the chamber they went in fine but i had to tap on them with a cleaning rod (just even part of the wieght of the rod and there was no resistance) to get them to come back out. The cases with no bulge fell right out on thier own. The non-bulged cases are .352 at the necks and the bulged ones are .353 or .354. Is this usable or did I just waste primers? |
|
What you end up doing is up to you.
But, that being said............. There is a certain amount of "cramming/jamming/slamming action" that occurs when the bolt under return spring pressure slams shut on a round of ammunition. Sometimes, it's enough and sometimes it ain't. Depending on the individual round of ammo. But, with that............comes the possibility that you might actually jam a round in the chamber and totally bring things to a stop. You might be wondering WTF is he talking about? OK........the recoil spring has a lot of force behind the bolt, to force a round into the chamber. And, you know the forward bolt assist on the right side of the upper receiver? It's there...........for that "special occasion." Mind you..........I don't like the bolt assist idea all that much. Some (like me) would rather just eject an offending round before using the forward assist. Under ideal conditions............your ammo should be carefully crafted so that you'll NEVER have to use it. But, it's there. Now..........the other alternative would be to pull down and re-make the ammo. Some might try to run the loaded round through a re-sizer die, again. But, with the bullet in the neck, I doubt that your die (or mine) would be able to handle it. Been there done that. 
Aloha, Mark PS...........I might even try a little experiment. Sandwich a round between two steel plates. Then, try rolling the round between the two plates w/ a little bit of body pressure on it. Maybe it'll be enough to get the shoulder area back enough. If it doesn't work.........oh well. NEXT TIME: Always use your gauge to check your ammo. Or, use it more frequently during your "spot" checks. Also, trimming your brass to a consistent length has an advantage/purpose. |
|
Mark, thanks for your reply.
There is a certain amount of "cramming/jamming/slamming action" that occurs when the bolt under return spring pressure slams shut on a round of ammunition. Sometimes, it's enough and sometimes it ain't. Depending on the individual round of ammo.
what gets me is that even with the little ridge it is just to spec. all the other cases i have are under spec including all the factory ammo i have. the more that i think about it i am really thinking about breaking it down and tossing the brass (w/ new primers in them). the thing that really bugs me is that it is all primed already. Some might try to run the loaded round through a re-sizer die, again. But, with the bullet in the neck, I doubt that your die (or mine) would be able to handle it. Been there done that.
I have already tried this actually. I pulled the pin on the neck expander and then tried to run it though the die. I now have a case stuck in my resizing die with a live primer and the button from the expander is now suck loose in the case. I still haven't figured out how i am going to get this out.... |
| I've had the problem of mis-sized ammo and have used a body die to slightly bump the shoulder on live rounds. Was successful for 400 rnds. Or you could tear them down and salvage all the components, even the primers. This is where a collet bullet puller shines. |
|
So, you learned the importance of uniform trim length and crimping.
If the cartridges are sticky in the chamber, you can choose to shoot them or break them down. Problem is, you may find one that won't eject easily and jams the bolt closed. The primers have not been wasted if you decide to break these cartridges down. You have two choices; deprime the cases and reuse the primers, or better, resize the cases after removing the expander ball and depriming pin, leaving the primer installed. I recommend the second approach. When these resized cases are loaded, skip the crimp, it's not necessary. By the way, running a loaded cartridge through a die that sizes the case neck indicates that the details have not been thought through. But, people will continue to try that dodge with hope it works. If the cartridge doesn't get stuck in the die, there's no possible way a bullet that has been squished down to a smaller diameter should be a problem. 
edited to temper my comment. |
Are you using a die that performs both SEAT & CRIMP? 
The only time I've had shoulder deformation issues is when something got whacked out on my powder charge station, and the cases were getting smooshed a bit. I'd definitely pull those apart, even if they fit into a headspace guage. |
|
For cases that are not the same length, the Lee FCD, Factory Crimp Die is for you.
Adjust the seat/crimp die up so that it no longer crimps. Screw seater adjustment down to correct OAL. Use the FCD to crimp. It uses a collet to crimp, and works with various case lengths. What you have done here is separate the seating and crimping by using 2 seperate dies. The die makers sell 2 die sets because they are cheaper, but harder for a new reloader to adjust. You will have better results and not have buckled cases when you separate seating and crimping. Or you could choose to not crimp, as AeroE suggests. The choice is yours. What I do is use a FCD to crimp FMJBT's that are seated to mid cannelure. With everything else, I do not crimp. Good luck |
| Just wanted to add to this and not clutter the forum with a new thread but what happens if you incorrectly resize the .223 cases? I set mine up to the book but I must have done something wrong as my brass will not chamber worth a damn. I used boat tail projectiles so it's not that they are needing to be trimmed and there is no crimp variations or OAL issues. I did notice that on my necks of the cartridge (outside the case with projectile seated) I did it was @ .255 where as factory ammo was at .244ish. The OAL of my cases after sizing are at 1.76 but it's the neck that stops them from chambering. Any ideas what went so horribly wrong? When I set up the resizing/depriming die I raised the ram until it touched the shellplate then backed it off about 1/4 turn |
|
Quoted:
thanks flashdry3. i will look into that. i am only loading BTFMJ rounds now so i was wanting to crimp them. i just didn't like the idea of the round being forced up that feedramp with nothing to make sure the bullet doesn't seat back farther. So do you think that all of us who don't crimp our gas gun ammo are clueless? What makes sure that "the bullet doesn't seat back farther" is case neck tension. Some handloaders remove the case neck expander ball/plug to ensure this; i never have. Many handloaders, including myself, have deformed cases by not setting-up the bullet seating die properly. As suggested above, the deformed cases can easily be salvaged by emptying and resizing. Pull the bullets with a collet-type puller and transfer the bullet and powder to a prepared case. Instead of using your rifle's chamber as a case gage, why not buy one? I have a Wilson Case Gage for every caliber of bottle-necked round that I reload, and use them to set up my dies. |
|
Quoted:
So do you think that all of us who don't crimp our gas gun ammo are clueless? What makes sure that "the bullet doesn't seat back farther" is case neck tension. Some handloaders remove the case neck expander ball/plug to ensure this; i never have. Many handloaders, including myself, have deformed cases by not setting-up the bullet seating die properly. As suggested above, the deformed cases can easily be salvaged by emptying and resizing. Pull the bullets with a collet-type puller and transfer the bullet and powder to a prepared case. Instead of using your rifle's chamber as a case gage, why not buy one? I have a Wilson Case Gage for every caliber of bottle-necked round that I reload, and use them to set up my dies. i was planning on ordering 1 but haven't yet. i was borrowing someone elses but they needed it back. i was told by someone else that for BT's you should crimp them since there tends to be less of the bullet for the neck to grab a hold of but for non-BT's that it is ok to not crimp. I pulled the bullets with a hammer tonight (saved the bullet and powder) and then resized the cases. all the cases will now chamber without issue but the case neck lenght is all over the place. I need to find a way to cut them to something standard but my cutter won't fit in the case right now since i didn't use an expander with i resized. |
|
One thing you can try is before actually charging a case much less even putting a primer in there is you can make sure the brass chambers, then you can prime and charge. but before I seat my bullets I usually have a few pieces of brass sized with no primers and seat a bullet to make a dummy round. and use this to make sure the die is set properly as well as to make sure that the rounds I will be finishing will function.
FWIW just my thoughts Edit: forgot to mention the main reason for me to do this is because I have a single stage press and it is the standard one not a breech lock or a LNL so I have to reset the dies and check that everything is ok everytime |
|
So do you think that all of us who don't crimp our gas gun ammo are clueless?
I think clueless is a little strong.  The original Mil Spec for M193 MIL-C-9963F was greater than 35 lbsf minimum retention between bullet and case.
The Mil Spec. for M855 / SS109 MIL-C-63989C is 45 lbsf minimum retention between bullet and case. If you can control your process to assure those numbers by neck tension alone then by all means do it. As you can see below, even some fresh factory loads cannot do it. You can roll crimp using the seater/crimper die successfully by first trimming all cases to the same length (no short ones and long ones in the mix). Second, split the seat/crimp process into two operations. Batch seat, then come back and batch crimp. Or, you can try the Lee FCD. I agree with using the case gage. And, use it often to assure the crimp operation is not bulging the shoulder. I hate it when that happens. 
|
|
Quoted:
Just wanted to add to this and not clutter the forum with a new thread but what happens if you incorrectly resize the .223 cases? I set mine up to the book but I must have done something wrong as my brass will not chamber worth a damn. I used boat tail projectiles so it's not that they are needing to be trimmed and there is no crimp variations or OAL issues. I did notice that on my necks of the cartridge (outside the case with projectile seated) I did it was @ .255 where as factory ammo was at .244ish. The OAL of my cases after sizing are at 1.76 but it's the neck that stops them from chambering. Any ideas what went so horribly wrong? When I set up the resizing/depriming die I raised the ram until it touched the shellplate then backed it off about 1/4 turn My blue added. Re-read, how to set up your dies. Most instructions will say to touch the shell holder to the die and screw in another 1/8 to whatever turn. That will give a little "cam over." IMHO...........use a case gauge. It'll make things a lot easier for you. For those who don't know about it.........IMHO…………"the secret" to re-loading a bottle neck cartridge for a gas gun is to gauge your re-sized brass. There are many different brands and ways to gauge your re-loads.
Examples…….. http://www.sinclairintl.com/prod_detail_list/Case-Gauges-Headspace-Tools This is how I do mine. 6) I use a single station press (RCBS Rock Chucker). You could use a progressive Dillon IF you wanted to. It's a personal choice. But, with whatever press you choose, consider shell plate/shell holder and/or press "flex.” I use a regular FL size/de-capper die, NOT the small base dies. To begin, lube your cases. Then, FL size and de-cap, 1 or 2 cases for a test. Gauge the re-sized case(s), to confirm that the "correct re-size" has been achieved. I use a Forster Products case gauge (the Wilson or Dillon case gauges are also popular choices). Insert a case into the case gauge. The headstamped end of the case, needs to be at or between the high and low cuts on the gauge, to pass. This checks for the "correct re-size." While the other end, is used to check if the case will need to be trimmed (a job for later on). IF, it’s not the “correct re-size,” your die setting will need adjustment. Lower the ram and simply screw the die in or out a little. Don’t forget about the lock nut. Then, re-size another couple of test cases and check your work again. Repeat the test and adjustments, as needed. When you're satisfied that your test cases are properly re-sized, do the entire lot (remember to test some cases throughout the run). What you do, or don't do, is up to you. Aloha, Mark PS..............Die Adjustments http://www.chuckhawks.com/adjust_reloading_dies.htm |
|
I used boat tail projectiles so it's not that they are needing to be trimmed and there is no crimp variations or OAL issues. I did notice that on my necks of the cartridge (outside the case with projectile seated) I did it was @ .255 where as factory ammo was at .244ish.
Somethin ain't right here! Cases for boat tailed projectiles still need to be sized, necks expanded, cases trimmed, mouth chamfered. Unless one knows exactly the distance from the end of the neck clearance diameter in the chamber to the closed bolt face, one should really concentrate on holding trim to 1.750+/-.010 or 1.758 +/-.002 for AR's. Unless one can carefully control the seating force pushing a boat tail bullet into a case mouth that has been resized on the OD but not the ID, one can overload the relatively soft brass in the neck and shoulder and cause the shoulder to bulge, not enough to detect visually, but enough to be a PITA when trying to feed it into the rifle chamber. And, factory ammo cannot be .244ish because the bullet itself is .224. Neck thickness is .015.012. So .224 + (2 x .012) = ..254.248. [up too late again, fixed that] 
Back to the regularly scheduled program: Use the case gage and use it often to avoid stuck case problems. |
I am not saying you are wrong, but here is a picture of a factory Centurian M193 round. Measurement taken just under the crimp on the brass itself
and side by side with my reload 
I will stop wasting time and get a case gauge though, just couldn't find one in stock locally and was trying to avoid shipping but I placed an order with Dillon for one. |
|
Quoted:
Just wanted to add to this and not clutter the forum with a new thread but what happens if you incorrectly resize the .223 cases? I set mine up to the book but I must have done something wrong as my brass will not chamber worth a damn. I used boat tail projectiles so it's not that they are needing to be trimmed and there is no crimp variations or OAL issues. I did notice that on my necks of the cartridge (outside the case with projectile seated) I did it was @ .255 where as factory ammo was at .244ish. The OAL of my cases after sizing are at 1.76 but it's the neck that stops them from chambering. Any ideas what went so horribly wrong? When I set up the resizing/depriming die I raised the ram until it touched the shellplate then backed it off about 1/4 turn You've probably run into a common problem, and it's simple to fix. When an expander ball is used in a sizer die, the inside of the case mouths needs just the tiniest bit of lube. When the expander ball is withdrawn from the case, it stretches the case shoulder out undoing part of the sizing step if there is too much drag in the neck. Another way to avoid this problem is by removing the expander ball altogether if the necks are round. This requires decapping in a separate step. I'm curious about which cases you are loading. The nominal neck thickness is about 0.012 inches, but some makes will go at least as high as 0.014 inches; I don't recall measuring cases thicker than that dimension, but anything is possible. I re-read your other posts. The advice above applies to the problem with extraction. The case is nearly a net fit in the rifle's chamber and is binding up bolt motion. Double check the diameter of the bullets you're loading to be on the safe side. It's possible you have either have brass with exceptionally thick necks, some oversize bullets, or maybe even some 0.227 diameter bullets (for .22 Savage). |
|
Quoted:
Another way to avoid this problem is by removing the expander ball altogether if the necks are round. This requires decapping in a separate step. Not necessarily. My dillon die has the expander ball removed, and the decap pin threaded back in. I do it all in one shot WITHOUT the expander ball. Then on my second tool head for .223, I run a RCBS neck sizing die in station one. Since it sizes on the down stroke, I don't suffer from expander ball case stretch. One could also run a neck sizing die on station 2 of his resizing tool head, but I kinda like getting the neck sized right before I seat the bullet so I know it's freshly trued up. w00t! |
Armory Sponsor