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Posted: 6/29/2009 8:13:45 PM EDT
| Getting closer to start working up loads for .223 and find I have 60 Federal plain primer (Value Pak) and 20 Federal with green around primer (American Eagle) can I assume (I had to use that word) the brass is the same? Thanks |
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Getting closer to start working up loads for .223 and find I have 60 Federal plain primer (Value Pak) and 20 Federal with green around primer (American Eagle) can I assume (I had to use that word) the brass is the same? Thanks Your post is a bit difficult to unravel. So, you have 60 unfired factory rounds or 60 primered, but not fired cases? And 20 more with green stuff around primer (might this be a sealer?). ATK has so munged the marketing and marking of their Federal 5.56 x 45mm commercial or ex-military ammo recently , that it is difficult to tell what you might have. Any lettering and dates on the head stamps? What weight of bullet is involved, if any? |
| Sorry if I wasn't clear. 60 fired, factory ammo brass from Federal Value Paks and 20 fired factory ammo brass from Federal American Eagle. At the range I put all fired brass back into their original boxes. The American Eagle cases have something green between the primer and primer pocket. Could be sealer or just something to identify the American Eagle brand, I don't know. Like I said earlier they're all factory loaded cartridges from retail stores so I know they are not anybody elses handloads. Question is since they are all mfg. by Federal is the brass the same? Once I tumble, resize, deprime and clean the primer pockets they will all have the same headstamp and look exactly the same. |
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Well, just refurb. and try them. Plan on 3 max reload cycles, but you may get more before problems occur. AeroE says tap the edge of the case on a hard surface after the new primer is installed and see if it is firmly held (no powder or bullet attached at this point).
There are other things to do to monitor case life. Get an RCBS precision mike (on sale now at Midway) and record the as-fired shoulder-to-case head face distance (as fired in your rifle). Try to limit shoulder bump back in your sizing die to a few thousandths below as fired, by adjusting the position of the die relative to the shell holder with ram at top dead center. Check web thickness as explained by Dryflash in his article in the above links. Set powder loads to limit case peak pressure to SAAMI Maximums, not NATO Maximums. Note: some reloaders who run thousands per month, are not interested in case by case TLC like this. |
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Quoted: Weigh a number of them from each box before you deprime, then fill them with water and weigh again. If the dry weight is close and the water weight (volume) is close, I'd use them as the same brass. I have weighed my brass in the past but never thought of weighing with water to see if the volume is the same. If they are all shot in the same rifle then no need to size first as they are all expanded to the same chamber dimensions. But full length sizing and trimming to the same length would be an extra step to ensure apples-apples comparison. I'm going to try this next time I am sorting cases! Thanks for the tip. |
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What's the year of the brass?
If your value pack is a recent wally world purchase, you're fine. It's some of my favorite brass. Anything from the American Eagle red box is fine too. The most recent Fed bulk pack brass is almost my favorite brass out there..... Second only to Speer .223 brass. |
| Thanks Markm. All brass is recent (past 3 mo) purchase. American Eagle in the red box from Academy and Value packs from Wally World. I forgot to mention they are all .223 totally seperate from my empty / fired WW 5.56. I have been reloading .38 & .44 rem mag. for about 20 years but this S & W MP 15 5.56 has so many more variables that I just want to do it right. |
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The "green stuff" is a lacquer sealant. It doesn't really identify the load, but at least you know what it is. Also, some of those rounds MAY have crimped primers. It's not a problem, just a minor hassle, especially when you're dealing with just a few cases.
Here is a picture to help you see the crimp: 
Note the slight ring around the primer. You can see a black space (shadow) between the primer cup and the primer pocket, and you can see the brass displaced by the ring crimp just outside the black shadow. Crimp removal is no biggie, but you need to do it to brass that has the crimp, or seating primers will be "interesting" (and not in a good way!). More info about crimps in this thread. |
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Bill,
the reason I responded that way was to show that even the most 1X Federal suspicious brass, if treated with some TLC, can be used for reloading. Some have lost confidence in the Federal brass because of earlier problems (low web thickness, soft case heads, etc.). Now it appears that ATK has clouded the distinction between their ex-military or military surplus cases (if there ever was such a thing) and their Federal commercial .223 brass. So the suspicions, once reserved for the 1X FC brass, may be considered by some now applicable to all ATK 5.56 & .223 brass. |
| yes alot of the american eagle here has crimped primers,so if i need brass i go get some yellow value box remmy or green and white box emmy as alot of the winchester and federal stuff is crimped here and i am not set up right now to remove the crimp from 1k-2k of brass . |
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Bill, the reason I responded that way was to show that even the most 1X Federal suspicious brass, if treated with some TLC, can be used for reloading. Some have lost confidence in the Federal brass because of earlier problems (low web thickness, soft case heads, etc.). Now it appears that ATK has clouded the distinction between their ex-military or military surplus cases (if there ever was such a thing) and their Federal commercial .223 brass. So the suspicions, once reserved for the 1X FC brass, may be considered by some now applicable to all ATK 5.56 & .223 brass. Old news, no longer valid. Current production is, according to all reports, good to go. |
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Bill, the reason I responded that way was to show that even the most 1X Federal suspicious brass, if treated with some TLC, can be used for reloading. Some have lost confidence in the Federal brass because of earlier problems (low web thickness, soft case heads, etc.). Now it appears that ATK has clouded the distinction between their ex-military or military surplus cases (if there ever was such a thing) and their Federal commercial .223 brass. So the suspicions, once reserved for the 1X FC brass, may be considered by some now applicable to all ATK 5.56 & .223 brass. Old news, no longer valid. Current production is, according to all reports, good to go. Nonetheless, dryflash3's treatment of the weak web subject should be studied by those who may be considering using 1X FC brass. |
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Bill, the reason I responded that way was to show that even the most 1X Federal suspicious brass, if treated with some TLC, can be used for reloading. Some have lost confidence in the Federal brass because of earlier problems (low web thickness, soft case heads, etc.). Now it appears that ATK has clouded the distinction between their ex-military or military surplus cases (if there ever was such a thing) and their Federal commercial .223 brass. So the suspicions, once reserved for the 1X FC brass, may be considered by some now applicable to all ATK 5.56 & .223 brass. Old news, no longer valid. Current production is, according to all reports, good to go. Nonetheless, dryflash3's treatment of the weak web subject should be studied by those who may be considering using 1X FC brass. Sure, you should inspect EVERY case you intend to to reload. And with Federal, unless you know for certain that a particular has a thick web, you'd want to inspect that area more closely. On the other hand, I don't think that being suspicious of GI brass is warranted. |
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Bill, the reason I responded that way was to show that even the most 1X Federal suspicious brass, if treated with some TLC, can be used for reloading. Some have lost confidence in the Federal brass because of earlier problems (low web thickness, soft case heads, etc.). Now it appears that ATK has clouded the distinction between their ex-military or military surplus cases (if there ever was such a thing) and their Federal commercial .223 brass. So the suspicions, once reserved for the 1X FC brass, may be considered by some now applicable to all ATK 5.56 & .223 brass. Old news, no longer valid. Current production is, according to all reports, good to go. Nonetheless, dryflash3's treatment of the weak web subject should be studied by those who may be considering using 1X FC brass. Sure, you should inspect EVERY case you intend to to reload. And with Federal, unless you know for certain that a particular has a thick web, you'd want to inspect that area more closely. On the other hand, I don't think that being suspicious of GI brass is warranted. My issue is with the older FC 223 brass. Here are a couple of pics of case head/web measurement. 
Weak web. should be .175 min. 
2 inch rod to measure head/web. 
Zero caliper, measure head/web. Another weak case. 
Other cases to compare to. For my use, I recycle all head/webs under .175. Weak and dangerous IMHO. Head/webs from .175 to .184 I keep for SHTF, never plan on loading these. Head/webs over .185 are GTG and I will load and shoot these in my bolt action 223 rifle. Where did I get the .185 number? I have shot thousands of 223 reloads using LC brass in my AR's. LC head/webs measure .185+. This is my system, anyone else is free to do as they please. My thanks to Kieth_J for the head/web measuring system and his earlier posts on this subject. |
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Dryflash
I have recently sorted about 6K .223 cases. I have had the brass for several years so everything is older. About 600 of them are FC. I don't want to throw them out unless I have to. Can you go into more specific instructions on your rod and how to measure the web? Is it as simple of getting a 2 inch long rod that will fit into the case on one end and the primer pocket on the other end and then cutting it and then inserting both lengths and then measuring? |
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dryflash I have recently sorted about 6K .223 cases. I have had the brass for several years so everything is older. About 600 of them are FC. I don't want to throw them out unless I have to. Can you go into more specific instructions on your rod and how to measure the web? Is it as simple of getting a 2 inch long rod that will fit into the case on one end and the primer pocket on the other end and then cutting it and then inserting both lengths and then measuring? Sure, first pic (in my original post) gives the dimension of the head/web "gauge". 2 inches is the length. Doesn't have to be exact, because you are going to zero caliper while measuring the gauge. The pics show my first gauge which was stainless steel and too hard to drill. When using this gauge, cases had to be deprimmed and flashole deburred. So I made another from brass rod. 2" long and 3/16 (.187) in diameter. Drilled both ends to clear flashole burr. See new pic. 
Both ends were drilled so that you didn't have to worry about which end of gauge to insert into case. To measure head/web, Make a gauge, insert into caliper and zero caliber. Insert gauge into case to be measured. Should be .175 or more. For me, .185 or more. Measure some of your other brass to compare FC to LC or Win. Hope your brass is all good. 
To answer your other question, only 1 gauge is used. Primer pocket is not measured. Caliper rests on the case head above primer pocket. Take a look at the pics in my first post where I measured some cut away cases I made. Primer pocket is checked when you seat primer. If very little pressure is needed to seat primer, that's a bad case. In my experience, FC rifle brass (all calibers I have reloaded for) get loose primer pockets after a few reloads. |
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After seeing your brass example, and lacking either equipment or tools to properly end drill brass rod, I came up with a different solution. I bought 3/16 brass tubing from the hobby store. I'll cut a 2" chunk and square the ends, and that should work out well for me-without me having to find some machinist to drill the rod stock for me.
So I made another from brass rod. 2" long and 3/16 (.187) in diameter. Drilled both ends to clear flashole burr. See new pic. http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg272/dryflash3/P7010219.jpg Both ends were drilled so that you didn't have to worry about which end of gauge to insert into case. I'll post pictures when I get my first attempt finished. Edited to remove non-essential text. |
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After seeing your brass example, and lacking either equipment or tools to properly end drill brass rod, I came up with a different solution. I bought 3/16 brass tubing from the hobby store. I'll cut a 2" chunk and square the ends, and that should work out well for me-without me having to find some machinist to drill the rod stock for me.
So I made another from brass rod. 2" long and 3/16 (.187) in diameter. Drilled both ends to clear flashole burr. See new pic. http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg272/dryflash3/P7010219.jpg Both ends were drilled so that you didn't have to worry about which end of gauge to insert into case. I'll post pictures when I get my first attempt finished. Edited to remove non-essential text. Excellent solution. I drilled out the ends of my brass rod with a cordless drill and 1/8 drill bit. |
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I have the klutz so badly that I don't think I could manage to keep anything centered or straight. Tubing does it all for me, so I won't trip over anything while I try to cut it. Quoted:
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After seeing your brass example, and lacking either equipment or tools to properly end drill brass rod, I came up with a different solution. I bought 3/16 brass tubing from the hobby store. I'll cut a 2" chunk and square the ends, and that should work out well for me-without me having to find some machinist to drill the rod stock for me.
So I made another from brass rod. 2" long and 3/16 (.187) in diameter. Drilled both ends to clear flashole burr. See new pic. http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg272/dryflash3/P7010219.jpg Both ends were drilled so that you didn't have to worry about which end of gauge to insert into case. I'll post pictures when I get my first attempt finished. Edited to remove non-essential text. Excellent solution. I drilled out the ends of my brass rod with a cordless drill and 1/8 drill bit. 
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