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Posted: 5/29/2009 9:31:03 AM EDT
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http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=75&t=877365&page=1 Looks like this guy got lucky and checked his powder just before it decided to spontaneously combust.  I finally found the source of the flash rust on everything in my supply cabinet. My opened but unused 8 lb keg of surplus 5010 powder has entered some sort of decomposition stage and I'm quite concerned. I noticed that when I bumped the bottle it made noise like the powder was tumbling inside. I pulled it out and opened it and was greeted by venting orange/brown gas or particulate dust. The inner foam seal crumbles if you even touch it, and it vents more gas/dust if you even move it. Right now it is sitting in the middle of my dirt back yard. What do I do to safely neutralize it? It is obviously unusable, but I'm worried it is unstable. I don't want to oil-bath it unless I'm sure it's non-reactive The can had been opened for inspection, but the lid was screwed back shut and the foam seal inside the lid was intact. What I found odd is that I have scrap pull down powder of approximately the same type that has been stored open to the atmosphere and it is just fine. I use it to fry ant hills. Ths stuff was opened one then resealed and is now totally useless. Quoted: FAIL!!! I got home from from work tonight and was greeted by my neighbors who informed me the fire department just left. At 5:30 this evening, there was some sort of explosion in my side yard... The jug was sealed and it was only about 80° outside. Evidently it was VERY loud and 4 or 5 neighbors came to check it out. Note the burnt wood sticking over the fence 6' above ground zero.  |
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Quoted: Have to be a team member to go to the link?? Takes me to the main page... Mike Yep. Didn't realize it was in the team forum. Sorry bout that. Brief overview: Powder Smoking and giving off orange dust. Place powder outside. (Did not remove from container or soak in water for some reason). Went to work. Came home to Fire Dept putting out fire from exploding powder canister. |
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Quoted: Why would something like this be in the team forum? Wouldn't want to warn non-paying members now would we?  Why not? Typically stuff that is in team stays in team. I broke the rules for you because I felt it may warrant a safety check/reminder for the reloaders. |
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Quoted:
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Why would something like this be in the team forum? Wouldn't want to warn non-paying members now would we? Why not? Typically stuff that is in team stays in team. I broke the rules for you because I felt it may warrant a safety check/reminder for the reloaders. 
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why would something like this be in the team forum? Wouldn't want to warn non-paying members now would we? Why not? Typically stuff that is in team stays in team. I broke the rules for you because I felt it may warrant a safety check/reminder for the reloaders. Yourself. |
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Quoted:
You guys do what you like and yes I do to appreciate it being posted here. I just found it odd that it was a team member discussion first, that's all. LOL, WUT? So what if it started in team first. It could have started as a conversation between two eskimos in an igloo. There's no requirement to post stuff into the free area first, before it goes to the secret team area. There isn't even a requirement to post it on this site at all. It could have been posted elsewhere on the interwebz. Or, it could have stayed private between our two eskimo friends. 
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If it is surpluss powder to me that would indicate .mil surplus, not totaly sure but I would think that some of the .mil powder would be different than what we can buy. If that is the case then I could see that happening.
oh and BTW going from a member to a team member will not mess up your post count. |
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Reposting my comments for the benefit of non-team guys... Smokeless CAN and DOES self-ignite from degradation. It usually is fine if left alone but once it starts degrading, opening the container lets in air which accelerated the decomposition. That orange gas is NO2 and NO3. The temperatures were not high enough to liberate the oxygen and cause a run-away. But once the lid was popped, the extra air pushed it over the top. Boom. And since it was also self-heating, the burn rate of this normally slow propellent was greatly enhanced. ... The problem starts when the cellulose is first nitrated. The cellulose, usually a processed wood pulp that has undergone the Kraft process to remove most lignin (nature's "glue"). The process uses concentrated nitric and sulfuric acids and takes some time. The pulp doesn't dissolve, the OHs' (hydroxyls) H (hydrogen) are replaced with NO2 BUT the cellulose does not dissolve, remaining much like the original pulp form. This gives the acids places to "hide". And because the hydroxyl terminals are now replaced, the resulting nitrocellulose becomes hydrophobic. This traps the acid, using coarse pulp can add to greater trapping effect. Naturally, this raw material is well washed but even the best of washing will not remove all acids. These trapped acids are neutralized in further processing after the nitrocellulose is dissolved in acetone/ethyl acetate or the proprietary solvents (Cellulosolves TM) by addition of alkaline materials...remember the gas tube clogging issue with early Ball Powders in the M16? That was from calcium carbonate, added for the very purpose of acid neutralization. Better stabilizers/preservatives are now used, mostly organic amines. The powder used in early M193 ammo had been made from reclaimed propellents, a common practice. Only this reclaimed powder/propellent already had calcium carbonate, leading to this problem. Powder oxidizes naturally, that solvent smell is residual solvents which slowly displace oxygen from the internal voids of the powder. Ball Powder and sphericals are formed under water, the solvents partition into the water, hardening instantly. But if left too long in the water, some of the organic amines can be leached out along with too much solvent, leading to a dry grain that has poor stability. Once the powder starts to emit the orange vapor, the rusty look, it cannot be salvaged, the acids produced start a chain reaction. Usually, the limited oxygen in things like loaded ammo prevents run-away. But in this case, just opening the container let in enough. And because of the mass, it automatically ignited. Now, most powders are "artifically aged" for testing using a heated, oxygenated "cell". Exposure to acids is also done in some cases. But sometimes, the artifical aging process can fail to identify a bad lot. Or improper storage after the powder has left the manufacturer can cause premature failure. Yes, they could have made other mistakes, like not adding any stabilizers although this is highly unlikely. A sample of the raw nitrocellulose is ground with water, then titrated with a base to determine the acid number, a measure of the residual acid |
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Thanks KiethJ! rg1, it seems another team member had the same problem as the OP. He went to check his powder just because of this thread and found it in the middle stages of the breakdown. Question regarding any ammunition loaded with this powder; Is it going to have the same problem once loaded and stored? What happens to it when/if it starts breaking down? |
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Quoted: Thanks KiethJ! rg1, it seems another team member had the same problem as the OP. He went to check his powder just because of this thread and found it in the middle stages of the breakdown. Question regarding any ammunition loaded with this powder; Is it going to have the same problem once loaded and stored? What happens to it when/if it starts breaking down? The brass will corrode, HORRIBLY. It takes only days to corrode. But the act of charging a case, then seating the bullet, seals the case effectively halting further degradation. I have a .30-40 US round, loaded 92 years ago. Powder is still fine. |
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Quoted:
Thanks KiethJ! rg1, it seems another team member had the same problem as the OP. He went to check his powder just because of this thread and found it in the middle stages of the breakdown. Question regarding any ammunition loaded with this powder; Is it going to have the same problem once loaded and stored? What happens to it when/if it starts breaking down? I am the other guy that found this, I have been loading for over 25 yrs and this is the first time I have seen anything like this. The 5010 belongs to a friend and I have been storing it with my powder as we load his ammo here. I disposed of 2 out of the 6 kegs today. I have checked all of my commercial powder and do not see any problems with any of it. The bad thing is I have been away for the last week and read this while on vacation, came home today and the first thing I did was check it. When I opened the first one it emitted a smoke like vapor and the powder had a golden tint to it, the second one had the tint but no vapor. I had noticed some very quick rusting on a hinge in my storage cabinet but thought nothing of it. Things like this confirm what I have always said about reloading, you never stop learning. |
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Quoted: Thanks for chiming in. Quoted: Thanks KiethJ! rg1, it seems another team member had the same problem as the OP. He went to check his powder just because of this thread and found it in the middle stages of the breakdown. Question regarding any ammunition loaded with this powder; Is it going to have the same problem once loaded and stored? What happens to it when/if it starts breaking down? I am the other guy that found this, I have been loading for over 25 yrs and this is the first time I have seen anything like this. The 5010 belongs to a friend and I have been storing it with my powder as we load his ammo here. I disposed of 2 out of the 6 kegs today and he is going to find somewhere else to keep the other ones. I have checked all of my commercial powder and do not see any problems with any of it. The bad thing is I have been away for the last week and read this while on vacation, came home today and the first thing I did was check it. When I opened the first one it emitted a smoke like vapor and the powder had a golden tint to it, the second one had the tint but no vapor. I had noticed some very quick rusting on a hinge in my storage cabinet but thought nothing of it. Things like this confirm what I have always said about reloading, you never stop learning. Did you happen to notice if the lot numbers were the same for all the 5010 containers? |
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Quoted:
For curosity here, if you do notice the powder going bad. Would it be safe to spread out on the lawn as a fertilizer?? would it start to combust a lot faster if you were spreading the powder on the lawn then watering?? Spontaneous combustion of deteriorating powder is only going to happen "in mass" storage like a half pound or more, not an issue in loaded rounds. The decomposition creates heat which warms the powder accelerating the decomposition that heats the powder ... you get the idea. If the heat can dissipate before the powder gets hot, as in loaded rounds or small containers not a problem. Take an 8 lb deteriorating bottle and place it outside on a hot day or in the sun and then you get a runaway reaction. So spread it out over the ground or, as I do, make a long trail of it and add a match. |
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