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Posted: 9/24/2008 9:00:24 AM EDT
get on me if you want but im a newb to this topic... so i'm looking into reloading machines cause i can see the price of ammo will only go up. i'm not really sure what i need to start out with. i've checked out dillon precision any pros/cons w/ them? i'm planning on .223. any help/tips would be appreciated so i can be on my way to become an ammo whore like the best of you. I edited the title to help with searches. dryflash3
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I have a Dillon 550B with which I reload .223 and .45 (so far). I bought mine at Sportsman's Warehouse when the cost of good ammo = the cost of a machine. They are GREAT for reloading large volumes of ammo. They are pretty picky about setting things up just right. But once you get set up, you are GTG. Remember to keep it well-lubed. And have a squirt tube of graphite lube for the primer system. Don't use liquid lube there. |
| Stuff you need is here, decide if you want to start out by dabbling (Bare Bones method), go the single stage or turret press route, or jump in with a progressive press www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=486 |
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I would recommend starting out bare bones and make sure it is for you. I have been reloading with my bare bones for 20+ years now. It's slow, but it gets the job done. I just roll my portable bench out in front of the tv and crank away. 100 rounds per sitting is no big deal. It's about the only time I watch tv with my family. I am interested in a progressive mass production, but not a high priority. Just my .02 Whatever you do, make it fun for you and not a chore. Take your time, you will enjoy the consistant quality if you do. |
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I use a XL650 Dillon for .40. .45, .223 and by modifing the loading process, for .308. For the mass produced stuff I don't think you can beat it. (JMHO) Unfortunately, .223 is the biggest PITA to deal with, lots of case prep. But once you are set up, man can you knock out a bunch of ammo. If you can make it fun (at least not too much of a chore) you'll enjoy another shooting hobby. Again unfortunately, my experience is that you won't save a dime, you'll just get to shoot a whole lot more! On the down side, you will become a brass whore though, it all begins there. Have fun and try to find a friend who has an example of the machine you are interested in so you can put your hands on it. As far as Dillon is concerned, I love it. Best no BS warranty in the business and the machine works. (It helps that I live nearby their shop so I have easy access to assistance) |
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Part 1 To begin on your path to re-loading. My suggestions would be to........... Get a hold of some books and check the Internet. Invest in a re-loading manual (or several). LEARN the processes that one must go through in order to produce a round of ammunition. Get an idea of how certain jobs are done and take notes of the choices available to do the job. Get a mentor and/or go to classes that might be held by the local gun shop or gun club. Meanwhile, here are some good sites to learn from....... Safety….. hunting.about.com/library/weekly/aareloadsafetya.htm What you’ll need….. www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=33 Overview of the Handloading Ammo process….. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handloading Re-Loading Pistol Ammo….. www.reloadammo.com/relsteps.htm Re-Loading Rifle Ammo….. rifle-company.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=911 _______________________________________________ >KNOW THAT: Handloading comes with some RISK. An individual needs to gauge his or her own RISK TOLERANCE LEVEL to each situation in their life. What's acceptable to ME........may not be, to someone else. The Manual writers/publishers and editors, decide what's their safety margin and each will have their own threshold for safety. Load data between various manuals will vary. >KNOW THAT: Handloading is PART EXPERIMENTATION. Each manual contains many WARNINGS. One popular warning, is against making any “substitution” of components, as it may be dangerous. Try reading this subject: How do changing various components affect chamber pressure and velocity? www.frfrogspad.com/miscelld.htm#components Then..........from SPEER.......... 
So, what do you do, if you don’t have the exact re-loading components as mention in the book? IF you have a low risk tolerance level......perhaps, you’ll wait until you have the exact components? But, doing that isn’t always practical. For ME………..I'd take into consideration my RISK TOLERANCE LEVEL and maybe EXPERIMENT a little or not. I'd search my available resources and various internet web sites. Perhaps I’d even contact the manufacturer. I'd attempt to figure out a SAFE (acceptable to ME) plan of action, using the available data. ALWAYS REMEMBERING TO: Start low and work your way up. >LASTLY……..KNOW THAT: YMWV. Sometimes things work out and sometimes they don’t. Most re-loaders will not just "pick one" from the book or reproduce someone else’s load and expect, "the best results." They work up their loads because, they know, "YMWV." _______________________________________________ WARNING: My way of doing things may not be suitable to some of the other folks out there........so, take it for what it's worth.......this is/was, only my advice, which you got for FREE, so it's only worth that much (if anything at all). _______________________________________________ Aloha, Mark |
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PART 2 As a "first press," IMHO get a bench mounted single station press. LEARN the techniques and "problem solving" of re-loading. Later, IF/WHEN, you want more production......consider a progressive press. ________________________________________________ Forgive me for saying and please, "SOME OF YOU OUT THERE," don't take offense. But, for some folks it's best that they: "Learn to crawl before you walk, learn to walk before you run, learn to run before you drive or fly." Some, are smart enough to start with a progressive press and be happy. Some, come running to this forum, asking for help with their progressive press problems. Maybe, IF they had learned on a single station press, they would KNOW HOW to fix the problem. And, I'm not saying that it's BAD TO ASK for help. It’s just that, “YOU GOT TO KNOW YOUR LIMITATIONS.” ________________________________________________ The BUY LIST……… Your list should be individual to you. Buy the equipment needed to accomplish the job, at a price that YOU can afford. More than likely, there will be some amount of compromise involved. ________________________________________________ Say, you're re-loading military 5.56mm brass cases for your AR with a single station press........consider your choice(s) for: A re-loading manual (or several manuals). A Press. F/L Sizer Two Die set (or 3 die set). Shell holder. A way to clean dirty cases (liquid cleaner or tumbler/vibratory machine w/ media or a wipe down w/rag). A way to de-prime military cases (regular die or universal de-capper or hammer and anvil method). A way to de-crimp military cases (swage or ream). A way to prime cases (on press or off press). A way to lube cases (what lube and applied w/fingers or pad with lube or spray lube). A way to test your re-sized cases (case gauge or actual rifle chamber). Caliper (though, not absolutely needed if you use a case gauge). A way to trim cases (hand powered or motorized). A case de-bur/chamfer tool, if your trimmer didn't do it all in one pass. A way to measure and dispense powder (dippers or disk measure or hopper/dispenser). A way to weigh the powder (electronic or balance beam scale) Powder. Primers. Bullets. And cartridge cases. I feel that these basic tools and components will do, for simple ammunition production. Note that: The list above can be shortened or lengthened. Remember, there is more than one way to skin a cat. There are many other tools that one can purchase to do other specific jobs. It's up to YOU to choose which tools you need and which tools you want. Some tools are there to make a job simpler and some are there to hopefully make you "better" ammunition..........though, was the purchase absolutely necessary? Choose wisely. ________________________________________________ IF you're looking to go cheap (not a bad "cheap")..........IMHO, consider, "LEE." For dies.......use any brand (from a major mfn) that you like. They are basically, all of high quality. The differences are in the, "features and small parts." LEE makes good dies (and they give you a bonus: a shell holder and powder dipper w/load data chart). When re-loading bottle neck cases (.223/5.56mm) to be used in a semi auto, IMHO, buy the FULL LENGTH re-sizer, two die set. Generally, you don't need a SB die set (unless you run into trouble). IF, you want the LEE FCD they also have a three die set that includes it, for a little extra. When re-loading for straight walled pistol cases (9mm, 45 ACP, .38 Special, etc...), IMHO, buy the carbide, three die set. The carbide re-sizer will eliminate the need to lube cases. And, IF you want the LEE FCD, I believe that LEE has a four die set, for most of the popular calibers. _______________________________________________ ASSUMING, that you purchase a single stage press. Basically (For non-crimped primer pocket, rifle brass, say a batch "lot" of a 100 cases): 1) Inspect and clean the cases- a liquid bath in hot water and dish soap, will get them clean. Though, not shiny. Or, you could just wipe the cases off with a solvent dampened rag. IF you want, clean with some shine……Birchwood Casey Case Cleaning Solution (#33845 CCI) is a fast and cheap way. Mix with water (follow the directions on the package) soak the brass, drain and dry. Save the solution as it can be re-used. 2) Set up your press with the shell holder and de-capper/FL re-sizer die. 3) Lube the cases. LEE lube (#90006) can be applied with fingers. Or, buy a spray on lube from one of the "other brands." 4) Then, run some test cases through the die, it'll de-cap/re-size the brass in one pass. 5) Next, using a case gauge, check the brass to ensure that the proper re-size, has been achieved. Insert a case into the case gauge. The headstamped end of the case, needs to be at or between the high and low cuts on the gauge, to pass. This checks the headspace. While the other end, is used to check if the case will need to be trimmed (a job for later on). IF, it’s not the “correct size,” your die setting will need adjustment. Lower the ram and simply screw the die in or out a little. Don’t forget about the lock nut. Then, re-size another couple of test cases and check your work again. Repeat the test and adjustments, as needed. *IMHO…………"the secret" to re-loading a bottle neck cartridge is a case gauge. There are many different brands and ways to gauge your re-loads. I use a Forster Products case gauge (the Wilson or Dillon case gauges are also popular choices). Examples of various gauges…….. www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=REMTHT&type=store 6) When you're satisfied that your test cases are properly re-sized, do the entire lot. 7) Trimming brass. Remember the case gauge? Well, if your brass failed the gauge test, you will need to trim the brass. Or check the brass length with a caliper. The cheapest way to trim brass, is with the LEE case trimmer. You'll need the cutter & lock stub and shell holder & case length gauge tools. The assembled trimmer runs on hand power or with a drill. Once the trimming is done, use a chamfer/reamer tool (LEE #90109) to "knock off the edge" on the newly cut case necks. 8) Clean the brass to take off the lube.......repeat, Step #1. 9) Then, re-prime the cases with a new primer. The LEE auto prime hand tool makes fast work of this job. BTW, you'll need a special shell holder (not your reg. press shell holder) made especially for the LEE auto prime. OR........use your press mounted primer tool. 10) After the cases have been re-primed, place the cases in a loading block. 11) Using a simple powder measure, calibrate it to throw the weight of powder charge that you want. 12) Check the thrown weight with your scale. 13) When you're satisfied that the weight is "correct." Charge each of the cases with powder. 14) Next, remove the de-capper/re-sizer die from the press and replace it with the bullet seating die. Then, place the bullet on top of the opening of the case neck. Run the case w/bullet into the bullet seating die. 15) Inspect your rounds. You're done. ______________________________________________ IF you’re dealing with military cases (I’ll assume the primers are crimped)……..so, add these steps........... 2) With once fired military brass, this next step only has to be done once. You could de-cap primers with the standard de-cap/re-sizer die. Though due to the primer crimp, there is a high incidence of parts breakage. IMHO, de-cap the once fired military brass using either, a “universal” de-capper die or with a skinny nail/punch and anvil (with a hole in it, large enough for the old primer to fall out of, but still support the case rim). Or, buy the LEE military primer de-capper set (#90102-.30 cal., #90103-.22 cal.). Simply, run the nail/punch down through the case neck. The nail will enter the flash hole and rest against the old primer. Put the case on the anvil (old primer centered over the anvil’s hole). Then, with a hammer knock out the old primer, letting the old primer fall through the hole in the anvil. Yes, the military crimp is sometimes that stubborn. 3) Again, since we’re using once fired military brass, this next step has to be done only once. The primer crimp will need to be removed. The crimp gets either swaged or reamed/cut. My friend has a Dillon swage and I use a Lyman hand reamer/cutting tool. Both can do the job......one is cheaper. Lyman hand reamer (#7777785 Large, #7777784 Small). I do the crimp removal while watching TV. It's as simple as: pick up a case, insert the tool into the primer pocket and twist, remove case, next..... *Commercial cases, usually don't have a primer crimp to bother with. So, steps 2 and 3 can be omitted. Likewise, for the next time you load these “already treated” military cases. ________________________________________________ To adjust dies correctly.......see the link……. www.chuckhawks.com/adjust_reloading_dies.htm _______________________________________________ There are many LEE single station presses to choose from. www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1217810820.1709=/html/catalog/classic.html www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1217810820.1709=/html/catalog/rlpress1.html If you're in the market for a "kit." I like this one. www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1217810820.1709=/html/catalog/rlpress2.html#breech ________________________________________________ IMHO, a good compromise between a single station and a progressive is a Turret Press........ www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1217810820.1709=/html/catalog/turretpress.html ________________________________________________ NOTE: There are many ways to skin a cat. I tried to write this, keeping in mind a CHEAP WAY to do things. Thus, the choice of LEE products. Shop for your best prices. LEE products are frequently discounted. That being said, a good press will last a lifetime and then some. Be it a LEE or RCBS or whatever other brand. I bought a lot of my starter equipment, USED. And, I still have a lot of it. My first press was a used RCBS Jr. and I later traded it for a used RCBS Rock Chucker. My friend wanted a smaller press and it was a straight across trade. So, how could I refuse? Anyway, after a long time of using a single station press…………I up-graded. I bought a Dillon. Then later, three LEE M1000 presses (just for pistol calibers). Even after I got the progressive presses........well, just say that for ME, there will always be a job for the single station press on my bench. And, even IF (and/or WHEN) you get a progressive........you don't really gain that much IF you're re-loading bottle necked cases. BECAUSE, of the case prep steps (case lube, military primer crimps and trimming cases). However, a progressive press will REALLY SHINE when you're doing straight walled cases with carbide dies. _________________________________________________ Aloha, Mark |
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AeroE will probably shoot me, but I took a stab at editting Marks getting started tips keeping most of the original content, changing the order of a few things, and making it flow better in the spirit of getting it added to the Forum Resources. I'm not trying to steal Mark's work, just edit a bit. Mark wrote it, it's his writing. If added to the Forum Resources we can just post a link to it and save some bandwidth in the forum. Here goes: ---------------------------- Getting Started: by ma96782 Originally posted 24 September 2008: To begin on your path to re-loading. My suggestions would be to: 1) Get a hold of some books and check the Internet. 2) Invest in a re-loading manual (or several). 3) Learn the processes that one must go through in order to produce a round of ammunition. 4) Get an idea of how certain jobs are done and take notes of the choices available to do the job. 5) Get a mentor and/or go to classes that might be held by the local gun shop or gun club. Suggested sites: 1) Safety hunting.about.com/library/weekly/aareloadsafetya.htm 2) What you’ll need www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=33 3) Overview of the Handloading Ammo process en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handloading 4) Re-Loading Pistol Ammo www.reloadammo.com/relsteps.htm 5) Re-Loading Rifle Ammo rifle-company.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=911 Substitution of components: The Manual writers/publishers and editors, decide what's their safety margin and each will have their own threshold for safety. Load data between various manuals will vary. Each manual contains many WARNINGS. One popular warning, is against making any “substitution” of components, as it may be dangerous.Try reading this subject: How do changing various components affect chamber pressure and velocity? www.frfrogspad.com/miscelld.htm#components From Speer:.
So, what do you do, if you don’t have the exact re-loading components as mention in the book? It isn't always practical to wait until you have the exact components. In that case search available resources and various internet web sites. Even contact the manufacturer. Always remember to start low and work your way up. Sometimes things work out and sometimes they don’t. Most re-loaders will not just "pick one" from the book or reproduce someone else’s load and expect the best results. Suggested equipment As a first press I suggest a bench mounted single station press to learn the techniques and "problem solving" of re-loading. Later, if you want more production consider a progressive press. You'll also need: A re-loading manual (or several manuals). F/L Sizer Two Die set (or 3 die set). Shell holder. A way to clean dirty cases (liquid cleaner or tumbler/vibratory machine w/ media or a wipe down w/rag). A way to de-prime military cases (regular die or universal de-capper or hammer and anvil method). A way to de-crimp military cases (swage or ream). A way to prime cases (on press or off press). A way to lube cases (what lube and applied w/fingers or pad with lube or spray lube). A way to test your re-sized cases (case gauge or actual rifle chamber). Caliper (though, not absolutely needed if you use a case gauge). A way to trim cases (hand powered or motorized). A case de-bur/chamfer tool, if your trimmer didn't do it all in one pass. A way to measure and dispense powder (dippers or disk measure or hopper/dispenser). A way to weigh the powder (electronic or balance beam scale) Powder. Primers. Bullets. Cartridge cases. These basic tools and components will do for simple ammunition production. Lee IF you're looking to go cheap (not a bad "cheap") consider Lee. Shop for your best prices. LEE products are frequently discounted Lee makes good dies and include a shell holder and powder dipper w/load data chart. When re-loading bottle neck cases (.223/5.56mm) to be used in a semi auto buy the full length re-sizer, two die set. Generally, you don't need a small base die set. If you want the Lee Factory Crimp Die (FCD) they also have a three die set that includes it for a little extra. When re-loading for straight walled pistol cases (e.g. 9mm, 45 ACP, .38 Special), Buy the carbide, three die set. The carbide re-sizer will eliminate the need to lube cases. And if you want the Lee FCD, Lee has a four die set for most of the popular calibers. There are many LEE single station presses to choose from. www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1217810820.1709=/html/catalog/classic.html www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1217810820.1709=/html/catalog/rlpress1.html If you're in the market for a "kit." I like this one. www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1217810820.1709=/html/catalog/rlpress2.html#breech A good compromise between a single station and a progressive is a Turret Press........ www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1217810820.1709=/html/catalog/turretpress.html Upgrading to a Progressive A good press will last a lifetime and then some. Be it a LEE or RCBS or whatever other brand.I bought a lot of my starter equipment, USED. And, I still have a lot of it. My first press was a used RCBS Jr. and I later traded it for a used RCBS Rock Chucker. My friend wanted a smaller press and it was a straight across trade. So, how could I refuse? After a long time of using a single station press I up-graded. I bought a Dillon. Later I bought three LEE M1000 presses (just for pistol calibers). Even after I got the progressive presses there will always be a job for the single station press on my bench since.you don't really gain that much IF you're re-loading bottle necked cases. BECAUSE, of the case prep steps (case lube, military primer crimps and trimming cases). However, a progressive press will really shine when you're doing straight walled cases with carbide dies. The Reloading Process Assuming you're using a single stage press. 1) Inspect and clean the cases. A liquid bath in hot water and dish soap will get them clean though, not shiny. Alternatively you can just wipe the cases off with a solvent dampened rag. To clean with some shine, Birchwood Casey Case Cleaning Solution (#33845 CCI) is a fast and cheap way. Mix with water (follow the directions on the package) soak the brass, drain and dry. Save the solution as it can be re-used. 2) Set up your press with the shell holder and de-capper/FL re-sizer die. 3) Lube the cases. LEE lube (#90006) can be applied with fingers. Or, buy a spray on lube from one of the "other brands." 4) Then, run some test cases through the die, it'll de-cap/re-size the brass in one pass. 5) The secret to re-loading a bottle neck cartridge is a case gauge. There are many different brands and ways to gauge your re-loads. I use a Forster Products case gauge (the Wilson or Dillon case gauges are also popular choices). Examples of various gauges…….. www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=REMTHT&type=store Using a case gauge, check the brass to ensure that the proper re-size, has been achieved. Insert a case into the case gauge. The headstamped end of the case, needs to be at or between the high and low cuts on the gauge, to pass. This checks the headspace. While the other end, is used to check if the case will need to be trimmed (a job for later on). If it’s not the “correct size,” your die setting will need adjustment. Lower the ram and simply screw the die in or out a little. Don’t forget about the lock nut. Then, re-size another couple of test cases and check your work again. Repeat the test and adjustments, as needed. You can read this link for more information: www.chuckhawks.com/adjust_reloading_dies.htm 6) When you're satisfied that your test cases are properly re-sized, do the entire lot. 7) Trimming brass. Remember the case gauge? Well, if your brass failed the gauge test, you will need to trim the brass. Or check the brass length with a caliper. The cheapest way to trim brass, is with the Lee case trimmer. You'll need the cutter & lock stub and shell holder & case length gauge tools. The assembled trimmer runs on hand power or with a drill. Once the trimming is done, use a chamfer/reamer tool (LEE #90109) to "knock off the edge" on the newly cut case necks. 8) Clean the brass to take off the lube.......repeat, Step #1. 9) Then, re-prime the cases with a new primer. The Lee auto prime hand tool makes fast work of this job. BTW, you'll need a special shell holder (not your reg. press shell holder) made especially for the Lee auto prime or .use your press mounted primer tool. 10) After the cases have been re-primed, place the cases in a loading block. 11) Using a simple powder measure, calibrate it to throw the weight of powder charge that you want. 12) Check the thrown weight with your scale. 13) When you're satisfied that the weight is correct, charge each of the cases with powder. 14) Next, remove the de-capper/re-sizer die from the press and replace it with the bullet seating die. Then, place the bullet on top of the opening of the case neck. Run the case w/bullet into the bullet seating die. 15) Inspect your rounds. You're done. Crimped primer pockets in military cases: If you’re dealing with military cases add these steps........... 1) With once fired military brass, this next step only has to be done once. You could de-cap primers with the standard de-cap/re-sizer die. Though due to the primer crimp, there is a high incidence of parts breakage. IMHO, de-cap the once fired military brass using either, a “universal” de-capper die or with a skinny nail/punch and anvil (with a hole in it, large enough for the old primer to fall out of, but still support the case rim). Or, buy the LEE military primer de-capper set (#90102-.30 cal., #90103-.22 cal.). Simply, run the nail/punch down through the case neck. The nail will enter the flash hole and rest against the old primer. Put the case on the anvil (old primer centered over the anvil’s hole). Then, with a hammer knock out the old primer, letting the old primer fall through the hole in the anvil. Yes, the military crimp is sometimes that stubborn. 2) Again, since we’re using once fired military brass, this next step has to be done only once. The primer crimp will need to be removed. The crimp gets either swaged or reamed/cut. My friend has a Dillon swage and I use a Lyman hand reamer/cutting tool. Both can do the job..One is cheaper. Lyman hand reamer (#7777785 Large, #7777784 Small). I do the crimp removal while watching TV. It's as simple as: pick up a case, insert the tool into the primer pocket and twist, remove case. Commercial cases usually don't have a primer crimp to bother with so these steps can be omitted. Likewise, for the next time you load these “already treated” military cases. |
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