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Posted: 6/21/2008 5:54:52 AM EDT
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Handloading .223 Rem. How slow can I load them? I have some Winchester bulk 55gr FMJ bullets, Varget, VihtaVuori n135 and TiteGroup powders. Hodgdon says I can load 3.1 gr of TiteGroup under a 55gr bullet but I wonder if that will even push the bullet all the way out of my 20" AR barrel? I don't really want to use pistol powder anyway. I want to use a rifle powder and load way down and work my way up. I realize that too slow of a round may not cycle the action but thats not important right now Any suggestions on loading down? For plinking.... I like Varget and VV n135 for use with my accurate rounds but I want to get a powder that meters good thru my stock Dillon powder bar for 55gr FMJ plinking ammo. Any suggestions? Soon an my conversions get here I'm going to load .38 Special, .357 Mag and .45 Auto. Any suggestions for powder that meters well and is good for all three of the above? What primer are you guys using for .38 Special and .357 Magnum? Thanks alot guys. |
Get a good reloading manual, there are lots of sutiable powders out there. The primer type will be listed with each load. |
I'm referring to rifle powders loaded in a rifle caliber. Never go lower than the minimum load. |
| The Hodgdon data for Titegroup in 223 works, I tried it in my Savage boltgun with a 24" bbl. It's very quiet and no, it won't cycle the action in an AR. You're only saving a few pennies on powder doing this, I found it wasn't really worth it. Get a 22LR upper or make real rifle ammo. |
He means the usual gunpowders for standard loads. There's a danger in simply picking a powder the loading way down below documented minimum charger weights, particularly by starting there - Small charges of powders suitable for a particular case can cause secondary detonations during ignition that produce very high pressures. The problem usually shows up in large capacity cases loaded way down, and I have never heard of the problem in .223 Rem, but if you're dead set on using a rifle powder, I would stick my toe in carefully starting with minimum charges and work my way down very carefully. A better bet is to use well known published loads that use Blue Dot or other gunpowders usually reserved for handgun cartridges. There are basically two groups of low speed loads available; one for speeds in the 1500 to 2000 fps range, and another for subsonic speeds. These loads are so small that investment in a one pound can of gunpowder isn't going to break the bank, the cost of bullets and primers will far over shadow the gun powder cost before it's used up. |
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If I were to load down, I think the minimum I'd do is to follow the tested youth loads posted by Hodgdon. I'm not courageous to try something on my own though. To summarize, they say that for bullets that can use H4895, you can take the max load and multiple that by 60% to create a 1500-2100 f/s load. You can find current Hodgdon (and other powder) loads at data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp. If you want to use another type of powder, I'd contact them and explain what you're trying to do and see what they recommend. Most powder manufacturers are very helpful, as not only do they want to keep your business, but they also dont want you to blow yourself up. |
There is no real detonation that occurs with low charges of slow powders---it is nearly impossible to make smokeless powder detonate (except in very large chunks). What does happen is that the powder does not burn well initially. This creates very low pressure in which the bullet moves forward but then stops. After stopping, the powder has more surface area burning and then the pressure increases dramatically but before the bullet can start moving again. This effect can and has blown-up guns before; it is essentially a bore obstruction. I had this effect occur once in a 6.5x55 with a minimum listed load. The rifle did not blow -up but the primer was flattened excessively and blown. Velocity was much higher than expected, and the firing pin was actually held back by the blown primer. The fired case also had pressure dents on the outside of the case at the shoulder and was quite smoked: an indication of low pressure since the case did not expand to fill the chamber before the bullet left the case. Handloader Magazine had a write-up about this several years ago in which testing was done with a 6.5x55 barrel that did blow-up an action with a "low velocity" load; the barrel was still O.K. The barrel was mounted to a universal receiver and pressure data collected. The data showed clearly that the bullet stopped at the origin, or slightly into the rifling and then stopped allowing the pressure to spike. Using rifle powders to achieve reduced velocities is not a good idea. The load "Hodgdon says I can load 3.1 gr of TiteGroup under a 55gr" should not give a problem with sending the bullet out of the barrel. It might even be super-sonic. Consider this: a .38 Spl would use such a load to propel a 150 grain bullet that would leave a rifle length barrel with no problem. Case capacities of the .38 Spl and .223 are somewhat similar but the .223 has a much smaller bore. This means that the volume of gas will be pushing on the bullet that much longer. |
Detonation or secondary ignition are probably neither the precise term, but I gotta use something. I believe the same secondary ignition problem can occur in a large case before the bullet reaches the lands simply due to wave reflection inside the case. Unfortuntately, there are probably a couple dozen phenomena we would like to observe as they happen inside a case and in the barrel. Some of our ideas about most of them is probably way wrong. |
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The secondary pressure spike is only found in double-based propellents. There, the nitroglycerine ignites first, providing the initial pressure spike and since the NG is vaporizing, it keeps the propellent grain cool, inhibiting full ignition. Only after the first burning stops, the remaining nitrocellulose is warming, further sensitizing it and once it ignites, it burns much faster than normal. For reduced loads, use single based propellents if you are sticking with the normal burn rate. If you go with a much faster burn rate, double based can be used as can any flake type or porous based propellent. |
+1 for fast burning powder in this application. There were some guys loading quiet rounds for the 30/30 using Bullseye, and, IIRC, they were using about 2-3 grains. That was a different forum and about 5 years ago. Anyway, quick powder is the key. Stay completely away from rifle powder or slow-burning powder, which means stay far away from Blue Dot, too. I'm gonna mention, since no one else has, even though it goes without saying... unless you actually saw the bullet come out and hit something, like punch a hole in paper, ESPECIALLY when you are developing the round, be dang sure to manually extract the case and peek through the barrel. Or run a quick rod through it. Or slide through a patch on weed eater line. Or run a bore snake. Something that you are comfortable with and that won't freak out the folks running the range where you are shooting. Cause you dang sho don't want to have a bullet stuck in the barrel and try to send another one up its butt. That's bad juju. BTW, one reason to have a low-velocity, subsonic load is to shoot rats in your backyard or something similar. It's a way to have noise suppression (legally) without actually using a noise suppressor (illegal). Before you have the bright idea that it's a tactical load, however, know that the stopping power is about limited to rats within 30 feet. The whole idea is better with a .30 bullet than a .224 I'd think, but what the hell. I'm also sure that if I were going to do this I'd get one of JP's adjustable gas blocks and turn off the gas coming back--since it's not gonna do much anyway. That sudden pressure drop might stop a bullet? Slow it wayyy down? Don't know, but I wouldn't chance it. Hey! Once you attempt this and have some fun at it, let the rest of us know what resulted. I really wanted to do it in 30/30 and just never got around to it. Still may some day for fun. |
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Blue Dot is a great powder for sub loads. I use it for my light loads. 6 grains behind a 30 grain jacketed bullet is good for reliably making it out of the barrel, 1100 FPS. Nothing lower as the bullet stops right after the gas tube. I have gone up to 12 grains with this bullet, no function but it gets about 2500 FPS. Full loads with H322 get over 4000. The bullets that I had stick in the bore were easily knocked out with a cleaning rod. They didn't have much resistance, about all I felt was a "click" of the rod hitting the bullet. But that is a great, smooth bore. |
Uh, I'm going to have to disagree on the double-based only explanation. The effect occurred in my rifle and the one described in Handloader with H4831, which is a single based powder. There may be some of the same effects with the deterrent coatings, however. But the bullet stopping and effectively creating a bore obstruction is a likely cause---but not necessarily the only one. |
We have a whole forum here devoted to legally owning silencers.  ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=6&f=20 |
Yeah, but loading bullets any way one damn well pleases is, last I checked, still totally legal as well. |
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I've used IMR Trailboss for .223 and .308 subsonics in the past with excellent results. I'm not going to list any specifics because they are not published loads, but I would recommend calling Hodgdon @913-362-9455 and ask them about using Trailboss for .223. They should be able to help you out. |
The measured secondary pressure spike is what I am talking about. There have been failures with slower burning, reduced loads but these have not shown up in pressure traces. Some W296 loads have left behind masses of unburned propellent in pistol loads. This was the first indication of the segregated burn theory. |
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