Armory Sponsor
Posted: 7/9/2014 1:57:31 PM EDT
|
Scar 17
Besides the grip attachment and expensive mags does the 17 lower need replaced? Are the polymer lowers not very good? I know they are not nearly as strong as an aluminum lower but FN put them on from the factory. I guess the polymer could flex and not break like aluminum. Maybe pmag(factory lower) vs steel or aluminum(Handl lower) and I prefer polymer mags over anything else Thanks, Jeff Also what about the guys who depend on these rifles for their life? Do they stick with the factory lower |
|
Quoted: Scar 17 Besides the grip attachment and expensive mags does the 17 lower need replaced? Are the polymer lowers not very good? I know they are not nearly as strong as an aluminum lower but FN put them on from the factory. I guess the polymer could flex and not break like aluminum. Maybe pmag(factory lower) vs steel or aluminum(Handl lower) and I prefer polymer mags over anything else Thanks, Jeff Also what about the guys who depend on these rifles for their life? Do they stick with the factory lower |
|
long as your not using it as a hammer the poly lower works well. i ran a poly lower for a year. im clumsy and it was dropped several times. its landed on the optic the grip and its side muzzle down and once it bounced out of a 4 wheeler out of the gun rack no damage other than a bunch of dirt getting in everything. ive got an aftermarket pmag lower now just cuz i wanted to run pmags. pmags are easy to get cheap and easy to clean and dont weigh as much.
through all the abuse its never broken lost zero or failed to fire or eject. if you run just the poly lower you wont have any issues. rumors of cracking are just that, bs rumors |
| I have never had a problem with mine, nor have I ever seen anyone else have a problem with one. I am sure that several of the naysayers will be in here shortly to tell you that if you don't buy a Handl Defense lower for your 17 it will eat your optic. I have run a Leupold VXR 3x9 scope in a Larue mount as well as an Aimpoint Pro on my 17 with absolutely no issues. |
|
While the implants from FnFourms are not completely wrong, they are not completely right.
I would say that unless you plan on racing the gun really really hard, or treating it really really rough, you have pretty much nothing to worry about. You can leave it at that or if you want read on. Now since some propose there is absolutely nothing wrong with the lower at all, then why: does one company which makes an aftermarket trigger module say it needs to be a stressed member? then another company is making a SR-25 pattern lower in 7075 aluminum (after they figured out why first company did not use 6061 then they switched to 7075 as well) not only does the second company make this SR-25 pattern lower, but they make an OEM pattern magazine lower. WHY? if there is nothing wrong with the OEM trigger module then WHY? what is the purpose? looks? vanity? $400+ part that has no benefit? really?? either they are selling a flashy trinket or... or he knows what I know, what an armorer in Coronado told me, what an armorer in Ranger BN told me, what more than one group armorer told me, not to mention team guys told me (even though none of these service members have credibility in FNFourmastan) that at a certain point the lower is a weak part of the system, a point 99.9% will never see. |
|
Quoted:
While the implants from FnFourms are not completely wrong, they are not completely right. I would say that unless you plan on racing the gun really really hard, or treating it really really rough, you have pretty much nothing to worry about. You can leave it at that or if you want read on. Now since some propose there is absolutely nothing wrong with the lower at all, then why: does one company which makes an aftermarket trigger module say it needs to be a stressed member? then another company is making a SR-25 pattern lower in 7075 aluminum (after they figured out why first company did not use 6061 then they switched to 7075 as well) not only does the second company make this SR-25 pattern lower, but they make an OEM pattern magazine lower. WHY? if there is nothing wrong with the OEM trigger module then WHY? what is the purpose? looks? vanity? $400+ part that has no benefit? really?? either they are selling a flashy trinket or... or he knows what I know, what an armorer in Coronado told me, what an armorer in Ranger BN told me, what more than one group armorer told me, not to mention team guys told me (even though none of these service members have credibility in FNFourmastan) that at a certain point the lower is a weak part of the system, a point 99.9% will never see. It's called a "market." Look how many companies are making money hand over fist with the AR: you can literally "upgrade" every component, down to the smallest detail. The SCAR is almost perfect out of the box: ambi safety, reversible charging handle, folding sights, ambi mag release. These same companies are looking to get the same out of the SCAR: if they can find enough people to believe that they "need" their "upgrades," then they can peddle their shit in much the same way. ETA: You're doing the same thing with all your posts here. The only difference is that you aren't the peddler, you're the stooge. 
|
|
Sir,
Stooge is not the correct definition, a much more appropriate term would be advocate. There is and will be a visceral response to provocation by those from another site, as what happened there is without honor. I had stayed out until provoked, I remain cordial until provoked. Disparage those I know to be honest, call what I know to be true a lie, and that will always be my response. When others hide behind others in order to attack their competition, to insure they don't get a fair shake, so they can bide time until their product is ready, while undermining others reputation and market share, it is despicable and they should be outed at every turn. I have, and I will not stop. From the internet forum, to the courtroom where I think this will end up, I will continue to repeat what I saw. So that the next guy, the next company will not suffer the same fate. If not for the actions of FNFourms sponsors, members and staff I surmise that 50% of the SCAR 17's would have a Handl SCAR 25 trigger module instead of 10-15%, they never got a chance to fix actual CS complaints (which there were some) look at the attacks on IWC charging handles, the attacks on Cav Arms lowers. Any product that competes with one of the "ayatollahs" gets shredded. Now that philosophy is seeping into here. Now if you worked on the Handl, IWC, Cav, or some other project that has gotten undermined there, wouldn't you be an advocate for it? would you not have the honor and integrity to warn others? |
|
Quoted: Sir, Stooge is not the correct definition, a much more appropriate term would be advocate. There is and will be a visceral response to provocation by those from another site, as what happened there is without honor. I had stayed out until provoked, I remain cordial until provoked. Disparage those I know to be honest, call what I know to be true a lie, and that will always be my response. When others hide behind others in order to attack their competition, to insure they don't get a fair shake, so they can bide time until their product is ready, while undermining others reputation and market share, it is despicable and they should be outed at every turn. I have, and I will not stop. From the internet forum, to the courtroom where I think this will end up, I will continue to repeat what I saw. So that the next guy, the next company will not suffer the same fate. If not for the actions of FNFourms sponsors, members and staff I surmise that 50% of the SCAR 17's would have a Handl SCAR 25 trigger module instead of 10-15%, they never got a chance to fix actual CS complaints (which there were some) look at the attacks on IWC charging handles, the attacks on Cav Arms lowers. Any product that competes with one of the "ayatollahs" gets shredded. Now that philosophy is seeping into here. Now if you worked on the Handl, IWC, Cav, or some other project that has gotten undermined there, wouldn't you be an advocate for it? would you not have the honor and integrity to warn others? |
|
Quoted:
Sir, Stooge is not the correct definition, a much more appropriate term would be advocate. There is and will be a visceral response to provocation by those from another site, as what happened there is without honor. I had stayed out until provoked, I remain cordial until provoked. Disparage those I know to be honest, call what I know to be true a lie, and that will always be my response. When others hide behind others in order to attack their competition, to insure they don't get a fair shake, so they can bide time until their product is ready, while undermining others reputation and market share, it is despicable and they should be outed at every turn. I have, and I will not stop. From the internet forum, to the courtroom where I think this will end up, I will continue to repeat what I saw. So that the next guy, the next company will not suffer the same fate. If not for the actions of FNFourms sponsors, members and staff I surmise that 50% of the SCAR 17's would have a Handl SCAR 25 trigger module instead of 10-15%, they never got a chance to fix actual CS complaints (which there were some) look at the attacks on IWC charging handles, the attacks on Cav Arms lowers. Any product that competes with one of the "ayatollahs" gets shredded. Now that philosophy is seeping into here. Now if you worked on the Handl, IWC, Cav, or some other project that has gotten undermined there, wouldn't you be an advocate for it? would you not have the honor and integrity to warn others? What in the blue fuck are you talking about? Between you and Madcaps cryptic "I know this high speed operator" bullshit, and your obvious bias towards Handl Defense, I'm surprised anyone in this forum can have an intelligent conversation regarding a weapons system that I highly doubt either of you even fucking own. Go peddle your bullshit somewhere else. And by the way, I don't have anything to do with FNForums so direct your snide remarks elsewhere. |
|
Quoted:
do you have to crap in every scar thread? Quoted:
Quoted:
Sir, If I were you, expect me to call it like I see it, If you think for one second I am going to sit here and allow the FNFourmastan BS seep into here and not say anything, well you would be wrong. |
| To the OP, it's all about having options and what you feel comfortable using. If end-users in the mil realm are what you base your decisions on, right or wrong, consider this. After 5+ years in combat, NSW Crane has yet to be approached by end-users regarding issues with the SCAR OEM polymer trigger module itself. If a Mod 1 is developed and fielded, you can pretty much guarantee that it will retain the current OEM polymer trigger module. |
|
OP,
The polymer trigger module is just fine. IF (and this is a BIG "if") there was a pervasive and documented problem with the OEM module, then who would have the greatest interest in resolving the problem...FN themselves, or an aftermarket company? I will cite several examples to illustrate my point: -End user feedback indicated a real issue existed with the aluminum OEM barrel support bracket. Who provided the steel support bracket as a solution? FN. -Problems with the early M16 in Vietnam included bores, chambers, and lower receivers corroding, and outright rusting away in some cases. Who provided the solution via chromed bores and improved anodizing? Colt's. -Simply because an aftermarket company offers an "upgrade," does not immediately imply that there is a "problem" in the military's view. How many M16/M4 bolt carrier "upgrades" are out there? NiB, TiN, Nitride, Chromed, take your pick. But has the .mil or it's end users announced that the M16 carrier sucks? No. There is money to be made in the commercial market with these products, so they are made. The same holds true with the SCAR trigger module. FN stands to lose the most if the .mil dropped the SCAR outright because of a faulty trigger module. If there was a NEED to improve or upgrade it, FN would do it, just like they did with the barrel support bracket, and just like Colt's did with the M16s corrosion protection. |
Sorry I tried to give you a simple answer to your question, and look who crapped in your thread.|
tah'yati habibi cetane and fellow FNFourmastan pilgrims and converts
So lets see if I got this right Sarge comes and says some naysayer will be along to say if your don't buy a Handl your 17 will break optics (completely inaccurate replication of my statement). Since that was shot right at me, and this is not FNFourmastan and can respond openly without retribution, I am going to. get very used to it. Yes a stressed member trigger module can help with how the whole system deals with recoil impulse. Cetane since USSOCOM has validated that certain optics are "CAR-H" hardened do you propose there is no issue with recoil impulse with the SCAR? That there is not room for improvement? Since you can't get a moderator to come delete posts like you can in FNFourmastan. This question will be here for you to answer. see you guys love to take things completely out of context and/or twist it, like I said FNFourmastan BS seeping in like a cracked sewer line. I said most civilian users will most likely not have any NEED for anything but the OEM, but since I know the Handl has found a way to improve the entire system (of which their stressed member trigger module is only a part of it) you guys feel like it is a free fire zone because the product does not belong to the "ayatollah" . The only thing being crapped on is the slander and attacks on character that you guys are so proficient at. |
|
Quoted:
tah'yati habibi cetane and fellow FNFourmastan pilgrims and converts So lets see if I got this right Sarge comes and says some naysayer will be along to say if your don't buy a Handl your 17 will break optics (completely inaccurate replication of my statement). Since that was shot right at me, and this is not FNFourmastan and can respond openly without retribution, I am going to. get very used to it. Yes a stressed member trigger module can help with how the whole system deals with recoil impulse. Cetane since USSOCOM has validated that certain optics are "CAR-H" hardened do you propose there is no issue with recoil impulse with the SCAR? That there is not room for improvement? Since you can't get a moderator to come delete posts like you can in FNFourmastan. This question will be here for you to answer. see you guys love to take things completely out of context and/or twist it, like I said FNFourmastan BS seeping in like a cracked sewer line. I said most civilian users will most likely not have any NEED for anything but the OEM, but since I know the Handl has found a way to improve the entire system (of which their stressed member trigger module is only a part of it) you guys feel like it is a free fire zone because the product does not belong to the "ayatollah" . The only thing being crapped on is the slander and attacks on character that you guys are so proficient at. The only thing that's being "crapped on" is threads in which you continually post your diatribe. I'll tell you like I told Madcap, post one ounce of proof that the polymer trigger module/lower is defective, under any circumstances. "Proof" is not some armorer you know or some "special forces/Ranger/SEAL" that buys guns in your store. I have no personal loyalty to any manufacturer. If I purchase something, especially for this kind of money, and it breaks or shows a propensity to break prematurely, I'll be the first guy stoking the fires. The fact of the matter is, this isn't one of those times. I own a 17s, and so do 3 of my personal friends. They shoot way more.rounds out of theirs than I do out of mine. One of them runs a Primary Arms Micro on his and has since day one. Over 2500 rounds later, the PA Micro is still going strong. How many quality RDS's have taken a shit over the years while mounted to an M4? A shit-ton. I don't see anyone screaming to figure out what the M4 had to do with it because you know what? Mechanical devices are known to take a dump. Doesn't matter what gun they get mounted to, they slipped through quality control and failed when put into use or, died from natural causes because it was the end of their life cycle. The 17s is a very lightweight .308. It does have some recoil but is still mild compared to most comparable .308 weapons. You throw an optic on it that is either very close to crapping out, or built to shitty quality control standards, it's probably gonna crap out. But then again, an M4 would have ate the optic as well. Since this is a technical forum, produce some real evidence to support your claims. Not hearsay. |
|
Quoted:
The only thing that's being "crapped on" is threads in which you continually post your diatribe. I'll tell you like I told Madcap, post one ounce of proof that the polymer trigger module/lower is defective, under any circumstances. "Proof" is not some armorer you know or some "special forces/Ranger/SEAL" that buys guns in your store. I do not own a store nor do I own a firearms company, also you sir are in no place to determine what "proof" is. This is an internet forum, EVERYTHING is opinion. Even some of the great technical posts by guys like "whootie who" or others are still subjective opinion. Add to this that you are in no place of authority of any kind to tell anyone anything. I could get guys from every group, every team, and I doubt your complaint would be satisfied, I suspect your motive though, more on that later. I have no personal loyalty to any manufacturer. If I purchase something, especially for this kind of money, and it breaks or shows a propensity to break prematurely, I'll be the first guy stoking the fires. The fact of the matter is, this isn't one of those times. I own a 17s, and so do 3 of my personal friends. They shoot way more.rounds out of theirs than I do out of mine. One of them runs a Primary Arms Micro on his and has since day one. Over 2500 rounds later, the PA Micro is still going strong. that is good and I hope your rifle and theirs last until your children are 65. But see I have seen the 17S tested to over 5,000 rounds on one gun in one day, HD f'n wrecked it. It was like a dozen cans of 308 on stripper clips. that gun fired all damn day. HD have hammered the dog piss out of them. Yes shit broke. The opinion I offer is based off of that and my time under a mK.17 and a 17S How many quality RDS's have taken a shit over the years while mounted to an M4? A shit-ton. I don't see anyone screaming to figure out what the M4 had to do with it because you know what? Mechanical devices are known to take a dump. Doesn't matter what gun they get mounted to, they slipped through quality control and failed when put into use or, died from natural causes because it was the end of their life cycle. I agree that happens The 17s is a very lightweight .308. It does have some recoil but is still mild compared to most comparable .308 weapons. You throw an optic on it that is either very close to crapping out, or built to shitty quality control standards, it's probably gonna crap out. But then again, an M4 would have ate the optic as well. I agree, but considering that USSOCOM/NSWC Crane has required that certain optics/items be CAR-H hardened means they found that when item#1 is on item#2 = failure possible. Since this is a technical forum, produce some real evidence to support your claims. Not hearsay. so you can shuttle the R&D data/ pics/ vidoes directly to the "ayatollah"...fits the pattern ...Handl Defense works the bugs out, he copies, he profits...which I suspect is your motive Quoted:
Quoted:
The only thing that's being "crapped on" is threads in which you continually post your diatribe. I'll tell you like I told Madcap, post one ounce of proof that the polymer trigger module/lower is defective, under any circumstances. "Proof" is not some armorer you know or some "special forces/Ranger/SEAL" that buys guns in your store. I do not own a store nor do I own a firearms company, also you sir are in no place to determine what "proof" is. This is an internet forum, EVERYTHING is opinion. Even some of the great technical posts by guys like "whootie who" or others are still subjective opinion. Add to this that you are in no place of authority of any kind to tell anyone anything. I could get guys from every group, every team, and I doubt your complaint would be satisfied, I suspect your motive though, more on that later. I have no personal loyalty to any manufacturer. If I purchase something, especially for this kind of money, and it breaks or shows a propensity to break prematurely, I'll be the first guy stoking the fires. The fact of the matter is, this isn't one of those times. I own a 17s, and so do 3 of my personal friends. They shoot way more.rounds out of theirs than I do out of mine. One of them runs a Primary Arms Micro on his and has since day one. Over 2500 rounds later, the PA Micro is still going strong. that is good and I hope your rifle and theirs last until your children are 65. But see I have seen the 17S tested to over 5,000 rounds on one gun in one day, HD f'n wrecked it. It was like a dozen cans of 308 on stripper clips. that gun fired all damn day. HD have hammered the dog piss out of them. Yes shit broke. The opinion I offer is based off of that and my time under a mK.17 and a 17S How many quality RDS's have taken a shit over the years while mounted to an M4? A shit-ton. I don't see anyone screaming to figure out what the M4 had to do with it because you know what? Mechanical devices are known to take a dump. Doesn't matter what gun they get mounted to, they slipped through quality control and failed when put into use or, died from natural causes because it was the end of their life cycle. I agree that happens The 17s is a very lightweight .308. It does have some recoil but is still mild compared to most comparable .308 weapons. You throw an optic on it that is either very close to crapping out, or built to shitty quality control standards, it's probably gonna crap out. But then again, an M4 would have ate the optic as well. I agree, but considering that USSOCOM/NSWC Crane has required that certain optics/items be CAR-H hardened means they found that when item#1 is on item#2 = failure possible. Since this is a technical forum, produce some real evidence to support your claims. Not hearsay. so you can shuttle the R&D data/ pics/ vidoes directly to the "ayatollah"...fits the pattern ...Handl Defense works the bugs out, he copies, he profits...which I suspect is your motive See what I am talking about is probability and propensity, varying degrees, based on conditions and environments, since that is easily construed as hearsay....I'll get out the crayons Is the SCAR 17s/mk.17 a very durable gun? yes Do I like it? yes Can it be improved? yes Can it fail? yes Can it malfunction? yes Is malfunction or failure likely? No should these improbable failures/malfunctions prevent you for using or buying the SCAR? NOPE are there other guns you should at least consider before buying a SCAR 17? YES are there aftermarket solutions to those improbable failures/malfunctions? yes did the military version of this gun (Mk.17/Mk.20) have issues? Yes Which of the aftermarket companies has done the most extensive testing of the SCAR platform? Handl Defense Is anyone even close to them? NOPE Has the Handl Defense trigger module and other parts been tested in EXCESS of the CAR-H spec sheet? yes Are all of those solutions currently available to the civilian market? NO Does Handl Defense give me any sort of compensation to say these things? NOPE will you be satisfied with a FN SCAR 17s if you do nothing to it? Yes Will I shut the fuck up? NOPE |
|
Quoted:
See what I am talking about is probability and propensity, varying degrees, based on conditions and environments, since that is easily construed as hearsay....I'll get out the crayons Is the SCAR 17s/mk.17 a very durable gun? yes Do I like it? yes Can it be improved? yes Can it fail? yes Can it malfunction? yes Is malfunction or failure likely? No should these improbable failures/malfunctions prevent you for using or buying the SCAR? NOPE are there other guns you should at least consider before buying a SCAR 17? YES are there aftermarket solutions to those improbable failures/malfunctions? yes did the military version of this gun (Mk.17/Mk.20) have issues? Yes Which of the aftermarket companies has done the most extensive testing of the SCAR platform? Handl Defense Is anyone even close to them? NOPE Has the Handl Defense trigger module and other parts been tested in EXCESS of the CAR-H spec sheet? yes Are all of those solutions currently available to the civilian market? NO Does Handl Defense give me any sort of compensation to say these things? NOPE will you be satisfied with a FN SCAR 17s if you do nothing to it? Yes Will I shut the fuck up? NOPE Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The only thing that's being "crapped on" is threads in which you continually post your diatribe. I'll tell you like I told Madcap, post one ounce of proof that the polymer trigger module/lower is defective, under any circumstances. "Proof" is not some armorer you know or some "special forces/Ranger/SEAL" that buys guns in your store. I do not own a store nor do I own a firearms company, also you sir are in no place to determine what "proof" is. This is an internet forum, EVERYTHING is opinion. Even some of the great technical posts by guys like "whootie who" or others are still subjective opinion. Add to this that you are in no place of authority of any kind to tell anyone anything. I could get guys from every group, every team, and I doubt your complaint would be satisfied, I suspect your motive though, more on that later. I have no personal loyalty to any manufacturer. If I purchase something, especially for this kind of money, and it breaks or shows a propensity to break prematurely, I'll be the first guy stoking the fires. The fact of the matter is, this isn't one of those times. I own a 17s, and so do 3 of my personal friends. They shoot way more.rounds out of theirs than I do out of mine. One of them runs a Primary Arms Micro on his and has since day one. Over 2500 rounds later, the PA Micro is still going strong. that is good and I hope your rifle and theirs last until your children are 65. But see I have seen the 17S tested to over 5,000 rounds on one gun in one day, HD f'n wrecked it. It was like a dozen cans of 308 on stripper clips. that gun fired all damn day. HD have hammered the dog piss out of them. Yes shit broke. The opinion I offer is based off of that and my time under a mK.17 and a 17S How many quality RDS's have taken a shit over the years while mounted to an M4? A shit-ton. I don't see anyone screaming to figure out what the M4 had to do with it because you know what? Mechanical devices are known to take a dump. Doesn't matter what gun they get mounted to, they slipped through quality control and failed when put into use or, died from natural causes because it was the end of their life cycle. I agree that happens The 17s is a very lightweight .308. It does have some recoil but is still mild compared to most comparable .308 weapons. You throw an optic on it that is either very close to crapping out, or built to shitty quality control standards, it's probably gonna crap out. But then again, an M4 would have ate the optic as well. I agree, but considering that USSOCOM/NSWC Crane has required that certain optics/items be CAR-H hardened means they found that when item#1 is on item#2 = failure possible. Since this is a technical forum, produce some real evidence to support your claims. Not hearsay. so you can shuttle the R&D data/ pics/ vidoes directly to the "ayatollah"...fits the pattern ...Handl Defense works the bugs out, he copies, he profits...which I suspect is your motive See what I am talking about is probability and propensity, varying degrees, based on conditions and environments, since that is easily construed as hearsay....I'll get out the crayons Is the SCAR 17s/mk.17 a very durable gun? yes Do I like it? yes Can it be improved? yes Can it fail? yes Can it malfunction? yes Is malfunction or failure likely? No should these improbable failures/malfunctions prevent you for using or buying the SCAR? NOPE are there other guns you should at least consider before buying a SCAR 17? YES are there aftermarket solutions to those improbable failures/malfunctions? yes did the military version of this gun (Mk.17/Mk.20) have issues? Yes Which of the aftermarket companies has done the most extensive testing of the SCAR platform? Handl Defense Is anyone even close to them? NOPE Has the Handl Defense trigger module and other parts been tested in EXCESS of the CAR-H spec sheet? yes Are all of those solutions currently available to the civilian market? NO Does Handl Defense give me any sort of compensation to say these things? NOPE will you be satisfied with a FN SCAR 17s if you do nothing to it? Yes Will I shut the fuck up? NOPE Ok, let me get this straight. In Essence what you are saying is: the SCAR is awesome but when abused horribly in a one day period and forced to perform to levels no one in their right mind would expect a weapon to perform to without a breakage, the SCAR broke? Wow, I feel pretty good about the weapon in my safe now. Thanks to you, I'm not going to run out and spend the day feeding stripper clip after stripper clip of .308 through my rifle until it breaks. Thank god we all ran into you and Handl Defense's awesome test before we did something stupid with our SCARS. |
|
Quoted:
Since this is a technical forum, produce some real evidence to support your claims. Not hearsay. so you can shuttle the R&D data/ pics/ vidoes directly to the "ayatollah"...fits the pattern ...Handl Defense works the bugs out, he copies, he profits...which I suspect is your motive All any of us are looking for is pictures of broken parts as proof that the weapon has weak points or has seen parts breakage! How will that help S.E. do any R&D or whatever beyond what he has already done with his aftermarket module?! The cat was out of the bag when HD released their first module to the public; anyone could have measured, gauged, and collected data from that point forward. Pictures of broken parts are not "trade secrets" that will ehance a competitor's ability to copy HD, it would just be proof to back up your claims. This isn't a challenge to you as much as it is a request: If the SCAR has weak points I want to know because I own a few and it is in my interests, so please provide proof so that I know what I'm dealing with. |
|
Quoted:
All any of us are looking for is pictures of broken parts as proof that the weapon has weak points or has seen parts breakage! How will that help S.E. do any R&D or whatever beyond what he has already done with his aftermarket module?! The cat was out of the bag when HD released their first module to the public; anyone could have measured, gauged, and collected data from that point forward. Pictures of broken parts are not "trade secrets" that will ehance a competitor's ability to copy HD, it would just be proof to back up your claims. This isn't a challenge to you as much as it is a request: If the SCAR has weak points I want to know because I own a few and it is in my interests, so please provide proof so that I know what I'm dealing with. Quoted:
Quoted:
Since this is a technical forum, produce some real evidence to support your claims. Not hearsay. so you can shuttle the R&D data/ pics/ vidoes directly to the "ayatollah"...fits the pattern ...Handl Defense works the bugs out, he copies, he profits...which I suspect is your motive All any of us are looking for is pictures of broken parts as proof that the weapon has weak points or has seen parts breakage! How will that help S.E. do any R&D or whatever beyond what he has already done with his aftermarket module?! The cat was out of the bag when HD released their first module to the public; anyone could have measured, gauged, and collected data from that point forward. Pictures of broken parts are not "trade secrets" that will ehance a competitor's ability to copy HD, it would just be proof to back up your claims. This isn't a challenge to you as much as it is a request: If the SCAR has weak points I want to know because I own a few and it is in my interests, so please provide proof so that I know what I'm dealing with. That seems reasonable, while I am very very apprehensive about posting any pics up at all, I will see what I can do. Also, I disagree not being able to illicit information from any picture of a failed part. I will see if they will let me have a couple of theirs, I will think about mine. Here is a good example as to why I am apprehensive. The buttstock will "fail" (meaning being unable to maintain its function not always "breaking") at about 55 to 65 lbs of pressure on the tail of the button side. I know the first solution (HD new hinge with OEM button/stock) has a "failure" point at about 115-125 lbs. If you were to see the pictures on how the hinge "fails" you'd know how to fix it, Then once you see how the HD solution fails, you'd know how to fix it. (the goal is 247lbs on the buttstock without it breaking btw) So if HD posted up pictures of their hinge failing before they have the second rev solution, they could get "cut off" before providing their own solution. Or they could inspire others to make a solution that would directly compete with the HD one. This is why only about a dozen people have seen the HD mk.17/mk.20 improvement program in its entirety. I think only the project lead in Tampa, the Bluegrass guy, and I are the only non-employees to see it all. When it's all done and fully tested I am very sure that will change. So I will see what they will let me have, but as always anything directly related to the mk17/mk20 program is going to have to be discussed as to the second and third order effects before released. A number of these pictures come from .mil brothers, but most come from testing that was intended to push the gun well past CAR-H standards, trying to get it to fail on purpose. So if you ask me most of what you are going to see is so far beyond everyday use, I mean do you walk around in 120 degree heat in the day and it drops 40-50 degrees at night for weeks on end? then bang the fuck out of the gun daily? Its why I say 99% of users will never see a SCAR H with issues. Its about that 1-2% might push it hard enough where it could. Also to find solutions to some of the "issues" the system has. Then lastly to improve performance. |
|
Quoted:
Ok, let me get this straight. In Essence what you are saying is: the SCAR is awesome but when abused horribly in a one day period and forced to perform to levels no one in their right mind would expect a weapon to perform to without a breakage, the SCAR broke? You should expect the gun to fail or break with heavy sustained rates of fire/ I have always said few people would ever expect to see a system failure. I have said its not about if/ its about how far until it fails. HD is pushing the system further than its designed, but some of the "failures" can be replicated during hard daily use Wow, I feel pretty good about the weapon in my safe now. Thanks to you, I'm not going to run out and spend the day feeding stripper clip after stripper clip of .308 through my rifle until it breaks. Thank god we all ran into you and Handl Defense's awesome test before we did something stupid with our SCARS. I am glad to see I could be of help 
|
|
Copper this post is for you Sir,
I was sitting in the office of Alan Handl's attorney yesterday giving a statement on something unrelated to this thread. I brought up this thread, I explained that if people (like Copper) understood how the things broke, when/if they do, they would make better informed decisions, which the more he educates the SCAR user, the more likely they will use HD parts and accessories. His trigger module conversion tutorial being a prime example http://youtu.be/NOlhkZvHpYc I asked for pics and some of the testing videos, he said hell no on the videos, and when it comes to pictures, he brought up the exact situation with the trigger module and FNForumastan, how that damaged him, the gag order on his employees, etc etc etc. He said he plans on releasing videos and pics that support the design philosophy of his products when he is ready. (I think the .mil submission is key) I asked for pics that showed anything that would not give the competition any intel, we looked on his Ipad we agreed customer pics only, no testing, nothing from professionals. So http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n161/handlmilgroup/Gripfailcivlian17_zps938c0796.jpeg This pic most have seen before, this is from someone who fell on the gun while running forward, changing mags during a 3 gun match, most would agree on three things: -this has a rare possibility of happening -wouldn't have happened with a magazine in the gun -aluminum or magnesium wouldn't have done this http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n161/handlmilgroup/20130428-00183_zpsbfeedc3d.jpg[/url https://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n161/handlmilgroup/20130428-00184_zps24fd7bae.jpg this is from someone who has a FA trigger pack (in a 17S BTW) and a lot of rounds through the gun, it was used in hot dry climate at altitude. It is not one of HD's test beds BTW. You can see where it cracked, and you can see what most likely caused the stresses. According to Alan once he took it apart, he could just pop the polymer back into place, and he thinks the gun would have just chugged on along for a while. Most would agree: - it was being used in conditions I just cant see civilian owners putting their gun through but for a rare few. - How FA fire puts higher stress loads in a shorter period of time on this gun. (there is a reason X products uses specifically HD trigger modules for its drum systems) - aluminum or magnesium will not do this. these two sets of pics I think tell enough about how under the right conditions, with the right loads, with the constant abuse some people can put on it, as rare as it is, the trigger module can crack, does it mean the weapon will catastrophically fail, probably not. These very rare instances are why I mentioned the Ayatollah switched from 6061 to 7075, as it has greater compressive strength. Alan said he was able to put stresses on 6061 that he couldn't on 7075. Another example of HD's R&D supporting the Ayatollah, (I told Alan that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and he should get used to it). Knowing that the CAV lower has had a shit ton of 3 gun use, I wonder if they found some of the same stresses when doing polymer vs Aluminum testing (Sinstral?). will 99% of SCAR users ever see this, NO but to make anything better you have to take it past what it can currently do, regardless of how ludicrous that abuse may be, make no mistake HD is doing just that |
|
Since this thread is so screwed up already, I'll post my warning for all. Anymore BS from anyone in this thread, or in any more threads within this forum, will result in your removal. It may be from this sub-forum, it may be from the site, but you will be removed. Leave out the name calling, childish arguments, or any other type of post that doesn't adhere to the rules governing tech forums, and get back on topic. |
Armory Sponsor