I emailed the guy in the youtube since he posted his address for someone else to email him I thought it would be okay.  It's a pretty cool looking lower.  I will post back details he comes back with.

Yeah post up the details if you can. I've always wanted to know more about it, but given I own a RR its of little use to me so I never bothered contacting him about it.

My buddy paid up all $13k with extras, MM told him a 6wk LT, it took him 1yr to deliver it.

I've had no luck 160-180rds with TC saw box, I keep it at 150rds..

Is there any effective way to slow down the ROF?

What aftermarket main spring do you guys recommend?

My goal is to reduce the overall ROF w/o sacrificing the overall reliability.

Possibly with a heavier buffer system. Anyone running one with an A5H4?

I'm running V5H2 (STD) ROF is high 850+ gas wide open, I have a H4 it wouldn't cycle..

I think member, jbntex used Colt X & MGI.
I wonder if I could use Colt X 9mm with some sort of aftermarket heavy spring to reduce the overall ROF.

I currently use a MGI buffer and a Sprinco "Red" extra power spring.  I also have a  heavy sliding tungsten weight (made out of a piece of 1/2 tungsten carbide end mill shank) installed in the carrier as well to slow things down.

I have tried a kynshot hydraulic and experienced failure to strip rounds issues.   I also tried a A2 sized Colt Hydraulic and the Shrike destroyed it within a couple belts.  (Cracked the main pin that holds the piston to the buffer body)  I dont know if it was a material defect of if the Shrike recoil was too much for it, etc.

I have a second Colt Hydraulic but have not bother to try yet as I am currently satisfied with the MGI and Sprinco "Red" arrangement.

I have also experimented with the Colt X and MGI when paired with the Sprinco "Blue" spring which doesnt really have enough power to make the system run reliably.

I did kill the nested springs in the MGI buffer which is what initially prompted my foray into the hydraulic buffer world.    However I replaced the MGI nested springs with some aftermarket springs that appear heavier duty and so far so good.

My experience is that the Shrike prefers to run fast, especially with tighter links as you need that strong recoil spring to strip links and it helps to have some level of carrier "bounce" off the back of the receiver tube to aid in getting the round striped from the link cartridge rim tab.  Once you drop the ROF down too slow you start to experience malfunctions due to too much energy being taken out of the recoil stroke.

Jbntex, thanks for sharing your experimentals and current setup.
With above setup, have you noticed any signification drop in ROF or improved reliability?
Planning to order a MGI buffer and Sprinco Red power spring!

I'm going to use a full-auto carrier but do I still needed to add extra Tungsten weight into the carrier?

The MCR is suppose to run fast. Id recomend whatever spring makes you happy and an h3 buffer.
Ive tried every conceivable buffer and countless springs.

I run on the highest gas setting and the lightest reloads that will function...runs alittle slower than when running m855

My Shrike was plenty reliable with the stock setup (Ares recoil spring and an H3 or X).  It just ran really fast.

At some point after I switched to the MGI buffer I ended up with some sporadic bolt bounce symptoms (hammer down with light primer strike).   My Shrike runs on a semi carrier as my setup is with a custom magwell-less lower and a RLL. So overall my carrier has less mass than a full auto carrier, plus a lighting link paddle precludes the carrier from closing as easily as a regular factory full auto arrangement.  

I ended up making the sliding weight system as insurance against bolt bounce a couple years back as I had signed up for a helicopter aerial gunnery course (shooting steel targets from a MD500) and didnt want the possibility of dealing or trying to clear a malfunction during the course of fire and inside the helicopter.  

I eventually tracked the source of the bolt bounce issues to the busted MGI buffer.    When the nested springs inside the MGI buffer broke/disintegrated it gummed up the sliding weights inside the MGI, which was why the bolt-bounce issues were so sporadic.  Most of the time the weights would still slide back and forth but other times they could get hung up with broken spring bits.

The side affect of the extra weight was a slightly slower rate of fire as well, so once I got the MGI fixed I just kept the tungsten weight in the carrier as I already went to the trouble.

If you are running a stock full auto setup I wouldnt bother with a tungsten weight in the carrier unless you want to experiment as it definately a void warranty maneuver given the welding on the carrier thats involved.

This is a video of my shrike (not me shooting) for what the ROF is like with an MGI and Sprinco Red buffer.  This is a 12" adjustable barrel with a XXX warrior suppressor.

http://youtu.be/BlD0duQ62s4

Aarent the mgi buffers discontinued? They did stop makeing them for awhile there.

Ya nobody seems to want to say it on the HK forum with him a being a sponsor and the guy whos going to repair their gun eventually.everyone one i meet in person with one has the same story.

Im 28k upfront with a 4 month lead time.its been a year...which i was planning on since this isnt my first rodeo.
What rubs me the wrong way isnt missing the deadline, its the "its almost done 2 to 4 weeks" wait 2 months and hear the same thing.

I get that it may slow orders but if it was me id give you a lead time of 18 months then deliver in 12.
It wouldn't have stopped me from ordering, but at some point i feel like i would have been better off just buying a brand new or like new one on gunbroker for 25% more.

If you have no actual timeframe for delivery, you shouldn't be taking money up front...
I did choose to pay upfront, noone forced me. But with the choice of 50/50 or 100% up front. i didnt want to cry while writing two checks.


I get its worth the wait to be done right, just sucks itll take over a year to make it when im sure within a year ill break it.

All said and done im not trying to talk anyone out of order an mm21e, but if you have that kind of money and an m16 order the MCR to keep you busy while waiting for your HK.... and plan on a 16 month wait spool you wont be dissapointed

Im sure its the same,e story with the couple other builders out there.im kindof over the MCR thing so there where only so many option where to go from there

wow... helicopter gunnery course!
Thanks for the advice, I will try to run stock and see what happens.
Thanks again for all your help.

I feel your pain...
When I ordered mine a few years back (when he was pumping out MM23E like hot cakes) he also quoted me 6 weeks.
It ended up about 2 months from ordering to receiving it from my FFL.
28K is a lot of money... please keep us updated with the progress.

Borrowed this image from other ar15.com thread.
I wonder whether they still makes this, or I could make my own with 80% lower.

That is who I contacted.  I sent them a facebook message and email directly.  The business still shows active so I hope they get back on this.  I have plenty of stripped lowers that I could send and have this mod done to as well.  They also do a shell deflector for the MCR/Shrike.  Here is a picture of that:

Attached File

Pretty interesting!
Please keep us updated with the availability, price, etc

They are still on MGIs website and Brownells has them in stock.  So they appear to still be available if you want one.

I see them at my local GT Distributors as well from time to time.

I made mine from a Tactical Machining single shot lower.  Downside is TM doesnt appear to offer single shot lowers anymore.

There was another guy on here (jerad) who made his from an 80% lower that didnt have the magwell broached.

should be pretty straight forward to cut down a magwell shorter like the pic above, but the box still wont sit as high as a dedicated belt box lower.

One consideration using an existing lower is the serial markings.  The one in the picture used a seekins as a host because the serial markings are back over the trigger area.  Most lowers have all that stuff on the magwell which would need to be removed.  I am not skilled enough to tackle an 80% project but it looks like those Seekins lowers are still available and the new PWS mod 2 lowers are also marked over the trigger guard I think.  They are also a little skeletonized like the MCR lowers.  If I don't hear back from Barry Arms I might contact a gunsmith.  With the right tools this should not be too difficult to reduce the magwell and shorten the adapter.

The other option which I read in an older thread is to take an MGI modular lower and an extra front end and have it modified/shortened.  The benefit is you could easily swap the front end for a standard to shoot regular AR mags or AK or whatever.  I have read mixed reviews though about the quality of the MGI lowers over the years.  I had contacted them a long time ago about buying just a lower with a couple of magwells and they were always "not available".  I had no interest in buying a whole rifle to get one so I never did.  Amphibian did this setup and posted this picture a while back

Attached File

Great point... especially w/ 200rds SAW box.

MGI lower seems fairly pricey.
I'm going to wait for your finding about Barry Arms... perhaps, we should run a group buy w/ other members.

The receivers cheap the magwells aren't.
I hate my mgi lower, i guess its possible that i received two defective magwell.But it was their attitude i didnt like.
Years later it works fine.. it wasnt a mag issue . There wasnt a ar15 mag on the market that would have been able to be inserted.The 9mm magwell could have a few mags i tried insterted partway, but not even close to all the way.
The over all machine was pathetic...or atleast these should have never left the shop.

Maybe youll be luckyier than me.
Honestly to change the FCG from one lower to another all you need is a flathead screwdriver to loosen the grip, a single .223 cartrage to push the pins, and 5 minutes of time at most.
I will Admit with the mgi and a QD trigger guard it probably takes under 1 min to change calibers.it is a novel idea.. but without a 7.62×51 magwell being produced like it was suppose to its not that versitle.

I looked for a Seekins lower today in case Barry Arms does not pan out and have a gunsmith do the work.  No one has them in stock I can find, although my googlefu is not great.  Price is right though.  Joebobs has them listed for $89 if they were in stock.  They are not listed on Seekins site anymore either.  I sent an email to Seekins if they produce them anymore.  What is important is to find a stripped lower where the manufacturer and serial are not on the magwell but further back.  I did find this company that does custom AR lowers but they are pricey for a stripped lower however,  I could get no markings on magwell (since those would go anyway), custom serial number, and picto or safe, semi, auto markings.

http://www.yorkarms.com/receiver.html

I have some time tomorrow and will try and call Barry Arms.

MM23E

Lol, i like a guy witha a solid answer.
Clearly the mm21e is better than the mm23e
And if you want the beltfed in .223 the mm23ek would be the way to go.

Regardless unless you only own  an hk sear the corrext answer is to order the MCR now and start the process on whatever variant of the MM tickles your fancy.

why do you say that?

Personal preference, you cant get a mcr in .308 so ideally you would go mm21 and mcr


the ek in .223 is the most comparable to the mcr.
The ek isnt a throw away when done toy like the mcr.

For most users it would just be a more pleasent shooting experience with the mm23EK, when the objective is cars and TVs at 50'
But i wanted .308 and everything g i own is already so short, i wanted something different... not that 17" barrel is long by most peoples standards


Coolhand, i tried responding to you pm 3x... the verification code, or timeing out has cause me to loose my message...I give up for now

Still no response back from Barry Arms on the shortened magwell lowers.  I am pretty sure that Seekins forged receiver is no longer made also.  Maybe I can find one new/old stock somewhere.  If anyone knows of a forged lower made where the company and serial are not on the magwell but more over the trigger area let me know.  Not really interested in a billet lower for this project.  Worst case I could get an 80% lower and a buddy of mine has a small machine shop, I could do my own but I would rather buy a turnkey lower and have someone like M60joe do the magwell work.

The Ares lower is cut much higher then the Barry Arms. A few years ago there was a guy selling some 80% lowers custom machined just like the ARES lowers. I almost bought one they were $175 I think but figured I would just get one later. Then one day the guy vanished and I haven't seen him since. I didn't get any of his info either. It's too bad Ares just doesn't sell the high cut receivers I think they would sell a ton of them. Maybe 80% Arms would be interested in running some custom high cut receivers. Hmm...

The issue with the super high cut receivers is you Lose the ablity to accept magazines...

Yea, I intend to do one like the Barry Arms so I can still use a mag if I choose. It looks to be about as short as I can go and keep the mag catch. Fightlite shipped my MCR yesterday. There was delay from Irma shipping the Labor Day sale orders. I should have mine mid next week. Can't wait to get it out to range.

That's awesome news.
Keep us updated!
I still haven't received any email from them... oh well.

Really that is surprising since I think you ordered yours a couple of days before me.  Maybe call them on Monday?

Yeah, I think I should do that.
Please post some pic when you get yours!

I don't mean to go off topic, but since michaels machines is being mentioned in this thread as an alternative to the MCR, I feel the need to share my experience. Otte quoted me 12 weeks and it took about 8 months. However, it took another 4 months beyond that to get the gun to run and to sort of fix the build quality issues. I ordered it in July 2016, so it's relatively new.

The gun showed up with a severely canted front sight and would not cycle reliably with any kind of ammo. The front sight was so far off that I couldn't zero windage even with the rear adjusted all the way to one side. The rear sight Otte includes is also a weird mish-mash of parts, not a genuine HK 21 sight, and has no elevation zero adjustment, so I could only zero the elevation by dialing up, meaning I had to set it to 600m to zero at 100m. The gun went back to him three times to have this resolved. First two times he put a laser bore sight in and said it was fine. Third time he finally shot the gun, then realized it wasn't correct, and kind of corrected it. It's still canted a little bit, but I can actually zero the windage now with the rear sight almost to one side. He did not refinish the whole gun despite having to re-weld the front sight, so the front end is kind of a two-tone duracoat. You can tell where he reapplied it over the original duracoat. He also gave me a beat up HK21 rear sight so the elevation zero works.

I also sent him my fleming sear in an SEF pack to install in a 4 position, and when it came back the timing was so far off that the trip lever would not actuate in my sp89/mp5k-n. I sent the pack back to him twice and he did nothing. After I sent him videos of my pack not working on multiple hosts, while my friend's DLO pack with all factory internals worked fine on my sp89, he told me to remove my sear from the pack, send it to him, and he'd shift the sear pin upwards to correct the timing. How he would do this without having my sear and host to make sure it's correct is beyond me. Instead I made the much better choice of sending the pack and host to TSC, who re-timed the pack to my SP89 in a day, test fired it, and sent it back. Works perfect now.

Otte also gives questionable shipping advice. He told me to mark the gun as "machine parts" and send UPS ground, along with my pack. This is also how he sent my pack back to me (eep!).

I don't know about you guys, but the only way I'm mailing a transferable sear is by registered mail with full insurance. TSC, on the other hand, sent my sear back to me by registered mail, as it should be.

Unfortunately there are no alternatives in the $10-15K price range for a HK21e or 23e clone, but if I was to do it all over again, I'd pony up for an E parts kit, 91 donor host, and let TSC build an E gun despite costing almost twice as much. Between all the shipping costs and finally paying TSC to fix Otte's crappy workmanship (TSC literally has a "de-Otte" fee), I'm probably into my mm23e for nearly 20K. Another 6-7K for a TSC E gun would be worth it.

Its not really off topic...it just matches what ive been saying. buy an mcr and get ready to wait for a mm beltfed.
Im pretty much over the whole thing, if I do get my stuff and it doesnt run then ill go ape shit.

regardless my sear needs to get back to my dealer, NFA items floating around isnt cool.

That was very brave of you to share your actual experience with rest of us.

Other option is Carlos from Beltfed Precision Products.
He quoted me $10.5K w/ 30days turnaround time.
I've no experience with his product or service from him.
 

I have his gun.

Most of the original parts had heat treat issues and problem with the feed mech. He was trying to get guns out too fast and had problems.

He is replacing the bad parts, and has got things under control AFA speaking to other users.

His gun is better than the MM guns, at least the ones I saw being "fixed." All his new stuff works and is very close to the german stuff.

Once he gets the replacement parts back to me, I will be getting another one.

At the time I was shopping, the reviews of the BPP hosts were not exactly favorable. Plus, hkpro has lots of good reviews of mm E guns. It was only later that I started to find negative reviews of mm guns on other forums.

I would say that if you want a mm21e or 23e, buy a used one, and go shoot it first. Even if it means buying a plane ticket and one night in a hotel, we're talking about a title 1 firearm that costs more than some transferable machine guns.

BPP is right down the street from me and I've always wanted one of his guns then saw your thread over on the PRO and decided to hold off one one of those. One my buddies had an MM gun and took it with us to Big Sandy, thing was having problems all weekend, I said Ugggh the hell with HK beltfed guns.

I saw that thread as well, and I didn't feel comfortable about cutting off communication with their paid customers.

Those HK beltfed clones sound like a nightmare.  I know a guy not far from me that owns quite a few beltfed transferables and he told me on the HK's the only way to go is real HK demilled or from a parts kit.  He sent a Fleming registered receiver 91 to TSC and had it made into a 21 and it runs like a top.  He likes it better than his M60.

I had this issue with MM as well.  I ended up chasing after my sear on a Friday afternoon after the USPS guy just threw the standard priority mail notice in my mailbox.  Ended up driving around the neighborhood trying to find the USPS motorized "rikshaw" truck.  Luckily I eventually found the USPS driver an hour later and my $30K sear+pack was wedged in with a hundred other misc amazon boxes probably carrying bathtub compact disc players.  Of course...there was no insurance either.  WTF?

The actual host gun that went to my FFL came in a cheap cardboard box, which is no where near commensurate for the cost and time investment of the firearm.

If you are buying a MM21/23e make sure to send him a hard case for your host so your $15K / 1 year wait investment doesnt get fucked up by the UPS monkeys and insist on the sear (if you sent one) being returned via USPS registered mail.

I don't know what it is about many machinegun dealers and gunsmiths but its been my experience that a significant percentage of them they take huge risks with customers property in terms of poor shipping advice and/or their own return shipments.

Once again today I had to deal with a seller today who I bought a 10/22 from a couple months back.   The seller (FFL07/02) initially insisted to ship the MG via UPS.  I told him "have you read UPSs terms of carriage?...you know the part where it explicitly calls out its against their rules to ship automatic weapons".   USP insurance is crap to start with but its completely worthless if you violate their terms of service.

Finally convince them to ship UPSP registered (they have never heard of that service).  Ended up having to ship them a hard case, with a box, with the proper USPS paper security tape, and instructions on how to use it.

Fast forward to today.

Get a call today from FFL seller  "USPS wont insure for more than $5000, what do you want me to do?  
Me: Well are you shipping it registered mail?  They insure to $50K
FFL: Whats that?  (me grumbling jesus christ I have only emailed you four times about this)
Me: Go back, tell them you want to ship and insure it registered mail.  (FFL protesting as he lost his place in line and was now outside).   Remember that special security tape I sent you.....its for r-e-g-i-s-t-e-r-e-d mail. If  you were going to send it with stamps why would I go to all this trouble.

The issues I have had over the years, even with "recommended" folks is mind numbing.  Its like they just don't give two shits if your stuff is lost or damaged.  

For folks who routinely deal with firearms in the 5 digit price tag range, I would think the only option would be registered and fully insured.   You ever return a watch to Rolex for service, they will refuse any shipments not sent USPS registered.  Rolex will only return ship via USPS registered.  Rolex still goes to this trouble for the average run of the mill stainless model costing about what an entry level MG costs and in most cases could be replaced in an hour by visiting your local jeweler.

My advice to anyone shipping machineguns or sears back and forth is to be extremely specific about how you want the return shipped back. Get it in writing and provide all the packing materials. Half the time FFLs will still resist and want to just put your sear in a  cracker jack box, sealed up with used band-aids, and ship it to via UPS ground with no insurance.

While I had some return shipping concerns and also experienced similar "lead time" forecasting challenges.   I will say that overall my 23ek runs extremely well when fed ammo it likes.

My only functional gripe is that it really only wants 62gr ammo and I wish that had been made more clear to me upfront.    

Even with a 20++ locking piece, bringing the bolt gap up a bit, it still wont reliably digest a wide variety of 55gr ammo unless a suppressor is attached.  If its clean and fed hot M193 ammo it will run.  But give it slightly lower power 55gr and it will FTE every 4 or 5 rounds.

I think you can still use Fedex to ship machine guns overnight also unless they have changed their rules but I agree USPS registered is the best.  I recently had my new to me RDIAS ship by the seller.  It came UPS overnight shipped on a Thursday but due to equipment issues it did not deliver on Friday.  Through tracking said it would deliver on Monday.  Driver threw on front porch Saturday morning with no signature.  I was tracking the whole time and called my FFL.  He said he was out running errands but would check it out when he was done.  Luckily very small box was still sitting outside when he got there.  Unbelievable to me.  Filed a complaint and did not even get shipping refunded.  They are terrible.  My MCR upper shows out for delivery today by yep, UPS...

Congrats on your 10/22 I have wanted a Norrell pack 10/22 for a while (if that is what you got), they just come up for sale so seldom I seem to always miss them.

To the best of my knowledge, Fedex still technically accepts machineguns (priority overnight only) but their insurance makes a bunch of call out that it wont cover items due to collector value.  So the insurance with fedex on a transferable machinegun would probably be an extreme uphill battle to collect on.

If you are forced to use Fedex its best to have the item shipped with Adult signature required and with a hold for pickup option so they dont even both trying to deliver it to the doorstep.   Obviously this requires more commitment on the receiving FFLs part (assuming its not coming direct to you) and you may have to pay them more to go to the Fedex hub to pick it up in person but it pretty much prevents the scenario you just described of the machinegun left on the doorstep.  (which I have had happen as well)  Not a bad idea to have 3rd party insurance cover it as well.

I had my Shrike come to me via FedEx, Adult Sig, hold for pickup from Ruben many years back.   At the time his deal was a Shrike + a case of ammo.  He ships the Shrike no problems but is out of ammo at the time but said he would ship later.   Ok no big deal..I am not super concerned about the case of ammo.   A month or so goes by and I get a call from Ruben, "why did you return the ammo to me".   My response "what ammo?".   Come to find out a couple weeks after he shipped me the Shrike he got the ammo in, he shipped it to the FedEx hub "hold for pickup", but never told me he shipped it.  It sat their for 10 days before it was returned to him.  I told him I cant pick up what I don't know what was shipped to me.  To his credit he realized the mistake and reshipped it and provided a tracking number.

I have only done fedex overnight for a machinegun many years ago for an M60 that was too large for USPS.   It was an expensive proposition to have a custom wooden shipment crate made, ship the crate to the seller, and then a really big/heavy return priority overnight shipment done.  I think the overnight return shipment via Fedex was in the $500 to $600 range.   All in,  between the wooden shipment crate, the pelican case that went in the crate, the shipment of the empty crate/pelican to the dealer, the overnight Fedex return shipment, plus the 3rd party insurance it was close to a $1000 proposition.