I have bought things from Ruben before, slightly overpriced, but mint condition and trustworthy. How out of the ballpark would this be compared to the same gun being run on a no reserve GunBroker auction? 20k you think?

http://dealernfa.com/shop/colt-ar15a2-wilson-arms-excellent-sp327872/

Reuben is very trust worthy, which is something you pay a premium for. With that said his prices are crazy high. A Colt SP1, large front pin, slab side, conversion rifle should be around $18k

If you're on a tight budget and don't mind a M16 RR that needs refinished and I know of one that is $16k just shoot me a PM and I'll give you the details

Definitely would like to take a look, PM sent

Is the rate of fire the same on converted / original colt all the same? Stupid question but just curious

Yes the ROF is the same unless somebody really butchered drilling the auto sear hole.  Even then I cant image you could fuck up the auto sear hole to the point that it would appreciably change the ROF and the gun would still function.

At some point if the sear hole is too far forward the bolt wont trip the sear or two far back and the carrier wont close all the way.

ROF is really much more a dependent function of the barrel length, gas port size, and the buffer.

Topic Moved

I'll just throw this out there OP.
That is an SP1 conversion...with the large takedown pins and all....

When it comes to the ar platform versatility is always highly regarded(though I'm now seeing how untrue that really is).  In the case of the SP colts.....without the help of adapters there is realitively no versatility.  

I just bought a NIB colt m16a1 locally for less than that SP1, if that helps answer whether that is a good deal from Ruben....

IMO that sendra converted by bushmaster is a better gun, but still extremely high based on the current market.  The convenience of not being worried about a scam is worth it to me.  If I hadn't been offered one locally I would have probably paid more and bought from Ruben again.

^Absolutely, and it will probably add value to the receiver in the long run.

Who does the bushing work?

/http://m60joe.com/

Is there anyone that converted that is known to stay away from? For example, why is the SGW / Metro Tech Converted 5k less? Just because its not Colt?

And I saw in another post "cast". Since I'm not familiar with some of these lowers, how do you know?

ETA: Another question, for example in the link below it says "J. Stemple, Groveport, Ohio, is the Maker of this Machine Gun" but it is marked Hydra-Matic, neither of which I've heard of. So are there any to stay away from? I assume someone has to have a bad reputation converting. I assume the lowers are all fine for the most part, its just the conversion that is an issue sometimes?

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/662147056

Yeah avoid cast lowers, most are easy to spot as they have raised lettering rather than stamped or engraved lettering.

Most non-colt forged lowers are durably but may not be in spec compared to a colt. With a colt you are paying $5-10k more for the name, roll mark and assurance that it's plug and play ready, to the best of my knowledge it's rare for any colt to have spec issues. But as previously stated most non-colts can be worked on and put in spec for a few hundred to a thousand dollars. If you have cash burning a hole in your pocket it's a no brainier, buy a colt. For the rest of society who doesn't have a money tree on the back yard a non-colt is a great option to keep the cost down. Also might want to look into a RLL I have seen them go for $12-15k recently.

I was thinking it was probably a reweld given the hydramatic markings.  Personally I think it would be an interesting piece of history and I would probably take one over a cast receiver - figuring if anything did break I could get it repaired.

This brings be to a different question I've wondered about, with any firearm really, but I see it in silencer forums every once in a while and always wondered...

I've heard (I should say I "think" I've read this) of silencer companies letting people send a destroyed tube back to be scrapped and just remaking it with the same serial number, I dont get why they wouldn't allow someone to just remake a receiver with original markings? For example if you cracked the weld, I assume you just have to make due and re-weld that again? Or on a lighter note, say you find a really f'ed up receiver, can you completely refinish and re-engrave the markings (since it will be the same receiver still)?

ETA: So what constitutes a re-weld vs a an original? Did all companies make factory MG's and also have re-welds in all brands or do you literally have to ask/check everyone? I never see a for sale add specifying a re-weld so I assume there has to be some way to tell from brands/makers...

Thanks for the help

ATF does not approve of remaking MG receivers.  On the other hand, they haven't went around and collected the re-made Oly stop sign lowers.  Personally I would avoid an Oly stop sign lower as I wouldn't want to risk the ATF deciding to round them up.

How could you tell if it's a reweld? I'm not sure where I should be looking for damage/repair.

If "John Stemple" or anyone other than "GM Hydramatic" is listed as the "Manufacturer" on the Form 3 or Form 4, and/or that person or company marked the receiver with their name and address as required by law, then it's a reweld. However, even if GM Hydramatic is listed as the manufacturer on the form, it is not a guarantee that the rifle isn't a reweld. Here's why:

Back in the good old pre-'86 days, an individual or company could "manufacture" a machine gun on a Form 1, just as they still can do with SBR's today. Unfortunately, some people didn't understand that THEY were the manufacturer of the NFA firearm, NOT the original manufacturer of the Title 1 (semi-auto) firearm. Here's an example: Long ago in 1985, Joe Blow decided to convert his Colt SP1 into a machine gun, so he filled out a Form 1. When Joe got to the part of the form where he wrote in the "Manufacturer", he might have done it correctly and written "Joe Blow", or he might have misunderstood what was wanted and incorrectly written "Colt Firearms" instead. The ATF was nowhere near as proactive about checking forms for accuracy back then as they are today, so errors like this could and did happen.

The same could happen with a reweld. Back in pre-'86 times, the saw-cut front and rear M16 receiver sections were considered to be scrap metal. Therefore, anyone welding the two chunks of scrap together was legally and literally "manufacturing" a machine gun. Even so, an error could be made on a form, and oftentimes the manufacturer's markings back then were quite shallow, often being done with a "vibra-pen", making future identification a bit more tricky.

When buying a supposedly uncut U.S. Property marked M16, such as a Hydramatic, it would be very wise to check the pedigree of said rifle before spending the big bucks. At a minimum, an FOIA check should be done, and at the maximum, an X-ray of the receiver can be taken. The FOIA check should reveal enough information to determine the original source of the rifle. If not, then an X-ray will remove all doubt, with the weld showing up as a vertical band right down the center of the receiver, behind the magazine well.

One final item of interest regarding M16 rewelds is that some of them are done so well that you cannot see the weld at all. John Stemple apparently did such good work rewelding M16 receivers that the ATF confiscated several of his receivers. The ATF thought that he had "papered" some "illicitly acquired", fully-intact USGI M16 receivers, which would be a serious crime. After a thorough examination of those receivers, ATF determined that they were indeed rewelds, and thus were returned to John and subsequently sold as transferable machine guns. Now THAT'S some skilled welding and finishing!

Wow, that really is both impressive and informative. I was trying to visually spot the weld, but I'm honestly not even sure where on the receiver to look. Doing some research, it looks like it may have even been a front half and rear half of two separate receivers that were welded back up together?

Has anyone ever heard of a rewelded lower failing? For about 2/3 of the cost of a real Colt M16A1, these are very intriguing...

Due to the fact that a saw-cut M16 receiver becomes "too short" lengthwise by the thickness of the saw blade that cut it in half, it is an almost certainty that every M16 reweld has a different front and rear "half" than as originally manufactured. Tony_K does an excellent job explaining the process, but in essence, a "long" cut front half and a "long" cut rear half are both trimmed to length, so that they butt-together at the proper length of an M16 lower. The receiver halves would then (hopefully) be locked together in a fixture and the cut area would be welded, making the two halves back into a (more-or-less) intact M16 lower receiver.

As less-than-ideal as the above process sounds, and actually is, I have never personally heard of a rewelded M16 lower failing at the weld. This is in spite of the fact that the usual 7075-T6 aluminum alloy that M16 lowers are forged from is considered to be unsuitable for welding by most professional welders. There is apparently a material difference between a "weld" and a "good weld". The M16 lower is an inherently unstressed part, which certainly helps the rewelded receiver's chances of remaining in one piece. The old adage of them "never being as good as they once were" is certainly true, but it seems that if done properly, they might be good enough.

Hmm, thanks guys. I'll have to think this one over carefully.
They said it was a Stemple, but they can't tell if it's a reweld. Lol...

Are there SP1 rewelds or are they all original? Just wondering if the factory auto M16 is the only non reweld

Any backstory on how the uncut GM Hydramatics got out?

I would love to have an original Hydramatic.  I wonder what they sell for in todays market.

I find that so odd, and interesting(not that I don't believe it).
You would think that a collector would want the name recognition of a COLT M16, and would be willing to pay more for the colt, regardless if the other non colt factory m16s were issued military firearms, and far less of them were registered.

I would guess that would be the reason though, that they're much more rare.

So no documented cases of a rewelded lower failing right? And even if it did, one could have it repaired and rewelded right?

I have never heard of a reweld breaking.   Although it it did I suspect it would be challenging to repair.  In my personal experience welding on AR15 lowers (as well as what I have read from other folks) you get shrinkage of the receiver in the welded area.  I suspect that if you were to try and weld a significant crack on just one side a receiver you would probably get some warping.   Normally when these rewelds were done both sides were welded and the two halves were cut along to allow for 0.05" worth of shrinkage on both sides.

If memory serves correctly John Norrell (who arguably did some of the finest M16 rewelds) suggested that his receivers only be used in a rifle configuration due to the extra recoil stress that shorty uppers and carbine buffer arrangement presented to the lower receiver.

If it were me I personally would take a forged Oly or Sendra over a re-welded lower no matter how well it was done.   I would keep an eye out for a decently priced PAWS converted Oly and then have it upgraded.

I recently finished a long project to bring a Oly up to spec and after trips to M60Joe and Victor at US Anodizing, it was rebuilt will all high quality parts (Colt & Knights) and it now basically brand new M16 with a flawless dark black anodizing and extra tight pin holes.

Attached File

Interestinggggg

Took me a bit to find the interview where John discusses his reweld technique for the M16 lowers, how he welded them through the thin wall area of the fire control area, plus some of the older M16 variants had thin fire control group side walls to begin with (prior to having a welding seam through them) and the recommendation for running them in a rifle config.

One other thing to consider on a reweld M16 is that it most likely either isnt anodized (or is missing  alot of anodzing) and is coated with some type of paint to cover up with weld area.

Attached File


Attached File


Attached File

double post

That's a damn cool post / piece of history.

So you mentioned a forged Oly or Sendra lower, but how do you know if its in its original forged state and not a reweld? And second, why a PAWS converted Olympic, and what do you mean have it upgraded, just looked over? I don't think I've even seen them, are they just know to be slightly better quality? Thanks for the help

Oh wow... very cool! Would it be possible for you to post the rest of that article here? Pleeeeeeeease????

I guess its theoretically possible that a "commercial" AR15 receiver could be rewelded as well.  However, it doesnt make sense that somebody in the civilian world would take commercial receivers, destroy then, and then weld them back together to make an M16.   The whole reweld cottage industry was based off demilled US Gov. property M16 receivers where the military destroyed perfectly good guns to sell as scrap aluminum.  Talented C2 could start with a couple bucks worth of material cost from demilled lowers and end up with salable M16 receivers if you had the right talent to weld the parts back together.

To the best of my knowledge the military never purchase Sendra or Oly receivers in order to be able to demil them to sell as scrap at auction.

I suggested a PAWS (Police Automatic Weapons Systems) converted Oly/SGW receivers as Bob Imel got receivers from Oly/SGW that were prepped for conversion from the factory and all he had to really do was drill the hole and engrave the auto position.  Bob Imel at PAWS converted a lot of guns and historically ended up with a good end product.

That said, any SGW/Oly from that era is most likely going to have some inherent dimensional issues that even a skilled conversion (like PAWS) would not have corrected.   This will include a tight magwell designed for 70/80s era aluminum mags (so modern polymer mags will be a tight fit and/or not drop free).  Oly/SGWs also have notoriously high top decks that make modern upper fitment a challenge.   Plus the quality of the 80s era anodizing isnt as nice, thick, tough, or dark black, as a modern coat of modern type 3 anodizing will be.

If you take a forged Oly/SGW/Sendra lower that was converted by a quality C2 manufacturer (like Bob at PAWS) and then send it out to have the dimensional issues addressed by M60JOE and a fresh coat of Type 3 anodizing done by US Anodizing, you will end up with a really high quality receiver that is probably 25% less in cost than a Colt M16.

There are some bushmaster converted SENDRAs that are also known to be high quality conversions but they are much more rare than PAWS converted Olys.  They will have less dimensional issue that Olys but could still probably use a dimensional touch up and SENDRAs usually have weird purple-ish anodizing on them that would certainly benefit from a trip to US Anodizing to ditch the purple color and get the conversion work area+sear pin hole anodized.

Hope this helps explain the recommendation.

3rd page is now added.

Perfect explanation, now I just wish there were more than 3 posted on the whole damn web a week

Thanks again

No comment on the Colt, but looking at that site it blows my mind what legal full auto guns sell for.  An Intratec KG99 for $9995 WTF!  I used to have a few AB-10 and they were ridiculous POS.  I had picked them up because they were crazy cheap, like $125, and looked like fun.  The KG99 looks to be essentially the same gun.