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Posted: 5/6/2017 2:48:04 PM EDT
So I bought a M10/45 last year and am hoping to get an AR15/M16 this year at some point.
Does anyone have an article or rundown of how to choose? Seems like the range of Colt prices are 20-30k, so obviously there are some variations (A!, A2, Wilson, etc) of Colt that are desired, and others that are 1/3 cheaper. Can someone explain? Then there are "other" models which make up about 10% of what I see. |
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Best common gun is going to be a factory colt machinegun. Past that ones converted by a factory vs an individual. Like the sendra ones converted by bushmaster. You have cast essential arms lower and olympic made ones that I'd think cover the most of the rest. That and converted colt sp1 guns. The colt sp1's need an adapter to run normal uppers due to the large front take down pin. You have some la france ones that I'm not sure who made the lower one and a few other factory m16's which are rare are more expensive.
For colt factory guns you may want to read this thread and others. Uzi talk thread You have some questionable guns out there. Story is someone who worked for colt remade some older guns. Some of it may have been after the atf cracked down on remaking receivers. Will anything come of it? Who knows. Personally I'd avoid guns that look like they are newer receivers. IE a bunch of the new in box guns floating around and things that just don't add up. Stuff like the colt m16a1 guns factory finished in black instead of gray with the latest reinforcements on the lower. |
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IE a bunch of the new in box guns floating around and things that just don't add up. Stuff like the colt m16a1 guns factory finished in black instead of gray with the latest reinforcements on the lower. View Quote |
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There's some excellent advice above. I would like to point out that with Colt, there are no hard/fast rules. You will find A2 (AR15 and M16 both) marked guns that do NOT have A2 reinforcements. And I've seen Colt M16A1 marked guns that were really A2 lowers with reinforcements, just not marked as such. Just saying...many things are possible with Colt. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
There's some excellent advice above. I would like to point out that with Colt, there are no hard/fast rules. You will find A2 (AR15 and M16 both) marked guns that do NOT have A2 reinforcements. And I've seen Colt M16A1 marked guns that were really A2 lowers with reinforcements, just not marked as such. Just saying...many things are possible with Colt. The best is to quote a post form the above thread: Cat in the bag
Yes felon Vahan is relative of Colt employee Yes Oly remanufactured receivers for customers with the original SN circa 2003 than ATF put a stop to it. Yes, guns with model designations that did not exist in 1986 have been selling from the Colt employee collection for going on two years now. there are said to be hundreds of guns in that collection Yes, some of the guns have A2 receivers marked with COLTS MFG CO INC, a designation that did not exist until 1989 Yes some other guns are marked with the 1986 specific COLTS FIREARMS DIVISION , but on post 2000 receivers with A4 reinforcements. Yes this most recent post has ABSURD rollmarks like M4 enhanced. hqving almost been a sucker for some of Spiwaks offerings back in December, I learned the above facts. Nuance and inference from communication with several of the dealers has led me to the following speculation Employee did 2-3 or more runs remanufacturing guns with old registered SNs either bc the old registered receivers were damaged or bc he wanted cool rollmarks. On the run he did circa 1994, he grabbed A2 receivers but forgot to change the manufacturer designation on the rollstamp machine. What a knucklehead. On the run(s) he did circa 2008 +\- 2011 there were no A2 forgings to be found at the Colt plant. which is why you see A4 forgings. by then he got the manufacturer markings problem fixed. This explains pretty much every anomaly you see. But how to know if, circa 1998, he didnt recognize his gaffe with the manufacturer markings and so a proper run on A2 receivers? I mantain that he did the community a great disservice. Only beneficiaries are his heirs and the dealers, many of which are playing dumb which is a whole other issue we could talk about. I'm guessing the serial numbers for those would end up coming up as m16, m16a1, or m16a2 guns. Now it is possible that some were redone before the atf put an end to allowing registered title 2 weapons to be remade and they got a variance from the atf to change the marking. So far I haven't seen anyone producing paperwork to say that. I'm kinda wondering what the form 3s and 4s are saying for these guns. I wonder if they actually say whats engraved on the side of the gun or are marked a1 or a2? |
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...Now it is possible that some were redone before the atf put an end to allowing registered title 2 weapons to be remade and they got a variance from the atf to change the marking... View Quote Something about "not with a 10 foot pole" comes to mind here... |
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M16 Market Data
Transferable M16 machine guns and estimated market values: RLL $13-16k RDIAS $30-35k RR Non-Colt Cast AR15 Conversion $17-19k RR Non-Colt AR15 Conversion $18-20k RR Colt AR15 SP1 Conversion $18-20k RR Colt AR15 614 $23-25k RR Colt M16 $25-30k RR Colt M16A1 $25-30k RR Colt M16A2 $30-35k RR Colt M16A2 Commando $35-40k (Marked "Auto" instead of "Burst") If you just want a M16 to shoot get a Non-Colt conversion RR. Im not a fan of the SP1 lowers because of the slab side and front pin. I prefer the non-colts because they have the fence, small pins and some are even marked "M16" and "Safe, Semi, Auto" whereas the SP1s are marked "Safe, Fire" when they came from the factor, some will have "Safe, Fire, Auto" but the word auto was hammered onto the lower at a later date by whoever converted the rifle to a machine gun. The non-colts sometimes are slightly out of spec though so its a good idea to have it sent off to a competent gunsmith such as M60 Joe I sent mine to USAnodizing, they milled down a couple spots on mine to get it back in spec and then re-anodized it, now it looks brand new! If you want something with collector value then pick up a Colt M16, M16A1 or M16A2. Keep in mind you will be paying $5,000-10,000+ just for the fact that it says "Colt" and "M16" on the lower. RDIAS are the most "versatile" as they can be dropped in semi-auto AR15s. Personally I never saw the convenience being worth the premium in price, the AR15/M16 is so easy to modify, you cant swap uppers on a RR lower and can have different barrel lengths, calibers, etc...in seconds. A RLL is the cheapest way to get into the M16 market, IMO the biggest disadvantages is you have to use mil spec triggers, once you get used to a Geissele two stage super select fire (SSF) trigger its hard to go back. You also cant shoot 22lr and you have to use a SP1 Bolt carrier. But I saw one sell for under $12k recently so if youre on a budget it may be the way to go. Websites to watch for good deals on machine guns: http://www.sturmgewehr.com http://www.atfmachinegun.com http://www.autoweapons.com http://www.impactguns.com http://www.subguns.com http://www.onlythebestfirearms.com http://www.davidspiwak.com http://dealernfa.com http://www.gunbroker.com http://www.nfasales.com http://mtmmfg.com http://www.classiiidealers.com/ http://www.westernfirearms.com/ http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/class-iii-full-auto/ http://www.urban-armory.com/ http://www.ar15.com/forums/f_7/118_NFA_Firearms_andamp__Parts.html Website that tracks machine gun values: http://www.machinegunpriceguide.com/ |
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There is an unusual non-Colt variant. Before the ban, Group Industries (GI) made cast stainless steel AR-15s of which right around 100 were made into M16s by GI. These rarely come up for public sale any more, and when they do, they command a premium over the other non-Colt manufacturers and sometimes even the Colt M16/M16A1.
MHO, YMMV, etc. |
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Did ATF ever "allow" for Transferable Machine Gun receivers to be "remanufactured", or did they simply discover an illegal process underway, and publicly order it to stop? Apparently it is illegal to do this now, and the courts have set precedent that ATF cannot "grandfather" guns (even IF they wanted to). Something about "not with a 10 foot pole" comes to mind here... View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Did ATF ever "allow" for Transferable Machine Gun receivers to be "remanufactured", or did they simply discover an illegal process underway, and publicly order it to stop? Apparently it is illegal to do this now, and the courts have set precedent that ATF cannot "grandfather" guns (even IF they wanted to). Something about "not with a 10 foot pole" comes to mind here... While this is more hearsay than anything my understanding is that most of the drop in auto sears were aluminium at first and many of the steel ones are remakes. This is coming from machine gun smiths I've talked to. Good news for those who have them is that it would be very hard to catch. I wouldn't be surprised if this happened with lightning links as well. I mean if one was to break where it couldn't be fixed easily it wouldn't be hard to make a new one and make the engraving(which was etched on many poorly) look the same. Quoted:
There is an unusual non-Colt variant. Before the ban, Group Industries (GI) made cast stainless steel AR-15s of which right around 100 were made into M16s by GI. These rarely come up for public sale any more, and when they do, they command a premium over the other non-Colt manufacturers and sometimes even the Colt M16/M16A1. MHO, YMMV, etc. You also have Harrington and Richardson and General Motors guns which are very rare. Those generally command a premium just because they are rare. |
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There is an unusual non-Colt variant. Before the ban, Group Industries (GI) made cast stainless steel AR-15s of which right around 100 were made into M16s by GI. These rarely come up for public sale any more, and when they do, they command a premium over the other non-Colt manufacturers and sometimes even the Colt M16/M16A1. MHO, YMMV, etc. View Quote |
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Seems strange to pay extra for a steel lower given it would easily add a pound or more to your rifle. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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There is an unusual non-Colt variant. Before the ban, Group Industries (GI) made cast stainless steel AR-15s of which right around 100 were made into M16s by GI. These rarely come up for public sale any more, and when they do, they command a premium over the other non-Colt manufacturers and sometimes even the Colt M16/M16A1. MHO, YMMV, etc. |
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The premise is that steel is stronger than aluminum and thus less like likely to experience inadvertent breakage (e.g., the damage that A2 reinforcements are intended to eliminate) or damage from so-called "kaboom" incidents. I, personally, am not worried about the aluminum RR I have. View Quote |
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i paid big bucks for one of those NIB M16a2 government marked guns.......i regret not just getting a basic M16 a1 and having $$ left over to buy something else
i would just look for a $23-24k M16a1 in nice shape and buy it get a Colt.... Colt will always sell faster and is always going to be the most desirable M16 |
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i paid big bucks for one of those NIB M16a2 government marked guns.......i regret not just getting a basic M16 a1 and having $ left over to buy something else i would just look for a $23-24k M16a1 in nice shape and buy it get a Colt.... Colt will always sell faster and is always going to be the most desirable M16 View Quote |
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Im sure you could work out a trade with a dealer for a M16A1 and a MAC or some other entry level subgun View Quote |
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I have an Olympic Arms conversion. I sent it to M60Joe who looked it over, milled the top, and sent it back. I then sent it to Victor at US Anodizing and he took off the old finish, applied a new layer of anodize, and returned it. It's absolutely as perfect as can be. Every upper fits on it, no issues, no problems. Not all Olys are lemons - as internet opinion may have you believe.
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Ordered about $500ish worth of parts yesterday to finish the lower off. (Colt M16 LPK, KNS pins, Colt Recoil Spring + H3 Buffer, Colt castle nut, Knights ambi-selector and trigger guard, POF enhanced buffer tube, Vltor SASE rear plate, magpul CTR stock, and a tango down grip) Now I just need to figure out what to do with it..... Anybody interesting 1980s vintage Oly M16 rattle-can "camo" parts kit? never been fired and only dropped once. View Quote I know the one I have coming is not in its original config but I'm not sure on the buffer tube. If it is the stock colt one and mine was a carbine from the factory and it still has the factory staking it will stay on. If not new parts. It is going through a well known machinegun smith so I'm going to have him just do everything while it is waiting on the form 4 to clear. |
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Spartikis,
"RDIAS are the most "versatile" as they can be dropped in semi-auto AR15s. Personally I never saw the convenience being worth the premium in price, the AR15/M16 is so easy to modify, you cant swap uppers on a RR lower and can have different barrel lengths, calibers, etc...in seconds. " I have a dias so im partial to them, to me its more than versitility than convince. I wouldnt want to cut a piece out of a RR to utilize some of the beltfed kits out there.. or damage a RR by forgeting to put a shim in the buffer tubewith the shrike/mcr uppers, or their is droping your RR with the rear takedown pin pulled. A kaboom events isnt a huge concern in general but a dias would survive that much better aswell. 9mm kits egging fcg holes. Less worry about fucking up your receiver installing different parts like bolt catch...ive never botched it myself but have seen many boogered roll pins. Every time i see a receiver with a broken tab/ear for the trigger guard i wanna cry. All that said, RR are fine. but in the end Sears will be worth more than RR |
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I also have steel DIAS and RLL.
I don't have to pamper the guns, and I could take advantage of all the latest receiver update. They're extremely versatile. |
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Spartikis, "RDIAS are the most "versatile" as they can be dropped in semi-auto AR15s. Personally I never saw the convenience being worth the premium in price, the AR15/M16 is so easy to modify, you cant swap uppers on a RR lower and can have different barrel lengths, calibers, etc...in seconds. " I have a dias so im partial to them, to me its more than versitility than convince. I wouldnt want to cut a piece out of a RR to utilize some of the beltfed kits out there.. or damage a RR by forgeting to put a shim in the buffer tubewith the shrike/mcr uppers, or their is droping your RR with the rear takedown pin pulled. A kaboom events isnt a huge concern in general but a dias would survive that much better aswell. 9mm kits egging fcg holes. Less worry about fucking up your receiver installing different parts like bolt catch...ive never botched it myself but have seen many boogered roll pins. Every time i see a receiver with a broken tab/ear for the trigger guard i wanna cry. All that said, RR are fine. but in the end Sears will be worth more than RR View Quote |
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I can see the argument for not paying double a RR for a sear.....im glad my sear was equal in value toma lower level RR when i bought it. That was only lIke 4/5 years ago.
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I had a great DIAS and sold it to buy RR guns. Could never get comfortable with a conversion device that could literally fall out of the gun and it bugged me that it operated all the time unlike a true auto sear. I also found the "more versatile" argument wanting, you have to move F/A parts from receiver to receiver so you tend to put the setup in one gun and just leave it. For some folks it has value (and commands a premium) but the only thing I miss about mine is I sold it about 20k short of its current value...
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This is good info. I, too, am looking to enter the M16 arena. I've been looking at colt and other M16 rifles. Sub guns seems to have a lot of rifles for sale or at least links to rifles. The DealerNFA.com guys seems to have a lot of M16 stuff but dang.. I need to keep saving
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This is good info. I, too, am looking to enter the M16 arena. I've been looking at colt and other M16 rifles. Sub guns seems to have a lot of rifles for sale or at least links to rifles. The DealerNFA.com guys seems to have a lot of M16 stuff but dang.. I need to keep saving View Quote But remember: You can't pay too much for a transferable machine gun. You can only pay it too soon. |
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