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Posted: 5/11/2014 5:47:12 AM EDT
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I've recently become interested in getting a M16. I have a several suppressors and SBRs but have never bought a MG.
1. When buying an M16 am I basically paying for the receiver? This gun is to be shot and treated more like a tool than a show piece so I'm not really interested in a never fired model or some such type of collectors piece. 2. Where are some good, credible places to search for MGs? I see lots of places online but lots look sketchy. 3. Does it matter what brand? i.e. Colt vs Olympic Arms, etc. 4. How much should I be looking at spending? I know several of these have likely been addressed somewhere but there doesn't seem to be all that much info out there on MGs like there is on suppressors, SBRs, etc. Any info would be greatly appreciated. |
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Quoted: I've recently become interested in getting a M16. I have a several suppressors and SBRs but have never bought a MG. 1. When buying an M16 am I basically paying for the receiver? This gun is to be shot and treated more like a tool than a show piece so I'm not really interested in a never fired model or some such type of collectors piece. There are 3 ways to have a full auto M16. 1. RR (Registered receiver) - The lower is the registered part and it is a true M16. The lower is drilled for a sear. 2. RDIAS (registered drop in auto sear) - This is a piece of metal that acts like a sear and is the registered part. You can move the RDIAS to any host you want. 3. LL (lightning link) - Piece of metal that converts the gun to full auto. There is no semi-auto. Its safe or full auto. 2. Where are some good, credible places to search for MGs? I see lots of places online but lots look sketchy. Best places are http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/nfa4sale.cgi http://www.subguns.com/classifieds/?db=nfafirearms&category=All+Items+in+this+Category&query=category&search_and_display_db_button=on&results_format=headlines&website=&language=&session_key= or gunbroker Then you have the typical dealers. Just type in Class 3 dealers in google and a bunch will show up. 3. Does it matter what brand? i.e. Colt vs Olympic Arms, etc. This is all personal preference. Colts will demand a premium over the other brands. Just make sure the lower is in spec. 4. How much should I be looking at spending? Anywhere from $15-40K depending on manufacturer, rarity, and condition. I know several of these have likely been addressed somewhere but there doesn't seem to be all that much info out there on MGs like there is on suppressors, SBRs, etc. Any info would be greatly appreciated. |
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And within the Registered Receiver (RR) category there are several sub-categories. Originally manufactured RRs, such as Colt's (probably the largest number as they bought or had the licenses to the original patents which didn't expire until what turned out to be late in the game), Group Industries, GM HydraMatic, Harrington & Richardson; and maybe a couple others that someone else can fill in; welded Franken-lowers generally made from pieces of scraped M16 lowers originally made by Colt's, GM HydraMatic, and Harrington & Richardson; converted semi-auto Colt AR-15s (probably the second largest number); and converted semi-auto non-Colt AR-15 pattern rifles.
MHO, YMMV, etc. Best of luck with whatever you decide to pursue. |
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If I had a lower receiver and it somehow becomes damaged, is one able to have it repaired or remade with that serial number?
Also, I'm assuming the old Colt M16s have mil-spec pins. I think I would prefer to buy the receiver but it doesn't have to be Colt. This is mainly for fun and shooting and I am likely to never part with it so I am not stuck on the Colt brand. I do not see this as an investment but rather a very expensive toy. Basically, I'm looking for a mil-spec lower receiver that is registered with NFA as a MG. Thanks for the help guys. |
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For a shooter grade gun you should be able to pickup a converted non-Colt or even a converted Colt AR-15 lower for around $15k. Add $1-2k if the upper is nice.
My only reco is to work with a reliable reputable dealer. They are in the business of handling large amounts of money and keeping things safe during a lengthy wait process. If out of state, ideally you can transfer to a local dealer that will let you shoot it. If its an individual selling it, better get references and do some checking. |
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If I had a lower receiver and it somehow becomes damaged, is one able to have it repaired or remade with that serial number? Also, I'm assuming the old Colt M16s have mil-spec pins. I think I would prefer to buy the receiver but it doesn't have to be Colt. This is mainly for fun and shooting and I am likely to never part with it so I am not stuck on the Colt brand. I do not see this as an investment but rather a very expensive toy. Basically, I'm looking for a mil-spec lower receiver that is registered with NFA as a MG. Thanks for the help guys. It's almost impossible to damage a lower to the point where it cannot be repaired. I personally never heard of that happening but I'm rather new to the MG world. I'm sure more experienced people will chime in but I'm confident to say that having a lower going complete kaboom on you is never going to happen. However if a lower is somehow destroyed you cannot make a new one with a same serial number. The ATF made sure of that 
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RR Non-colt $14-16k
RLL $13-18k RDIAS $20-25k RR Colt M16A1 $20-25k RR Colt M16A2 $25-30k For your situation i would avoid colt, while they are a tiny bit more durable and "in spec" you are really paying a massive markup for the name and the history of the firearm, IMO they are more for people who want a show piece, something they brag to their friends about, maybe take out once or twice a year, shoot a couple watermelons and then back in the safe it goes. If you want a M16 for shooting, go with a non-colt RR, RLL or DIAS. There is plenty of info out there that explains the difference between them. I personally recommend the Non-Colt RR as its more of a plug and play, no need for timing the internal parts, no need to modify a modern AR15 platforms to fit the RDIA or RLL which is designed for the older SP1 platform. Also the cost is $5-10k less than a RLL or DIAS. Also, i messaged you a list of auction sites that i have used in the past. |
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I'll just throw this out there.
I have a Colt marked M16 and I love it. The lower hasn't ever given me problems...my uppers have. But that's irrelevant. I know you said you wanted a RR, but I came across this and it doesn't seem like a terrible deal to me considering the market recently. It's aluminum and not steel, but it probably doesn't make a whole lot of difference. Broadhead Armory RDIAS - Gunbroker - 18,500 starting, BIN $20k Not affiliated with the auction All that aside, I like to keep my options open in the long run. Yeah, you might not consider selling it now, but down the line if the prices are right and you need some cash for a new car or a ring or a house, you might want to sell it. So if it's me, if the price difference isn't truly significant, I buy one that at least has "Colt" on the side of it. Whether it's a conversion or a true factory gun doesn't matter so much to you, but the name still will command a premium down the line I think. So if you have an Olympic that's being sold for $15k and a Colt conversion listed at $16500, I'd say buy the colt (assuming both are in comparable condition). That may just be me though. |
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I'll just throw this out there. I have a Colt marked M16 and I love it. The lower hasn't ever given me problems...my uppers have. But that's irrelevant. I know you said you wanted a RR, but I came across this and it doesn't seem like a terrible deal to me considering the market recently. It's aluminum and not steel, but it probably doesn't make a whole lot of difference. Broadhead Armory RDIAS - Gunbroker - 18,500 starting, BIN $20k Not affiliated with the auction All that aside, I like to keep my options open in the long run. Yeah, you might not consider selling it now, but down the line if the prices are right and you need some cash for a new car or a ring or a house, you might want to sell it. So if it's me, if the price difference isn't truly significant, I buy one that at least has "Colt" on the side of it. Whether it's a conversion or a true factory gun doesn't matter so much to you, but the name still will command a premium down the line I think. So if you have an Olympic that's being sold for $15k and a Colt conversion listed at $16500, I'd say buy the colt (assuming both are in comparable condition). That may just be me though. first DIAS i have seen for sale in quite some time. Aluminum are worth less than steel but $20k is still a good deal. |
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<SNIP> Basically, I'm looking for a mil-spec lower receiver that is registered with NFA as a MG. Thanks for the help guys. The highlighted part in red is what I would like to comment on. Back in the dark and ancient days of pre-1986, when it was legal for a common serf to register a machine gun, things were a little different in AR-15dom than they are today. First and foremost: There were NO CNC MACHINES back then! The universally high-quality of ALL AR-15 lower receivers made today is due to their manufacture on CNC machines. Since there were no CNC machines, the machining quality varied greatly between the manufacturers, and even from batch-to-batch for the same manufacturer. The aftermarket receivers made back in the old days were NOT universally high-quality!!! The relative "quality" of the aftermarket receivers made back then was the reason Colts were so highly sought after. The factory Colt is a known quantity: They are all "in-spec" and are precisely machined from "mil-spec" 7075T6 aluminum alloy. The factory Colts don't have issues with swapping different mil-spec uppers, and the machining quality of what they sold back then was just as good as the CNC-made stuff of today. The issues with some aftermarket lowers are myriad and maddening. I won't even go into details here, but if you can think of it, it has happened on an aftermarket lower. However, by now many of the out-of-spec aftermarket lowers have been "fixed", to varying degrees of success. If you buy a factory Colt, you aren't just buying the "prancing pony" logo on its side; you are buying a high-quality product made by a top-tier Military Supplier at the top of its game. |
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Originally P  sted By david05111:
Yeah I'm seriously tempted to snag up that dias. If it was an HK sear, even for 22k maybe, I'd snag it up this second. That's what I really want now, since I already have the RR. Still...I might throw up the 18500 starting bid and see if I steal it, They looked like this . |
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Someone pulled the buy it now trigger quick on that dias Wasn't me. I deliberated very seriously about it for about an hour and decided to commit the funds elsewhere. Still waiting for that deal on an HK sear I've been looking for and if it would have come up when I had just grabbed the Dias, I would have been kicking myself. But I came super close to pushing that button. |
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I spoke to him on the phone on the 10th, he said he would sell it to me for $18,500 and end the auction. Quoted:
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Someone pulled the buy it now trigger quick on that dias I spoke to him on the phone on the 10th, he said he would sell it to me for $18,500 and end the auction. And did you do it? Because if I could have gotten that price guaranteed, I would have. I just was iffy on the 20k I'll be punching myself for not calling if you snagged it for 18.5 |
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And did you do it? Because if I could have gotten that price guaranteed, I would have. I just was iffy on the 20k I'll be punching myself for not calling if you snagged it for 18.5 Quoted:
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Someone pulled the buy it now trigger quick on that dias I spoke to him on the phone on the 10th, he said he would sell it to me for $18,500 and end the auction. And did you do it? Because if I could have gotten that price guaranteed, I would have. I just was iffy on the 20k I'll be punching myself for not calling if you snagged it for 18.5 Even at $20k it was a pretty good deal. I sold one of mine for $25k, and that was to a friend. I bet I could have gotten more if I'd listed it. There was one just listed for $29k. |
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Even at $20k it was a pretty good deal. I sold one of mine for $25k, and that was to a friend. I bet I could have gotten more if I'd listed it. There was one just listed for $29k. Quoted:
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Someone pulled the buy it now trigger quick on that dias I spoke to him on the phone on the 10th, he said he would sell it to me for $18,500 and end the auction. And did you do it? Because if I could have gotten that price guaranteed, I would have. I just was iffy on the 20k I'll be punching myself for not calling if you snagged it for 18.5 Even at $20k it was a pretty good deal. I sold one of mine for $25k, and that was to a friend. I bet I could have gotten more if I'd listed it. There was one just listed for $29k. I know, I know. If it was steel, I would have done it at $20k. And I know aluminum v steel isn't a big deal. I just really, really, really want an HK sear and I would be kicking myself if the right deal comes along for one and I miss it because the money is tied up in something else. I was really on the fence with that dias. I too thought it was a good deal at $20; it's a very good deal at 18.5. It's a very good deal at $20k for a steel one; it's a fantastic deal for a steel one at 18.5. If I could have gotten to the "very good" category, I probably would have pulled the trigger. But then with my luck, a Fleming sear would pop up available for between $19k-22.5 k and I would have been kicking myself for a long time by missing it. |
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I know, I know. If it was steel, I would have done it at $20k. And I know aluminum v steel isn't a big deal. I just really, really, really want an HK sear and I would be kicking myself if the right deal comes along for one and I miss it because the money is tied up in something else. I was really on the fence with that dias. I too thought it was a good deal at $20; it's a very good deal at 18.5. It's a very good deal at $20k for a steel one; it's a fantastic deal for a steel one at 18.5. If I could have gotten to the "very good" category, I probably would have pulled the trigger. But then with my luck, a Fleming sear would pop up available for between $19k-22.5 k and I would have been kicking myself for a long time by missing it. Quoted:
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Someone pulled the buy it now trigger quick on that dias I spoke to him on the phone on the 10th, he said he would sell it to me for $18,500 and end the auction. And did you do it? Because if I could have gotten that price guaranteed, I would have. I just was iffy on the 20k I'll be punching myself for not calling if you snagged it for 18.5 Even at $20k it was a pretty good deal. I sold one of mine for $25k, and that was to a friend. I bet I could have gotten more if I'd listed it. There was one just listed for $29k. I know, I know. If it was steel, I would have done it at $20k. And I know aluminum v steel isn't a big deal. I just really, really, really want an HK sear and I would be kicking myself if the right deal comes along for one and I miss it because the money is tied up in something else. I was really on the fence with that dias. I too thought it was a good deal at $20; it's a very good deal at 18.5. It's a very good deal at $20k for a steel one; it's a fantastic deal for a steel one at 18.5. If I could have gotten to the "very good" category, I probably would have pulled the trigger. But then with my luck, a Fleming sear would pop up available for between $19k-22.5 k and I would have been kicking myself for a long time by missing it. Ah. Well don't kick yourself too much, you have something you want, and you are right, as soon as you bought the sear a HK would pop up. Like me, I've been looking for an AK for months, come across a good deal for an M16, buy it, week later a full stock AK went up on sturm for $15.5k.  
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http://www.davidspiwak.com/M16_(sn-X2930JFW).html
Not a bad deal. |
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