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Posted: 9/7/2010 4:35:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2010 4:35:55 PM EDT by Zhukov]
I found a local Colt AR15 SP1, however I was semi-shocked to find it had an auto sear hole in the lower, but the sear was removed.

Does this make it a machine gun? Or a registered lower receiver? Or does it mean nothing without the sear?

Thanks
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 2:23:08 PM EDT
once a machine gun ALWAYS a machine gun.





Link Posted: 9/7/2010 2:29:41 PM EDT
If he has papers to go with it I will give him 50 bucks for it......

Link Posted: 9/7/2010 2:30:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By VarmitSniper:
If he has papers to go with it I will give him 50 bucks for it......



No joke. Or even $55 for his time.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 2:38:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Brahmzy:
Originally Posted By VarmitSniper:
If he has papers to go with it I will give him 50 bucks for it......



No joke. Or even $55 for his time.


I'm sensing some sarcasm.


Serious question: If you put a RDIAS in a lower is that lower considered a MG?
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 2:39:07 PM EDT
He wants 1000 for it, which is obviously a joke since it may be a MG. Now what if he doesn't have the Form 1? Cause I don't believe he knows it's a machine gun.

Do you guys have any way to suggest asking him about it, without making him aware it could be worth upwards of 10-15k?
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 2:46:38 PM EDT
Extra hole in a non-machine gun is a major no-no...

- AG
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 2:49:50 PM EDT
You sure it's not a hole for a sear block pin that's been removed?
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 2:55:11 PM EDT
100% positive, it is clearly an auto sear hole.

So, IF he doesn't have papers, head for the hills?

Either way it doesn't have the auto sear, so would it be any good, is there any way to get an original auto sear?





He told me he bought it back in 1975 and is the original owner, only put 1000 rounds through it.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 2:55:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 2:56:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 3:03:41 PM EDT
So...if he DOES have papers, and for some unknown fact doesn't realize it's worth what it is and I get it.

Is it possible to get another stock auto sear?
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 3:09:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By unknownhavoc:
So...if he DOES have papers, and for some unknown fact doesn't realize it's worth what it is and I get it.

Is it possible to get another stock auto sear?
Getting a sear is not a problem, like $15. Getting a registered lower for less than $15k is the problem.

Isn't there a way to check the registry to see if it is in there?

Link Posted: 9/7/2010 3:09:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2010 3:10:05 PM EDT by Aggie_Gunner]
Originally Posted By unknownhavoc:
So...if he DOES have papers, and for some unknown fact doesn't realize it's worth what it is and I get it.

Is it possible to get another stock auto sear?


Yes. Several vendors sell M-16 LPKs or M-16 trips. It would not be difficult to locate one.

I give the chance that it is actually a registered lower that he "just doesn't realize what he has" about 0.0000001%... I'm feeling generous today.

- AG

Link Posted: 9/7/2010 3:09:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By unknownhavoc:
So...if he DOES have papers, and for some unknown fact doesn't realize it's worth what it is and I get it.

Is it possible to get another stock auto sear?


If it's a legit registered receiver then you will have to complete a Form 4 & associated tax stamp process & be approved before you can "get it." But yes, several vendors carry auto sears for registered receivers. Some may require that you show them a copy of your Form 4, however, before they will sell to you.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 3:12:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By warpig8654:
Originally Posted By unknownhavoc:
So...if he DOES have papers, and for some unknown fact doesn't realize it's worth what it is and I get it.

Is it possible to get another stock auto sear?


If it's a legit registered receiver then you will have to complete a Form 4 & associated tax stamp process & be approved before you can "get it." But yes, several vendors carry auto sears for registered receivers. Some may require that you show them a copy of your Form 4, however, before they will sell to you.



Yeah, I know the process of working through the NFA route, my first AR was an SBR . Okay, so does anyone have any suggestions about asking him about the papers, without clueing him in to it being worth 15 grand?
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 3:14:16 PM EDT


Isn't there a way to check the registry to see if it is in there?



Could I call the ATF and ask about the number, see if its on the books?
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 3:14:55 PM EDT
Yes you can order an entire FA lower parts kit including sear.

I'm no class 3 expert but the lower needs to be in the federal registry to be legit, then there is the whole issue of who legally possesses it as I would assume you could only accept a transfer from the registered owner.

It wouldn't be hard to take a semi lower, put in on the machine with the proper programming, and drill the auto sear hole so I'd be careful.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 3:25:18 PM EDT
Okay....so this just came to my mind, and I don't think it was addressed.


He said he bought this gun in 1975 and is the original owner.

Does this not mean he WON'T have a form 4, and WON'T have a tax stamp?
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 3:26:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jerz_subbie:
Originally Posted By Brahmzy:
Originally Posted By VarmitSniper:
If he has papers to go with it I will give him 50 bucks for it......



No joke. Or even $55 for his time.


I'm sensing some sarcasm.


Serious question: If you put a RDIAS in a lower is that lower considered a MG?


Depends. There are "married" sears and unmarried sears. A married sear is one where the rifle, with the sear, was registered as a machine gun as a unit. The sear and rifle together form the machine gun and the sear cannot be used in any other rifle.

With an unmarried RDIAS, the RDIAS itself is the "machine gun" and it can be used in any number of host weapons.

Obviously, an unmarried sear is preferable.

Now, IANAL, but an AR, with an unmarried sear installed, is only a machine gun so long as that sear is installed. The registered part is the sear.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 3:29:21 PM EDT
Thanks FredMan. That's what I thought but was unsure.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 3:32:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By unknownhavoc:
Okay....so this just came to my mind, and I don't think it was addressed.


He said he bought this gun in 1975 and is the original owner.

Does this not mean he WON'T have a form 4, and WON'T have a tax stamp?


You've needed a tax stamp for any NFA item since 1934.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 3:32:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2010 3:37:35 PM EDT by unknownhavoc]
Originally Posted By warpig8654:
Originally Posted By unknownhavoc:
Okay....so this just came to my mind, and I don't think it was addressed.


He said he bought this gun in 1975 and is the original owner.

Does this not mean he WON'T have a form 4, and WON'T have a tax stamp?


You've needed a tax stamp for any NFA item since 1934.




Okay thank you!

So I guess the next thing to ask him, is if he has the papers.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 4:01:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By unknownhavoc:
I found a local Colt AR15 SP1, however I was semi-shocked to find it had an auto sear hole in the lower, but the sear was removed.

Does this make it a machine gun? Or a registered lower receiver? Or does it mean nothing without the sear?

Thanks


unless its a registered machine gun ($8k +) DO NOT BUY it.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 4:04:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jerz_subbie:
Originally Posted By Brahmzy:
Originally Posted By VarmitSniper:
If he has papers to go with it I will give him 50 bucks for it......



No joke. Or even $55 for his time.


I'm sensing some sarcasm.


Serious question: If you put a RDIAS in a lower is that lower considered a MG?


the rdias is considered the machine gun, not the lower.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 4:06:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By unknownhavoc:
So...if he DOES have papers, and for some unknown fact doesn't realize it's worth what it is and I get it.

Is it possible to get another stock auto sear?


yep, bushmaster sells them for $35 or so. Its just a flat piece of metal, line a saw horse.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 4:09:52 PM EDT
No SP1 ever had a pinned-in sear block from the factory, so if it's got a through hole in the general area above the selector switch, then it's probably a contraband unregistered machinegun.

See the link for an illustration of the difference between an SP1 and an M16

http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/registeredreceiver.htm
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 4:19:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By unknownhavoc:
100% positive, it is clearly an auto sear hole.

So, IF he doesn't have papers, head for the hills?

Either way it doesn't have the auto sear, so would it be any good, is there any way to get an original auto sear?





He told me he bought it back in 1975 and is the original owner, only put 1000 rounds through it.


Are you sure it isn't an oversized pin (sear block?) that some older Colts had?
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 4:21:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Circuits:
No SP1 ever had a pinned-in sear block from the factory, so if it's got a through hole in the general area above the selector switch, then it's probably a contraband unregistered machinegun.

See the link for an illustration of the difference between an SP1 and an M16

http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/registeredreceiver.htm






Is there any way it could actually be a registered machine gun?
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 4:25:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2010 4:31:18 PM EDT by gmtmaster]
Find out if a Form 4 is available for the gun. If owner converted himself pre '86 then it will be on a Form 1. If it legally registered buy it or walk away. If not registered run away. Why two pages on this ? It's pretty straightforward.

This is not that big of a deal. It is legal or it is not. Who cares if it is blocked, not blocked, etc. Not relevant.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 4:29:36 PM EDT
Low post count
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 4:39:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2010 4:50:49 PM EDT by CONKLE73]
Originally Posted By unknownhavoc:
Originally Posted By Circuits:
No SP1 ever had a pinned-in sear block from the factory, so if it's got a through hole in the general area above the selector switch, then it's probably a contraband unregistered machinegun.

See the link for an illustration of the difference between an SP1 and an M16

http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/registeredreceiver.htm






Is there any way it could actually be a registered machine gun?


Yes… if he registered it prior to may 1986, but the chances of that are slim.

And let’s say it actually is a registered conversion on a form-1 or form-4…

As soon as you go to the class-3 dealer to do the transfer he is going to find out how much the guy is selling it for and out bid you right there on the spot…

Your dreams of buying a transferable AR 15 MG lower will come crashing down right before eyes like many pieces of broken glass…

It will be more tragic than when the guy on Deal or No Deal had the chance to take $750,000 and he said “no deal”… went for the million and wound up going home with $5.00…

Save yourself the heart ache and ensuing suicide watch and just forget all about the idea of a transferable AR15 MG for $1000.00

Lolololol…
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 5:06:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By unknownhavoc:
Originally Posted By warpig8654:
Originally Posted By unknownhavoc:
So...if he DOES have papers, and for some unknown fact doesn't realize it's worth what it is and I get it.

Is it possible to get another stock auto sear?


If it's a legit registered receiver then you will have to complete a Form 4 & associated tax stamp process & be approved before you can "get it." But yes, several vendors carry auto sears for registered receivers. Some may require that you show them a copy of your Form 4, however, before they will sell to you.



Yeah, I know the process of working through the NFA route, my first AR was an SBR . Okay, so does anyone have any suggestions about asking him about the papers, without clueing him in to it being worth 15 grand?


Cool. So you want to rip the guy off. Remind me to never deal with you. No wait. I'll remember it myself.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 5:09:28 PM EDT
My guess is that if it were a registered receiver, the auto sear would be installed in the receiver. If you go to all the trouble to register and pay the tax on the thing, why would you remove the auto sear?
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 5:29:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Stahlgewehr762:
My guess is that if it were a registered receiver, the auto sear would be installed in the receiver. If you go to all the trouble to register and pay the tax on the thing, why would you remove the auto sear?


Because the guy that owns it IS the ATF!
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 5:31:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By s72:
Low post count

Yes you do.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 5:34:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CONKLE73:
Originally Posted By unknownhavoc:
Originally Posted By Circuits:
No SP1 ever had a pinned-in sear block from the factory, so if it's got a through hole in the general area above the selector switch, then it's probably a contraband unregistered machinegun.

See the link for an illustration of the difference between an SP1 and an M16

http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/registeredreceiver.htm






Is there any way it could actually be a registered machine gun?


Yes… if he registered it prior to may 1986, but the chances of that are slim.

And let’s say it actually is a registered conversion on a form-1 or form-4…

As soon as you go to the class-3 dealer to do the transfer he is going to find out how much the guy is selling it for and out bid you right there on the spot…

Your dreams of buying a transferable AR 15 MG lower will come crashing down right before eyes like many pieces of broken glass…

It will be more tragic than when the guy on Deal or No Deal had the chance to take $750,000 and he said “no deal”… went for the million and wound up going home with $5.00…

Save yourself the heart ache and ensuing suicide watch and just forget all about the idea of a transferable AR15 MG for $1000.00

Lolololol…


Why would he go through a dealer? They more than likely live in the same state.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 6:03:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By carbine_red:
Originally Posted By CONKLE73:
Originally Posted By unknownhavoc:
Originally Posted By Circuits:
No SP1 ever had a pinned-in sear block from the factory, so if it's got a through hole in the general area above the selector switch, then it's probably a contraband unregistered machinegun.

See the link for an illustration of the difference between an SP1 and an M16

http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/registeredreceiver.htm






Is there any way it could actually be a registered machine gun?


Yes… if he registered it prior to may 1986, but the chances of that are slim.

And let’s say it actually is a registered conversion on a form-1 or form-4…

As soon as you go to the class-3 dealer to do the transfer he is going to find out how much the guy is selling it for and out bid you right there on the spot…

Your dreams of buying a transferable AR 15 MG lower will come crashing down right before eyes like many pieces of broken glass…

It will be more tragic than when the guy on Deal or No Deal had the chance to take $750,000 and he said “no deal”… went for the million and wound up going home with $5.00…

Save yourself the heart ache and ensuing suicide watch and just forget all about the idea of a transferable AR15 MG for $1000.00

Lolololol…


Why would he go through a dealer? They more than likely live in the same state.


Nope, ATF no longer allows too good to be true deals to transfer without a SOT.

It’s in the new rule book on page 87.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 6:03:42 PM EDT
If he bought it in 1975 and is the ORIGINAL OWNER, he KNOWS what it is (or was) already. Why not just ask him "hey, what's that hole for?" He'll either tell you that it WAS originally a MG (purchased as one) and for some reason he removed the sear, or play stupid and deny knowing why that empty hole was there when he bought it, tried to convert it, converted it and changed it back or some other weak-ass story.

If he knows he bought a new MG, then he knows what he's selling. No dealer in 1975 just decided to sell him a MG, without papers, just because he ran out of AR's. No need to go "WOWZERS! Do you know how much it's worth!!!!" He's set the price and knows what he's got, assuming he really is the original owner. That hole didn't just magically appear while sitting in his safe.

Link Posted: 9/9/2010 3:48:18 PM EDT
So I spent some time talking with him today, and he states he doesn't know what the hole is for. He told me he purchased the gun in 1978 (originally told me '75, now it's getting questionable...) He claims he never had an auto sear in it, unless it was set up that way when he purchased it new from the gun dealer. However he claims it never had an auto sear in it, but why would he have the hole at all then.... again...very questionable. I took a look into the receiver and found the inside machined down, maybe it had the hump, but something was cut out of it.

I asked again if he did any paperwork or anything when he originally bought it, he states he didn't do any paperwork, and doesn't have any forms from the ATF. So I don't really know what to think. I believe this guy IS NOT the original owner, as he would know what the hole was, and why the lower was machined. He told me he would do some research into it, again if he was the original owner why would he have to do research?

The situation doesn't sit well with me...
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 4:05:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By unknownhavoc:

The situation doesn't sit well with me...

sever contact with the seller


Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:08:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2010 6:08:50 PM EDT by tony_k]
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:43:37 PM EDT
Why bother with it anymore something is not right. Tell him thanks for his time and you are not interested.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 7:26:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2010 7:36:11 PM EDT by Dano523]
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 7:37:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2010 7:38:26 PM EDT by tony_k]
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:51:53 AM EDT
If you REALLY want it. Buy a legit reciever, then buy it for 1K. Then take off the reciever with the hole in it and take the parts out and get rid of it as fast as you can. Hammer it, bury it, cut it up. Then install the new reciever on the parts. Otherwise, don't even act like you know the guy. Unless you want a long vacation at taxpayer expense.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 7:05:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By unknownhavoc:
However he claims it never had an auto sear in it, but why would he have the hole at all then.... again...very questionable. I took a look into the receiver and found the inside machined down, maybe it had the hump, but something was cut out of it.
I asked again if he did any paperwork or anything when he originally bought it, he states he didn't do any paperwork, and doesn't have any forms from the ATF.

The situation doesn't sit well with me...


Trust your intuition, run. Machining out the receiver on your own is a bad sign.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 10:01:53 AM EDT
Nope, ATF no longer allows too good to be true deals to transfer without a SOT.

It’s in the new rule book on page 87.

I assume this is a joke, correct? In state, you are still allowed to do a Form 4 individual to individual ?
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 10:45:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By cmeyer001:
Nope, ATF no longer allows too good to be true deals to transfer without a SOT.

It’s in the new rule book on page 87.

I assume this is a joke, correct? In state, you are still allowed to do a Form 4 individual to individual ?


Yes it's a joke you can still form 4 to form 4 transfers in the same state.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 7:12:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 7:43:11 PM EDT by slt223]
edited for decency, this is in response to damcv62's post...which is one of the most retarded things I've ever read in my life.

Link Posted: 9/11/2010 7:24:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By slt223:
edited for decency, this is in response to damcv62's post...which is one of the most retarded things I've ever read in my life.





Do you have no standards to live by? If you had something that you didn't know was worth $15k, would you want a buyer to do the right thing and let you know its really worth $15k, or would you rather have them rob you blind? I, for one, don't like ripping people off. So you do? Its one thing to get a good deal. Its another to try and figure out a way to find out if an item is worth $15k with out letting the owner find out. I've gotten a number of good deals over the years by informing the owners that they are way under priced on stuff. I'd say more often then not, they offer me a better deal on it once they know I'm upfront with them about what they have. Some people have morals. If you don't, that is your problem.
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