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Posted: 4/4/2010 5:52:39 PM EDT
I am currently looking at a Sendra conversion RR and was wandering what you guys think about it.
I have been doing a lot of research and can not seem to find a whole lot about them. Is this a cast receiver? Any help would be great. Thanks |
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No its not a cast receiver. Its forged most likely and Sendra was 2nd only to Colt guns back in the day. They were top grade receivers and ussualy great conversions.
I bought my Sendra RR about a year ago and I LOVE it. Good quality and its also of Mil spec too so all my varous uppers attach with no problems. Mine runs like a champ. Mine was converted by bushmaster back in the day. That Sendra looks to be in great shape. I love mine and everyone else I have spoke with here that has Sendras (yes there are plenty of them) have had nothing but positive things to say about them. I say go for it. Rob |
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I would probably have lot of questions about it.
Parts kit looks old style. Appears to be a plastic mag catch button too. Why does the roll pin at the trigger guard on one side look filled in around the pin? There a few other things I would ask about the lower also. |
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I am not to worried about the parts inside. If I were to purchase the RR I would swap out all of the internals with brand new Colt parts.
I didnt notice the trigger guard. I will have to ask the seller about it. Does anyone know who did the conversion? I know that the Bushmaster conversions have "BFI" on the magwell and this one does not have it. Edit: I forgot. The seller stated that the RR is coated and not anodized. I believe that is why the pin hole looks to be filled it. I would probably have the finish stripped and have US Anodizing refinish it with fresh anodizing. |
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The paper work should show who did the conversion I would ask.
Just curious but did they mention why the markings on the mag well appear to be lowered some below the top level of the forging? Some things I might would look at would be the edges of the buffer to see if it was beating the retaining pin. I would check the function of the rear takedown pin also. It is hard to see the condition of the hammer and trigger pin holes with the KNS pins installed. Also I would check inside the lower at the selector detent area to make sure it was not damaged from improper removal of the selector. I bought a lower once someone had busted it out inside driving the selector out incorrectly. |
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I have some questions about it.
So is the Sendra the Manufacture of the Reciever or the MG(drilled the hole)? Asking because I don't see any other markings besides Sendra markings. It looks like an A2 Style receiver, with re-enforcements? Well I think that's what I saw before the pics were blocked. |
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Quoted:
I have some questions about it. So is the Sendra the Manufacture of the Reciever or the MG(drilled the hole)? Asking because I don't see any other markings besides Sendra markings. It looks like an A2 Style receiver, with re-enforcements? Well I think that's what I saw before the pics were blocked. I've got a sendra. That one looks pretty good. As far as the markings for who did the conversion, mine is marked under the grip. OP-I'd ask for some more info on the gun. The roll pin, also why the markings on the magwell look lower then the rest of the gun(did they duracoat it or something and just put something over the markings on the magwell???) and I'd also ask for a copy of the paper work for the gun, then you can tell who did the conversion. I'd ask to see the markings from who ever did it, I'd put money on the markings being under then grip. |
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I'd be concerned about that receiver, as it's an "A2" spec receiver at the front pivot pin, and all the Sendra lowers I've ever seen were A1 style.
The markings on the magwell also don't match any Sendra that I've ever seen. It's possible there were some differences, but I own a Sendra serial 090xx that does NOT look like that receiver. What are the odds that Sendra was making partial-A2 spec receivers around serial 0370x, and had switched "back" to A1 spec by the time they got to serial 090xx? For some reason the pic won't hotlink for me - but here's a view of my Sendra http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=97991592&albumID=1721241&imageID=37070778 |
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Humm. Thanks for the help so far. What is the difference between A1 and A2? Some noticible differences are the A2 has a re-enforced for the front pivot pin location. 2nd it's more re-enforced around the buffer tube area into the main receiver. Think SP1 style vs current AR15 receivers. For example you can tell a re-manufactured Olympic Arms, because all of the Transferable MG's where the old A1 style receivers. That's why I asked about the A2 style in my first post, because it could be a re-manufactured receiver. Edit: Can't get the pictures to come up here, but I'm sure it explains a lot more in detail http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=294264&page=1 |
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Shermantor-AR15
Thanks for the link. That explains everything. I am waiting for a response about the manufacturer from the seller. When he replies I will ask if it is a manufactured lower. It looks like it is. IIRC - Were people allowed to manufacturer a lower up until a few years ago when the ATF put an end to it? |
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sendra=nesard=drasen Mr. Bartlett told me that another one of the vendors of supplies to Howell, Nesard Gun Parts Co., 27 West 990 Industrial Road, Barrington, Illinois, has also been the subject of an ATF investigation. Officer of that company, Gerald Grayson, Cynthia Aleo, and Anthony Aleo all plead guilty to ATF charges. The Nesard Company which owned Sendra Corporation was shipping AR-15 receivers through the Sendra Corporation, along with part kits from the Nesard Company. When these parts are assembled it resulted in the manufacture of a short barreled rifle. Even though the above subjects are convicted felons they continue to conduct business because the Nesard Gun Parts Co. distributes gun parts and not firearms Tony Aleo now runs M&A Cynthia runs Model1 Cite as U.S. v. Drasen, 665 F.Supp. 598 (N.D.Ill.1987), rev'd in |
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this is certainly some good discussion going on here.
Tony K where are you? Need you to chime in here. My Sendra was converted by BFI and mine is in MIL spec as well and accepts anything I put on it. A1 or A2 lowers and any of the MIL spec parts. As you stated about yours..... mine was also only coated and never anodized and if you recall my posts on this site back in the winter I decided to send mine out to US Anodizing and have it anodized. That was the best 150 I ever spent. It made my Sendra look and feel like a brand new weapon. Plus they put the black MIL Spec typle III anodizer on it so it added a level of protection that in my opinion every RR should have especially when you pay 9K for it. I also as you stated swapped out all the fire control parts and put brand new parts and springs in. I cant commment on the Sendra conversions as my Sendra was done by BFI but I can comment that all the Sendras I have seen are very good RRs and top notch quality. I think this thread generates some good questions though. Rob |
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Quoted:
Shermantor-AR15 Thanks for the link. That explains everything. I am waiting for a response about the manufacturer from the seller. When he replies I will ask if it is a manufactured lower. It looks like it is. IIRC - Were people allowed to manufacturer a lower up until a few years ago when the ATF put an end to it? Not "people" but the oringinal mfg were some times willing to replace the reciever with a new one with the same s/n. Olympic is the ones that did a number of these. I got my first in 2006, and even then people where saying to get an oly because if the lower ever had a KB, they could replace it. FWIW, I've never heard of any others replacing an old RR with a new one with the same s/n. I didn't know sendra was still in business, I see how the names changed, and maybe that is why in that court doc it says he had illegal MG's. Maybe he was making new lowers with old s/n's for people. I don't know about that story, but I guess that would make some sense. I don't know when ATF put a stop to the likes of oly redoing the lowers, but I'd be worried about them saying it was a post sample. I'd likely not spend my money on one for that reason. ATF has a habit of saying something is kosher, then coming back years later and changing their mind. I've also never heard of sendra doing the conversions, I've only ever heard of others doing it on their lowers. Again, maybe they did. Maybe tony_k knows. |
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http://www.ll.georgetown.edu/federal/judicial/dc/opinions/95opinions/95-5307a.html
The front magwell is something I would ask about. |
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Wow. I had heard there were a number of guns that got taken out because the ATF deemed them to not be in a stage that they coud be deemed as an MG, but damn, if they had over a year before the ATF came around to check, how could they have not gotten them done? I'd have been working day and night milling out lowers and sten tubes. And that sucks that the ATF deemed because an employee said the STEN tubes where for a semi, not an MG, that its what they based it on. 3,119 guns. Damn.
And OP, here is where mine is marked, ask him for photos so you can tell if it was converted by someone other then sendra: 
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I got a response from the seller
I really don't know what to tell you? All Sendra....
The recess on the magwell may imply that it was a gun of a different manufacture at one point and Sendra machined the info off? Maybe it was done for aesthetics? All I can say is that at some point before 1986 someone at Sendra converted this receiver to a legal, transferable machine gun. The only thing that leads me to believe Sendra did not manufacture it originally as a MG is the auto stamp is of a different type, or they did it later on different machinery. I bought in 2003 from urban-armory.com. I wanted a m16 and didn't want to pay the price for a colt as most don't. On subguns.com there was 2 Sendra's that sold recently, maybe you can get them to send you a photo of their's or you can ask them if it was converted by Sendra or someone else? I am confused as to whether you are concerned about legality or authenticity? Because it is a registered machine gun on a ATF form 4, which means it's in their database and it was at least approved for me and the guy who owned it before urban armory got it. Authenticity- it's not a colt so it will never matter, that's why they are thousands of dollars less.... He sent two pics of the pistol grip area, but there were no markings. As stated above, he said that he was purchased from urban-armory.com. I am still on the fence about it. The seller said that he would take more pics if they are needed. |
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Quoted:
I thought sendra was only ever parts vendor and only one of the few pre 1986 AR lower suppliers... the lower was prolly remanufactured to reflect its new MG status & got a new serial number by the maker.
Not legal for a C2 to remove existing serial and restamp with a new one, at least not since 1968. They can ADD another number of their own, but not remove the existing serial, if working with an already-serialized firearm receiver. The font, size and letter placement of the rollmarks do match other Sendra receivers I have or have seen, so for whatever reason, Sendra is most likely the one who milled that area and restamped. Perhaps the first stamping was incomplete and it was corrected while the receiver was still on the production line..? As for the arched front pivot pin area... it's not what I'm used to seeing on early receivers, but I guess it's not entirely dissimilar from some of the early Armalite Model 02 pictures I've seen. Even if Sendra didn't make complete rifles, they could easily have done some factory RR's - as an M16 lower with the sear hole is considered a machinegun even without the upper, or any internal parts installed. |
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Just for the record ... ATF's stance, and I believe the court's stance would be as well if ever challenged, is that when 922(o) was passed, it froze the MGs on the NFA Registry to those which existed prior to May 19, 1986.
It didn't just freeze the paperwork: It meant that the exact guns are the only ones which are pre-1986. Examples from ATF rulings: ––A registered-receiver AR15 which was converted by installing an unserialed DIAS cannot now be drilled for the autosear pin. It is limited to its present configuration. ––A registered-receiver Uzi with an intact blocking bar cannot have the bar removed now (so that it can use other SMG bolts). It is limited to its present configuration. ––A registered-receiver HK cannot be drilled to accept swing-down packs. It is limited to its present configuration. So if a known, existing transferable MG cannot be modified in as simple a way as drilling one hole or removing a bar, IMHO it cannot be legal to replace the entire receiver. That flies in the face of logic, and will never pass a court test. Now ... Yes, both Colt and Olympic have in the past replaced receivers. ATF told them to stop. This was not based on any new legislation –– it was just ATF finding out what those manufacturers were doing, and told them to stop. This may place all the "remanufactured" transferables in legal limbo. ATF knows where most of them are, since both Colt and Oly required Form 5's to return them for replacement. Federal courts have also ruled that ATF has no legal power to "grandfather" anything; if they rule an item is contraband, all identical items are contraband. It doesn't mean ATF will immediately, or even ever, go after those guns. It just means that they may be vulnerable if ATF ever decides to do so. The owners' only financial recourse would be to sue the manufacturer who improperly replaced the receiver. Thus, I shy away from "remanufactured" transferables. As always, Your Mileage May Vary. |
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the original serial and markings on that reciever were milled off (thus the step-down), and it was re-marked. now, that doesn't necessarily make it illegal. you have no way of knowing when that took place. the original reciever fresh-off the tooling back in the 80's could have had a bad/incorrect marking, and sendra milled and re-stamped right then and there. remarking by milling and re-stamping isn't uncommon (the military does it all the time), but i understand why it would raise some eyebrows when you start talking about transferables. |
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Quoted:
I got a response from the seller I really don't know what to tell you? All Sendra....
The recess on the magwell may imply that it was a gun of a different manufacture at one point and Sendra machined the info off? Maybe it was done for aesthetics? All I can say is that at some point before 1986 someone at Sendra converted this receiver to a legal, transferable machine gun. The only thing that leads me to believe Sendra did not manufacture it originally as a MG is the auto stamp is of a different type, or they did it later on different machinery. I bought in 2003 from urban-armory.com. I wanted a m16 and didn't want to pay the price for a colt as most don't. On subguns.com there was 2 Sendra's that sold recently, maybe you can get them to send you a photo of their's or you can ask them if it was converted by Sendra or someone else? I am confused as to whether you are concerned about legality or authenticity? Because it is a registered machine gun on a ATF form 4, which means it's in their database and it was at least approved for me and the guy who owned it before urban armory got it. Authenticity- it's not a colt so it will never matter, that's why they are thousands of dollars less.... He sent two pics of the pistol grip area, but there were no markings. As stated above, he said that he was purchased from urban-armory.com. I am still on the fence about it. The seller said that he would take more pics if they are needed. That is piss poor reasoning from the seller. Just being honest. Just because a gun has transferred from one person to another, doesn't mean it would pass an ATF check on if it was really the gun that was registered in 1986. Not saying this isn't the case, but there are alot of factors that make you go 
I've shown this photos before, this is a sendra that came threw the local shop. Sure, it transfered fine, sure, the paperwork matched what the guns s/n is, but you can't tell me with a stright face this is kosher. 
Somethings aren't worth touching with a 10 foot stick. I know the one you are looking at doesn't compare to this one, but some of the stuff just doesn't add up. I'd point that out to the seller. ATF doesn't check the weapons, they just check the history of the transfers that the gun has gone threw. Would you be willing to submit that to the ATF for a compliance check if you were ever asked too? 
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Thanks for all of the help.
I think I am going to pass on this RR and either look for another conversion or save up some more and try to get a Colt. I have been keeping my eye out in the EE, subguns, sturm, gunbroker, etc and it seems like I might be able to get a Colt in the $12-14K range. If anyone knows of a good deal for a Colt let me know. 
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