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Posted: 7/21/2010 7:23:00 AM EDT
What is the best under $4,000 FA transferable sub gun? I'm talking reliability, repair, access to parts. There aren't a lot to choose from, but it looks like:

Macs
Stemple 45
MK 760
Sten
Reising 50
Spitfire

Macs are the cheapest, but they sure are bullet hoses. Don't they have a 1,200 rpm fire rate?
I've heard Uzis are great guns, but I don't think they can be found for 4 grand.
Anyone have hands-on experience with these guns?
Link Posted: 7/21/2010 7:25:01 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/21/2010 7:33:02 AM EDT
More specifically, get an M11/9 (rather than a MAC 10) and a Lage MAX-11 upper:



Link Posted: 7/21/2010 7:40:12 AM EDT
sweet mac
Link Posted: 7/21/2010 7:43:00 AM EDT
Max-11
Link Posted: 7/21/2010 8:03:28 AM EDT
M10/45. Most cost-effective choice. Two-minute conversion to 9mm, add a Lage upper in either caliber and you've got a REALLY sweet subgun! The 9mm mags are expensive, but you can convert Swedish K 36rd mags if you have a Dremel.

The heavier M10 is more robust than the M11, and has a thicker barrel. Accessories are still pretty abundant.
Link Posted: 7/21/2010 1:40:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By osprey21:
MAC with a LAGE slow-fire kit.


Yep. This can't be beat for that kind of money.
Link Posted: 7/21/2010 6:06:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By vanvideo:
I've heard Uzis are great guns, but I don't think they can be found for 4 grand.

Originally Posted By osprey21:
MAC with a LAGE slow-fire kit.


Actually, I thought an M11 with a Lage upper feels a lot like an Uzi.

Your other option is to do a TASK-style slowfire conversion, which I feel is much smoother. But the Lage is more of a plug-'n-play, and I would have probably gone that route if it was around when I was setting up my M11.
Link Posted: 7/21/2010 6:20:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/21/2010 6:50:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bigbore:
Originally Posted By vanvideo:
I've heard Uzis are great guns, but I don't think they can be found for 4 grand.


Save up for the UZI. After you put all the $$$ into the accessories for the MAC, you'll have spent just as much.

Registered bolt UZIs can be found for around $5K, and I've been seeing RRa sell for under 6K. The UZI as it is is much better. Better/less expensive/easy to find magazines. Better quality parts inside, and its an UZI


Where would you suggest looking for FA Uzi's and other FA stuff...Links etc.
Link Posted: 7/21/2010 10:07:59 PM EDT
I recommend NOT to get a MAC10 (45 or 9) if you want to add a Lage upper - the bolt travel on the MAX-10 is shorter and so the bolt hits the back of the receiver each shot, making for a much less smooth shooting gun compared with the MAX-11 built on the M11/9 platform (which will not hit the receiver due to the longer bolt travel).

If you can indeed bust your $4K budget and get nearer $6K, then an Uzi may indeed be a better choice. The magazines are better and a lot less hassle to load and make run 100% (MAC magazines can be troublesome). On the other hand, if you want to add optics, the MAX-11 platform is superior as it has a full-length Picatinny rail (you would have to add an after market optic rail to your Uzi). Also, research the particular Uzi you are buying, as they are all conversions from semi-auto guns, and they are not all equal... I have seen Uzis have their share of reliability issues.
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 3:51:33 AM EDT
So, no love for the classic sub guns? The Sten, MK760, Stemple, Reising? I've seen some of these as low as $3,000.
Also, I understand it's best to modify an M11/9 to accept Sten mags.
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 5:31:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 6:00:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/22/2010 6:21:56 AM EDT by gunguy45]
Originally Posted By vanvideo:
So, no love for the classic sub guns? The Sten, MK760, Stemple, Reising? I've seen some of these as low as $3,000.
Also, I understand it's best to modify an M11/9 to accept Sten mags.


I've got 2 on your list, an M50 Reising, and an M76/45 Stemple(early one).

Both have had their issues, but run near 100% now.

I love the Reising, but you need to find out what spare parts to keep on hand.
The Stemple is fun, but really crude fun.
you asked for reliability, they just aren't in the Mac neighborhood there.

I happen to like "old school" guns, so that's why I don't have a Mac, or Uzi. The Stemple is as close as I'll ever get to a Grease Gun.

Reising Mags run from $75.00 to $125.00
Early Stemples need Grease Gun mags to be modified, not hard, but a pain, later ones use standard GG mags.

edit to add mag issues.

Link Posted: 7/22/2010 6:12:26 AM EDT
Ignore the naysayers

Link Posted: 7/22/2010 10:33:09 AM EDT
If in the market for a FA wepaon...and the FA is on a Form 4 in another state and i am in Texas how doe's it transfer? I guess its best if a dealer has it on a Form 3 when ya buy a FA?
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 10:48:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By texjames:
If in the market for a FA wepaon...and the FA is on a Form 4 in another state and i am in Texas how doe's it transfer? I guess its best if a dealer has it on a Form 3 when ya buy a FA?

My boss just did this, in fact today, a MG and a suppressor both on F4 from an individule, 2 stamps to our dealer and 2 stamps to him when approved, I purchased the same set up last month from a dealer on a F3, it should arrive here tomorrow, 2 stamps when I get approved.
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 12:05:10 PM EDT
I agree, ignore the naysayers. The M10 with Lage upper doesn't hit the back of the receiver on my M10/45. It's the smoothest .45 subgun I've shot. Teh only weak point is teh trigger on all MACs really suck. A little polishing helps a lot.

The MK760 I had was very finicky about mags. It has a pretty high cyclic rate, which is fun, but not good for competition or accuracy. Parts are expensive and hard to find.

I am very biased in favor of the STEn. It has horrible sights, but very little else negative. They are easy to shoot well, the trigger is surprisingly good, they are very reliable with good mags, parts and mags are very inexpensive, and they break down into a nice small package.

The Reising is a great choice if you want a C&R. They are accurate, have good triggers, smooth (but high) cyclic rate, and are pretty reliable if kept clean. Drawbacks are cost of spare parts and magazines, complicated cleaning procedure with lots of small parts, and the high cyclic rate.

If you can spring the extra cash for an Uzi, go for it. You will NOT regret it! Parts and magazines are very inexpensive, durability and reliability as as high as anything else made, many accessories are available, and they are very competitive in matches.

I have not owned a Stemple or Spitfire, but have fired them. The Stemple is very crude. Newer ones have had the bugs worked out and seem to run well. Shoot one and see if you like it. There are some interesting accessories available including a 9mm conversion, I believe. The Spitfire uses Grease Gun mags and most use an M3A1 bolt. Nice, slow rate of fire and good handling. Construction quality is a bit shoddy and forward grips come loose.
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 7:02:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 1gewehr:
The Spitfire uses Grease Gun mags and most use an M3A1 bolt. Nice, slow rate of fire and good handling. Construction quality is a bit shoddy and forward grips come loose.


Spitfire do NOT use the M3A1 bolt, it's a Spitfire bolt. The greaser bolt can be modified to fit and some internals have to be replaced as the bolt rods are in a different location.

And since I owned/have owned every subgun mentioned in this thread, I would go with the M10/45 suggestion as it's more fun and flexible. The Uzi is nice, especially with a .45 conversion but it gets boring real fast compared to a MAC anything. The Stemple is really for the DIY tinker type. The Spitfire is a hit or miss; especially if you gun needs the feedramp and it's not there.
Link Posted: 7/23/2010 12:23:09 AM EDT
I was in the same boat as you.


Buy Ammo, go to a MG Shoot, and make some friends.

The M-11 w/Lage is Funnn. ROF was 650?

I shot a Mini Uzi I think the ROF was a little high 1,100.

The Resising was real fun too. ROF 6-700. But with $85 mags and spare parts hard to get. This might be a deal breaker, Unless it was running 100% and cheap.

This will get pricy.

This is what I would do:

M10-9 $3000
Lage double feed upper $750
Uzi conversion $325
50 Uzi mags $300
Gem Tech Viper can $695
2 taxes $400
2 transfers $120

You are set and ready to roll

$5590



Or you can do the Reising For
$3500
10 mags $850
tax $200
transfer $60


And be done

$4610




Link Posted: 7/23/2010 2:10:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/23/2010 2:12:17 AM EDT by StealthyBlagga]
Do not get an M11/9 converted for STEn mags - the mags are a PITA to load and very hit-or-miss on quality, and they are not as cheap as they used to be. You can get Recon Ordnance mags for the standard M11/9 and, with a bit of tweaking, they will run well for (are built like a tank). Like I said earlier, if you want a gun that will have completely trouble-free magazines, get an UZI.

One other reason I like the M11/9 is that Richard Lage is always innovating for this platform. I have seen a new prototype he is working on for an upper that will use Suomi 72-round drum mags. Unlike the old Stoney Creek abortion, this upper works 100% and is very well designed/built. When it comes out I will be all over it.
Link Posted: 7/23/2010 6:05:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Hail Mary:
Spitfire do NOT use the M3A1 bolt, it's a Spitfire bolt. The greaser bolt can be modified to fit and some internals have to be replaced as the bolt rods are in a different location.


I learn something every day! It sure looks like a Grease Gun bolt! Thanks for setting me straight.

Link Posted: 7/23/2010 9:03:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By vanvideo:
So, no love for the classic sub guns? The Sten, MK760, Stemple, Reising? I've seen some of these as low as $3,000.
Also, I understand it's best to modify an M11/9 to accept Sten mags.


I have a Max-11, but I really wanted a Sterling. The are supposed to be the Cadillac of 'real' subguns. The problem is that I am a lefty, and they are pretty much a right handed gun.
Link Posted: 7/26/2010 9:01:48 AM EDT
If you do a bit of shopping you can get into the M11/9mm and a Lage upper for under $4K. I did.
Link Posted: 7/30/2010 11:33:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Chas8008:
This is what I would do:

M10-9 $3000
Lage double feed upper $750
Uzi conversion $325
50 Uzi mags $300


Agreed


Link Posted: 8/2/2010 5:49:27 AM EDT
Or you can get a MAC10/9 and get the .22lr conversion from Practical Solutions and shoot .22lr FA all day long for pennies. That's what I did, runs like a champ and I'm saving $$$$ on ammo like you wouldn't believe. Good luck.
Link Posted: 8/2/2010 6:20:24 AM EDT
Richard Lage has also been shipping .22LR kits for the M11 and MAX-11.

MAX-11:


Function testing modified PAM-2 mags.
http://s79.photobucket.com/albums/j150/RictusGrin_2006/?action=view&current=RG-SMG1.mp4
Link Posted: 9/3/2010 12:15:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2010 5:12:42 AM EDT by Chas8008]
Originally Posted By MgA_ODEN:
Originally Posted By Chas8008:
This is what I would do:

M10-9 $3000
Lage double feed upper $750
Uzi conversion $325
50 Uzi mags $300


Agreed

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/1096/bestofboth.jpg


can you get a 22 kit for the UZI converted M10/9s?
Link Posted: 9/3/2010 4:39:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/3/2010 4:55:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2010 5:13:28 AM EDT by Chas8008]
Link Posted: 9/3/2010 4:58:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2010 4:58:32 AM EDT by bigbore]
Link Posted: 9/3/2010 3:04:35 PM EDT
I have friends with Macs and Uzis, and I have a Reising. I'd take a Reising over a Mac any day (and so would my friend who has a Mac!), but I'd trade my Reising towards an Uzi if funds permitted.

I was somewhat concerned about the Reising after reading about reliability problems. I got it in the mail (C&R, so Dave the Mailman dropped it off at my house) two days before a scheduled trip to an MG shoot. I stopped by the club and shot a few hundred rounds of cast bullet reloads to test it out without any issues.

The day of the shoot, everyone there wanted to try it out. I went through a little under 2000 rounds of cast bullet reloads and another 1000 rounds of WWB 230gr ball. I had one malfunction that day, with no cleaning. Just a little Remoil on the bolt every three or four mags.

Two range trips later, I broke the firing pin, which I understand is common. I bought one of Ken Christie's titanium pins and began experiencing light primer strikes. A Wolf extra power hammer spring solved that issue completely, and my Reising has been 100% reliable since then, which has been about a year.

The .45acp Mac just fires too damn fast to be enjoyable for me. I'm not into the whole bullet hose thing, but some like it.
Link Posted: 9/3/2010 4:36:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hawgleg44:
I have friends with Macs and Uzis, and I have a Reising. I'd take a Reising over a Mac any day (and so would my friend who has a Mac!), but I'd trade my Reising towards an Uzi if funds permitted.

I was somewhat concerned about the Reising after reading about reliability problems. I got it in the mail (C&R, so Dave the Mailman dropped it off at my house) two days before a scheduled trip to an MG shoot. I stopped by the club and shot a few hundred rounds of cast bullet reloads to test it out without any issues.

The day of the shoot, everyone there wanted to try it out. I went through a little under 2000 rounds of cast bullet reloads and another 1000 rounds of WWB 230gr ball. I had one malfunction that day, with no cleaning. Just a little Remoil on the bolt every three or four mags.

Two range trips later, I broke the firing pin, which I understand is common. I bought one of Ken Christie's titanium pins and began experiencing light primer strikes. A Wolf extra power hammer spring solved that issue completely, and my Reising has been 100% reliable since then, which has been about a year.

The .45acp Mac just fires too damn fast to be enjoyable for me. I'm not into the whole bullet hose thing, but some like it.


I will keep my M11/Nine mm, though I find it pointles to shoot with the stock upper. For less than $4K in gun, upper and mags I'm happy with it. 100% so far with various reloads and factory ammunition to the tune of 1K rounds or so.

First mag is WWB, second is Fiocchi 158 grain. The third mag is a mix of WWB and subsonic. Last two mags are subsonic handloads. Can is Evo-9 on a Triad 3-Lug mount.
http://s79.photobucket.com/albums/j150/RictusGrin_2006/?action=view¤t=SubSupp1a.mp4

Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:20:06 AM EDT
Save your pennies for a registered receiver Uzi.

Kharn
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:44:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Kharn:
Save your pennies for a registered receiver Uzi.

Kharn


can you slow down the ROF on a Full Size Uzi?

Link Posted: 9/5/2010 6:50:12 AM EDT
Just bought a sub $4K smg, a Wilson Sten MKII. For the money, I figured it could not be beat. I wanted to add something to my collection that had historical significance, and the Sten will fit the bill nicely. Already have an Fleming HK sear as well, so I wanted something open bolt.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 7:07:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2010 7:08:18 AM EDT by Kharn]
Originally Posted By Chas8008:
can you slow down the ROF on a Full Size Uzi?
An unmodified full-size Uzi runs 600rpm in 9mm (larger buffers will bump the RPM up), how much slower could you want?

Kharn
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 8:19:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Kharn:
Originally Posted By Chas8008:
can you slow down the ROF on a Full Size Uzi?
An unmodified full-size Uzi runs 600rpm in 9mm (larger buffers will bump the RPM up), how much slower could you want?

Kharn


I ran a mini Uzi and it was too fast for me. The owner said it ran 1,100
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 8:56:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 10:26:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Chas8008:
I ran a mini Uzi and it was too fast for me. The owner said it ran 1,100
A mini-Uzi's bolt stroke is about 2" shorter than a full-size's, thus the 1100 RPM.

Kharn
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 11:24:30 AM EDT
Full size Uzi's run a lot slower than the Mini's. I don't even enjoy shooting the Mini's. If I could slow down my Reising, I'd do it.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 2:24:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hawgleg44:
Full size Uzi's run a lot slower than the Mini's. I don't even enjoy shooting the Mini's. If I could slow down my Reising, I'd do it.


I belive you can.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 2:49:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Chas8008:
Originally Posted By Hawgleg44:
Full size Uzi's run a lot slower than the Mini's. I don't even enjoy shooting the Mini's. If I could slow down my Reising, I'd do it.


I belive you can.


Please tell me how.

Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:42:42 PM EDT
Buy a MAC 10, 45 , you can still get Grease gun mags cheap & it doesn't take much to make them work in the Mac.

I've had mine since the early 80's & just replaced the bbl. , after how many rounds ,I have no idea ,but it was a lot .

Mine just doesn't like the copper plated bullets . FMJ's run like a Swiss clock.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 7:38:28 PM EDT
I'd rather have an M11/9 because there are so many more accessories and conversions and compared to the price of .45ACP, it's Hella Cheaper to shoot....
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 9:55:08 AM EDT
Picked up a JAWS M10 in 45 locally with a JAC can
so price breakdown


m10 with can
$2750

transfers $400

Lage max10 upper with grip $1050

$4200 for a great fun shooting 45 subgun

Link Posted: 9/10/2010 9:57:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jimlostt:
Picked up a JAWS M10 in 45 locally with a JAC can
so price breakdown


m10 with can
$2750

transfers $400

Lage max10 upper with grip $1050

$4200 for a great fun shooting 45 subgun



pics or well you know
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 10:03:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Chas8008:
Originally Posted By jimlostt:
Picked up a JAWS M10 in 45 locally with a JAC can
so price breakdown


m10 with can
$2750

transfers $400

Lage max10 upper with grip $1050

$4200 for a great fun shooting 45 subgun



OK OK give me till the morning when I get home.


pics or well you know


OK OK give me till the morning when I get home.

Link Posted: 9/10/2010 10:06:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 10:10:05 AM EDT by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By vanvideo:
So, no love for the classic sub guns? The Sten, MK760, Stemple, Reising? I've seen some of these as low as $3,000.
Also, I understand it's best to modify an M11/9 to accept Sten mags.

I wouldn't say it's best to hack up your 11/9.... But people do it...

Companies do make new M11/9 mags - both steel & plastic....

I just kept mine stock...

And yes, another vote for the 11/9 + Lage upper.

Mr Lage also makes different stocks for the gun, from the HK-style sidefolder shown above, to the 'Uzi-style' collapsing-boot (that slides on rails like the original stock, but has a rubber/plastic 'boot' (think newer rifle-style) back end instead of wire....

I went with the boot, since I liked the compactness and the ability to use the original stock rails/controls....

As for caliber, 9mm is cheaper than .45, and even at the nice, slow 600-700RPM of a MAX (the Lage upper brings ROF down to about M16 speed) that does matter. .22 conversions are available for both, so that's a non-issue...

As for performance, you're going to find that 9mm performs better than .45 in every possible situation, once you start going to longer barrels, like those found in a 'large-sized' SMG.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 10:06:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jimlostt:
Originally Posted By Chas8008:
Originally Posted By jimlostt:
Picked up a JAWS M10 in 45 locally with a JAC can
so price breakdown


m10 with can
$2750

transfers $400

Lage max10 upper with grip $1050

$4200 for a great fun shooting 45 subgun



OK OK give me till the morning when I get home.


pics or well you know


OK OK give me till the morning when I get home.



see I just do not think you are ARFCOM enough. I mean if a had a subgun it would be with me for a solid week, Shit, shave, shower, sleep, eat, fuck jack off, it would be right there.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 10:10:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Chas8008:
Originally Posted By jimlostt:
Originally Posted By Chas8008:
Originally Posted By jimlostt:
Picked up a JAWS M10 in 45 locally with a JAC can
so price breakdown


m10 with can
$2750

transfers $400

Lage max10 upper with grip $1050

$4200 for a great fun shooting 45 subgun



OK OK give me till the morning when I get home.


pics or well you know


OK OK give me till the morning when I get home.



see I just do not think you are ARFCOM enough. I mean if a had a subgun it would be with me for a solid week, Shit, shave, shower, sleep, eat, fuck jack off, it would be right there.

Mine is on the other side of the country...

Damn state MG-ban bullshit...
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