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Posted: 3/2/2010 6:03:54 AM EDT
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If I purchase a SBR upper (or barrel) from BCM, do I still need to engrave the lower? I know I would need the requisite paperwork.
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See section 7.4 of the NFA Handbook
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-7.pdf That explains what has to be engraved and where it can go. Fox example: The serial number is required on the lower receiver (for an AR for example), but other info could be engraved on the upper receiver or barrel. Other than the serial number, you have some flexibility of where the other info is put. Most people in making their own SBR simply use the existing serial number that was already put on the receiver by the original maker. If you are going to have multiple uppers for your registered SBR that you made, I would recommend your name, city, state be put on the lower receiver instead of having to pay multiple times to have it put on multiple uppers. |
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IMHO you do not have engrave the lower. In reference to "h" on a Form1 (additional desciption- "include all numbers and other identifying data which will appear on the firearm") you do exactly that. Adding anything other than original markings is purely optional when building an SBR and if you do so you would add them here. In spot "a" (name & location of orig mfgr- receiver) goes the original info, not you.
I know the verabge is ambiguous and there seems to be some debate, but I have 5 SBRs, all registered this way. |
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I've specifically seen applications come back with the condition that the "full trust name be engraved". The condition was intended to clarify for the applicant that they cannot use trust abbreviations, but this clearly indicates that the ATF is expecting the "maker" to be engraved on the newly built SBR.
The GCA requires manufactures to engrave their name and location and the form 1 instructions do say to follow all other GCA requirements. I think that if it ever came up, the ATF would find your SBRs improperly marked. How serious is this, I don't know but I am just going to play it safe. I do know that you if ever need to transfer them, the manufacturer will be you and how exactly is the form 3/4 going to be filled out then? Your rifle will have markings not found anywhere on the form 3/4. |
| The chances of the ATF prosecuting you for failure to mark your receiver as the maker is pretty slim. However, the chances of them confiscating your receiver and engraving the information on there for you is there. Remember, it's not how *you* interpret their regulations; it's how *they* interpret their regulations. |
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IMHO you do not have engrave the lower. In reference to "h" on a Form1 (additional desciption- "include all numbers and other identifying data which will appear on the firearm") you do exactly that. Adding anything other than original markings is purely optional when building an SBR and if you do so you would add them here. In spot "a" (name & location of orig mfgr- receiver) goes the original info, not you. I know the verabge is ambiguous and there seems to be some debate, but I have 5 SBRs, all registered this way. 
i didn't put anything in the block "h" either on any of my Form 1's except for the GSG-5P which has importer markings, i still have to engrave the items because i am the new "maker". FROM THE NFA HANDBOOK CHAPTER 6. MAKING NFA FIREARMS BY NONLICENSEE
6.2.1 Description of firearm. If an existing firearm or firearm receiver is being used, the name and location of the original manufacturer of the weapon should be entered in Block 4(a). If the applicant is making a completely new firearm, the applicant’s name and location should be entered in Block 4(a). . . The serial number must be engraved or stamped on the receiver of the firearm and the caliber, model, and identification of the maker must be engraved on the barrel or frame or receiver of the weapon. The marking and identification requirements for a maker are the same as for a manufacturer. Refer to section 7.4 for a detailed discussion of the requirements. 7.4.2 Additional information. Certain additional information must also be conspicuously placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), that is, they must be placed in such a manner that they are wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes: (1) The model, if such designation has been made; (2) The caliber or gauge; (3) The manufacturer’s name (or recognized abbreviation); and (4) The city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where the manufacturer maintains its place of business. |
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IMHO you do not have engrave the lower. In reference to "h" on a Form1 (additional desciption- "include all numbers and other identifying data which will appear on the firearm") you do exactly that. Adding anything other than original markings is purely optional when building an SBR and if you do so you would add them here. In spot "a" (name & location of orig mfgr- receiver) goes the original info, not you. I know the verabge is ambiguous and there seems to be some debate, but I have 5 SBRs, all registered this way.
i didn't put anything in the block "h" either on any of my Form 1's except for the GSG-5P which has importer markings, i still have to engrave the items because i am the new "maker". FROM THE NFA HANDBOOK CHAPTER 6. MAKING NFA FIREARMS BY NONLICENSEE
6.2.1 Description of firearm. If an existing firearm or firearm receiver is being used, the name and location of the original manufacturer of the weapon should be entered in Block 4(a). If the applicant is making a completely new firearm, the applicant’s name and location should be entered in Block 4(a). . . The serial number must be engraved or stamped on the receiver of the firearm and the caliber, model, and identification of the maker must be engraved on the barrel or frame or receiver of the weapon. The marking and identification requirements for a maker are the same as for a manufacturer. Refer to section 7.4 for a detailed discussion of the requirements. 7.4.2 Additional information. Certain additional information must also be conspicuously placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), that is, they must be placed in such a manner that they are wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes: (1) The model, if such designation has been made; (2) The caliber or gauge; (3) The manufacturer’s name (or recognized abbreviation); and (4) The city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where the manufacturer maintains its place of business. Your cite does say barrel. |
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IMHO you do not have engrave the lower. In reference to "h" on a Form1 (additional desciption- "include all numbers and other identifying data which will appear on the firearm") you do exactly that. Adding anything other than original markings is purely optional when building an SBR and if you do so you would add them here. In spot "a" (name & location of orig mfgr- receiver) goes the original info, not you. I know the verabge is ambiguous and there seems to be some debate, but I have 5 SBRs, all registered this way.
i didn't put anything in the block "h" either on any of my Form 1's except for the GSG-5P which has importer markings, i still have to engrave the items because i am the new "maker". FROM THE NFA HANDBOOK CHAPTER 6. MAKING NFA FIREARMS BY NONLICENSEE
6.2.1 Description of firearm. If an existing firearm or firearm receiver is being used, the name and location of the original manufacturer of the weapon should be entered in Block 4(a). If the applicant is making a completely new firearm, the applicant’s name and location should be entered in Block 4(a). . . The serial number must be engraved or stamped on the receiver of the firearm and the caliber, model, and identification of the maker must be engraved on the barrel or frame or receiver of the weapon. The marking and identification requirements for a maker are the same as for a manufacturer. Refer to section 7.4 for a detailed discussion of the requirements. 7.4.2 Additional information. Certain additional information must also be conspicuously placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), that is, they must be placed in such a manner that they are wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes: (1) The model, if such designation has been made; (2) The caliber or gauge; (3) The manufacturer’s name (or recognized abbreviation); and (4) The city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where the manufacturer maintains its place of business. Your cite does say barrel. which doesn't change the fact that the ATF requires engraving when you MAKE a firearm... OP, you aren't purchasing an SBR unless it is a complete rifle from an FFL/SOT, it would be done on a Form 4, and would NOT require engraving. Purchasing a short barreled upper and installing it on a title 1 AR15 is considered "making", is done on a Form 1, and requires the engraving as specified in the NFA handbook. The process is nearly identical for the two and the price of the tax stamp is $200 for either. this argument comes up all the time, and there is always one in the bunch that has "found the loophole", but all they really did is out themselves as being non-compliant with the BATFE requirements specified in the NFA handbook and i believe the GCA. |
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Think of it this way (the way ATF and the courts look at it):
There are two classes of firearms in existence: –– Title 1 firearms, which are the normal rifles, shotguns, and handguns, as defined under federal law; and –– Title II firearms, which are governed by the National Firearms Act. This includes rifles and shotguns with dimensions shorter than the limits for Title 1 firearms as defined under federal law. You can make a Title II firearm from a Title 1 firearm by adding components that do not meet the minimums required by federal law for Title 1 firearms, or you can make a Title II firearm completely from scratch. Either way, the process is "making," and you become the maker of record. Thus, you must first file a Form 1 application to make the Title II firearm, and either way, you become the maker of record for that Title II firearm and must follow all the regulations imposed on makers of record. See the above-cited regulations –– it doesn't matter whether you built a gun from scratch or used finished components to assemble it, that act of assembly is considered the act of "making" by federal law, and you must comply with the regs imposed by fed law on the makers. |
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Jeeze, I thiought Tony's interpretation was good, but I contest the last line. I say the Form1 lists you as the "maker of record' at the top of the form, but unless you are building a firearm from absolute scratch you simply list the markings on the receiver as they appear in block H UNLESS you are adding new info in which case all info goes in block H, new and original.
After all, you are converting an existing firearm, NOT building one from scratch- both/either of which a Form 1 will allow you to do, hence the verbage. If I'm wrong why do they approve them?- and I'm not the only guy doing them this way. In the end it IS ambiguous to a degree. Worth noting is that if you engrave your lower it makes decommissioning a bit more....difficult. Also, the law allows you to put a 16"/+ upper on at any time and effectively "Un-SBR" it. If you engrave it....well, the law isn't any different, but try having your buddies explain that to the police while they were using a 16"/+ upper w/out your presence. I'm not saying that would ever happen/etc/etc. In my estimation engraving only complicates things. |
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Jeeze, I thiought Tony's interpretation was good, but I contest the last line. I say the Form1 lists you as the "maker of record' at the top of the form, but unless you are building a firearm from absolute scratch you simply list the markings on the receiver as they appear in block H UNLESS you are adding new info in which case all info goes in block H, new and original. After all, you are converting an existing firearm, NOT building one from scratch- both/either of which a Form 1 will allow you to do, hence the verbage. If I'm wrong why do they approve them?- and I'm not the only guy doing them this way. In the end it IS ambiguous to a degree. Worth noting is that if you engrave your lower it makes decommissioning a bit more....difficult. Also, the law allows you to put a 16"/+ upper on at any time and effectively "Un-SBR" it. If you engrave it....well, the law isn't any different, but try having your buddies explain that to the police while they were using a 16"/+ upper w/out your presence. I'm not saying that would ever happen/etc/etc. In my estimation engraving only complicates things. Well, sprguy, with all due respect .. you can do what you feel is legal, and I will do what I believe complies with federal law. You may believe the fed regs are ambiguous ... but I have been having to deal with them on a personal and professional level since the 1950s, and after five f'in decades I don't see any ambiguity. Instead, I see folks who try to dance around them and wind up in prison ... and folks who bend over backwards to comply with idiotic crap and stay free. If you want to do something that requires you to file a Form 1, "Application to Make and Register a Firearm", that means you become the maker of the firearm. And thus you are required to comply with the regs placed upon makers of firearms by federal law. But really, I don't care anymore. It's late at night, and I've done all I can do to offer what I know, based on my experience. The sun will come up tomorrow and it'll be another day. The folks who are legal can sleep well. Do what you think is legal. I wish y'all the best. After all, we are all on the same side, right? |
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Tony,
We are definately on the same side! FWIW; I consider you to be if not the best around here. You offer nothing but good advice, taking a great amount of your own time to do so- even when the same questions are asked time and again. I know; You've answered plenty for me & greatly appreciated. I'm just looking for discussion. I know you are the guru, but you unfortunately were not the guy who sold me my first C3 item/helped guide me through the process the first time. All went well, even had a personal talk w/examiner Frushour about a diff issue and nothing came up about the engraving or lack of. Thus I did the next 4 the same way. If I'm in error I certainly had no idea that was the case. In fairness, I think I started my first response w/ "IMHO", shoulda added "my 02c" as well perhaps, but that goes w/out saying. While perhaps incorrect, I do know that MANY an SBR has been made sans engraving, for better or for worse. Speaking of; Do you know of any instance where the ATF have come back and said a receiver had to be engraved after being done w/out? Thanks as Always! Josh |
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sprguy,
did you even read what was cited from the NFA handbook. if you are converting a title II firearm, you are to put the current manufacturer's info in block 4(a), but you still have to mark the item with your information. the BATFE has been very clear on this, whether you choose to follow this or not is up to you. i too have seen a number of Form 1'd SBR/SBS without engraving, but personally I would hate to be charged with some bullshit felony for not engraving my name/city on an SBR and in turn lose my security clearance and livelihood (not to mention my future gun rights) ... |
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Speaking of; Do you know of any instance where the ATF have come back and said a receiver had to be engraved after being done w/out? I've heard TonyK speak of two instances. One, they told the owner to engrave the receiver and show proof of the work later to them. The other time, they confiscated the receiver and marked it and then returned it. I am sure he'll be more than willing to fill in the details if you ask him. |
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While perhaps incorrect, I do know that MANY an SBR has been made sans engraving, for better or for worse. Speaking of; Do you know of any instance where the ATF have come back and said a receiver had to be engraved after being done w/out? Josh, first, my apology for the tone of my post above –– I'm frequently guilty of PWG (Posting While Grumpy), particularly after a long day. You're right, many NFA items have been made without the maker engraving them. I only know of two occasions where ATF noticed them –– both occurred when ATF agents were strolling the line at (different) MG shoots years ago; both were MGs that were Form 1'd back when you could. 
In one case, when ATF told the owner it needed to be engraved, he politely said he hadn't known that. They gave him a case number and an address, and told him to have it engraved within the next 90 days, and send photos of the finished engraving to them with a letter referencing the case number. He did so, and never heard anything again from ATF. In the other case, when ATF told the owner it needed to be engraved, he disputed it, claiming there was no such requirement, doing the "show me the regulation" act, etc. Rather than debate it, the ATF agents seized the MG, said they would engrave it, and gave him a receipt for it. They mailed it back to him six or eight months later, fixed. They had engraved his info freehand, with a vibrapen (this was before the current size/depth requirements), in the most conspicuous spot they could find. It was ugly ... but hey! It was free, right? And he only lost his MG for six or eight months. FWIW, the above two encounters happened many years ago. I do not know how ATF would respond today. HTH! |
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I do not know how ATF would respond today. confiscate your unmarked NFA item prosecute based on interpretations of law shoot your dog bankrupt you in court put you in jail melt your gun into a bedpan take turns using your "NFA" bedpan send pictures of the above to you in jail 
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I do not know how ATF would respond today. confiscate your unmarked NFA item prosecute based on interpretations of law shoot your dog bankrupt you in court put you in jail melt your gun into a bedpan take turns using your "NFA" bedpan send pictures of the above to you in jail
Who knows? I sure don't want to find out. For that matter, even in the best outcome in the kinder and gentler old days cited above, I would not to have an ATF investigation case number with my name and address next to it, sitting in a file somewhere. 
Your Mileage May Vary. |
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Tony, no apology needed, I respect your opinion- even if delivered in grouchy format.
Ouch, Wow, Ok & WTF....in no particular order! I had no idea this would be such a touchy subject. I have read the handbook, a few times. I find it ambiguous, what can I say, maybe I'm stupid. I have to posit the question; why were five Forms Ones approved by three different examiers w/such an egregious error? As well as at least 10 more thru three other arfcommers I know of personally. I find it odd at a minumim and it proves that NFA stuff can be a bit "grey", at least the interpretation of, by anybody short of a very accomplished lawyer. It no wonder the "newbies" have so many questions, from the outside looking in, it's pretty damn dark in here. Not trying to argue, but still open to feedback from anybody. I'm starting to feel like Bruce Willis in the Die Hard movie where he wears that "I hate N*****Rs sign in Harlem. |
| It's only a touchy subject because every other week, someone will post here saying that you don't need to engrave maker's info for a form 1. And thus, we do this rodeo all over again (and again and again and again, etc.). I'm not calling you out. It's just it happens so frequently that long-timers in the forum get grouchy. Also, receiving an approved form 1 (or 4 for that matter) may not be the blessing some people assume it is. ATF has been known to approve and then rescind the approval at a later date (several examples include accidentally approving a form 1 for a post-86 MG or approving the transfer of an item that has been manufactured from a previous transferable MG by cutting out the serial number and welding into a new one). And don't forget about the holy grail of mis-approvals, Akin's Accelerator. It's okay, eh, no it's not. Oops. If anything save your frustration and ire for the rat bastards that make us jump through all these loops just so we stay law abiding (no, I'm not talking about the folks at ATF, I'm talking about those Congresscritters that made this possible). |
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Tony, no apology needed, I respect your opinion- even if delivered in grouchy format. Ouch, Wow, Ok & WTF....in no particular order! I had no idea this would be such a touchy subject. I have read the handbook, a few times. I find it ambiguous, what can I say, maybe I'm stupid. I have to posit the question; why were five Forms Ones approved by three different examiers w/such an egregious error? As well as at least 10 more thru three other arfcommers I know of personally. I find it odd at a minumim and it proves that NFA stuff can be a bit "grey", at least the interpretation of, by anybody short of a very accomplished lawyer. It no wonder the "newbies" have so many questions, from the outside looking in, it's pretty damn dark in here. Not trying to argue, but still open to feedback from anybody. I'm starting to feel like Bruce Willis in the Die Hard movie where he wears that "I hate N*****Rs sign in Harlem. OK, this is long, but I hope it will help: sprguy, you are correct: The NFA process was intentionally made complicated and difficult, because Congress wanted would-be applicants to get discouraged and give up. Seriously. The National Firearms Act was created in 1934 after the then-Attorney General told Congress it was unconstitutional to ban guns like MGs, SBRs, etc. Since the congresscritters could not ban them, they set up a process that was so difficult and murky, few would make it through. That said .... Many of us who have been dealing with NFA/ATF/etc. for decades have finally figured it out. So it's clear to us ... and we sometimes get a little short with answering the common questions. Most are addressed in the FAQ, but when it turns into a "why?" thread ... sigh ... Here is an imprecise analogy that may help: When you get your driver's license, you are expected to know all the traffic laws in your state, and obey them. The license does not exempt you from any laws –– instead, it places a new burden on you to obey them. I said "imprecise" above because we all know that a Form 1 is not a license per se. But it is governmental permission for you to perform a certain act –– making a new NFA firearm –– and thus, it is like a license which grants you permission to drive a vehicle. Federal law governing NFA firearms covers quite a few chapters. One chapter established the application process. Another chapter set out regulations for those who make or manufacture new NFA items, including the requirement that all new NFA items be engraved with the name/city/state of the maker or manufacturer. The only exception to the engraving rule is when both Tech Branch and Legal Branch grant a written request for an official marking variance, and such variances are specific to the individual asking for it. When a Form 1 application is submitted, the NFA Branch examiner is simply examining the documentation to make sure the item is legal under state and federal law (for instance, no new MGs for civilians), and that the applicant is qualified under federal law to make and possess the item. That's it. NFA Branch examiners do not have the legal authority to grant a marking variance to ATF engraving regs. Only Legal and Tech branches have that authority under federal law. Now, again, those of us who have been doing this for decades, know that there is no legal requirement to list your proposed engraving on the Form 1 itself. For 76 years, ATF has been granting Form 1s with no engraving specified. That does not mean the engraving is not required –– instead, it is not required to be listed on the Form 1. And the applicant still must conform to all federal laws, including engraving. Until the past few years, I had never seen a Form 1 which listed the proposed engraving. That's because someone less familiar with the process posted on the internet that you had to list it in 4h, and like all false internet rumors, it took on a life of its own. So Form 1's started showing up at NFA Branch with proposed engraving wording written in 4h. Most examiners ignored it, because it is not on the official checklist for the approval process. Then folks started posting on the internet about how "ATF approved my Form 1 with proposed engraving of ABRLT, LV, NV! Ya-hoo!" Well, no, they didn't. They approved a document allowing you to make an NFA item which still must meet all federal laws. Tech Branch and particularly Legal Branch noticed this (they do surf the internet, ya know. And this is one of their bookmarked sites) and told examiners to start looking for 4h engraving proposals, and if someone listed an unacceptable engraving, to notify the applicant. Now, like all management edicts that are not formally incorporated into the approval process manual, some examiners follow this closely, some follow it when they notice it, others don't follow it at all. Maybe they were out sick the day the memo was issued. But to repeat: NFA examiners have no authority to grant marking variances. Just as if you wrote on your Form 1's box 4h, "will also be converted to full-auto," or "will frequently be carried in New York City and Washington, D.C.," and it was signed by ATF, approval of the Form 1 does not give you legal authority to break federal law. If you write on your driver's license application, "will be used to drive in excess of 100 mph on interstates" and they issue you the license, do you think that notation will get you out of a speeding ticket? Sorry to be so long-winded .... but I hope this clears up some of the confusion. 
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So do you put anything in "h", I didn't will my form get kicked back? I did have the lower engraved though... Someone else may be able to tell you what is SUPPOSED to go in 4h, it's probably depends on what's already marked on the firearm, but your form will NOT get kicked back. |
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Normally, you can leave 4h blank.
The only form I have with anything else listed in Box 4h is for Bear's Bark, my 20-ga SBS. On the paperwork, the manufacturer is LRM Firearms, the model is Bear's Bark, and the serial number is xx001, which we assigned and engraved. In box 4h we listed the engravings already on the host firearm: "IGA Gaucha, SN# 3645xx". The info generally required in 4h is additional engraving –– that may be the firearm importer's info, a model name (like "Diana Grade" or "One of 500" or "AR15.Com commemorative," as well as the original serial number if you decide to assign a new, different serial number. If it is not present on the host firearm before you file the Form 1, there is no need to list it in 4h. And since you do not need to engrave your maker's info until the Form 1 is approved, there is no requirement to list what you plan to engrave in the future to comply with federal law after the Form 1 has been approved. |
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