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Posted: 6/3/2006 4:25:50 PM EDT
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Now that the ATF does not allow a range for the barrel length option on the Form 1, can I register my AR-15 as an SBR with a listed 11.5" barrel but later add a 14.5" upper without breaking the law? I posted in a thread a while back that was about this but, I do not know where to add a notation on my form for a second upper receiver that has a 14.5" barrel... Thanks! |
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New NFA/FTB Letter in Town here: http://www.subguns.com/boards/mgmsg.cgi?read=543922 U.S. Department of Justice Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Martinsburg, WV 25401 www.atf.gov 903050:AG 3311/2006-597 MAY 01 2006 Mr. Dear Mr. : This refers to your correspondence dated March 8, 2006, to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF), in which you posed questions regarding short-barreled rifles (SBRs) and sound suppressors (silencers). Your letter was referred to ATF’s Firearms Technology Branch (FTB), Martinsburg, West Virginia, for reply. As you are aware, both of these items are "firearms" defined and controlled by the National Firearms Act (NFA). You are also aware that the possession or transfer of these items requires appropriate NFA paperwork and tax payment(s). With respect to your question regarding whether a sound suppressor permanently attached to a firearm barrel is considered part of the barrel for determination of length, ATF considers muzzle attachments, including sound suppressors that are permanently attached to the barrel (by blind pinning, welding, or high temperature silver soldering), to be an integral part of the barrel, and measures such items accordingly. As you know, a firearm barrel with a permanently attached sound suppressor is considered a "silencer" under the NFA and must be possessed and transferred in accordance with all NFA provisions. In your next question, concerning lawful actions after the acquisition of an AR-15 pattern rifle, you ask if additional AR-15 rifle(s) and/or components such as upper or lower receiver assemblies could be obtained after such a short-barreled rifle is lawfully obtained. Further, you inquire about exchanging the short-barreled upper receiver assembly of a registered, short-barreled AR-15 type rifle with an upper receiver assembly having a barrel of greater than 16 inches. In general, the owner of a registered short-barreled AR-15 type rifle may exchange the "short" upper for a "long" upper, and then reinstall the "short" upper at a later time. This activity does not change the classification of the item because a registered SBR with a "long" barrel installed is still registered as a SBR, and any possession, transfer, and transportation of such a firearm must be conducted in accordance with all applicable NFA regulations. -2- Mr. Regarding the possession of a registered SBR AR-15 in addition to other AR-15 pattern firearms or components, such possession is generally lawful with several caveats: • During any reconfiguration of such firearm(s), a "short" barrel or upper receiver assembly must never be installed on an "unregistered" AR-15 rifle receiver. • The registered SBR AR-15 must not be placed in any other NFA configuration, such as Any Other Weapon (AOW). • Unregistered receivers must never be placed in ANY NFA configuration. • Most importantly, any "excess" upper or lower receiver assemblies should correspond to complete firearms of lawful configuration. For example, possession of a spare "short" barreled upper receiver assembly (for the lawfully registered SBR), along with an unregistered AR-15 lower receiver assembly having an attached shoulder stock, may constitute possession of an unregistered SBR. In such a case, the unregistered lower receiver assembly should be assembled into a complete rifle with a "long" upper receiver assembly. Finally, we encourage you to contact State and local law enforcement organizations about possible additional regulations regarding the possession, transfer, and transportation of the items described in this correspondence. We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive. Sincerely yours, [Signed Richard Vasquez "for"] Sterling Nixon Chief, Firearms Technology Branch |
I think everyone, including BATFE, is aware the difference between .223 and 5.56mm is in the chamber dimensions. Fill out your form 1 however you like and I'll do the same. I haven't had one rejected yet, and I'd prefer to keep it that way. I like to have all my bets covered in the documentation. |
HERE If I put 223 in the caliber box, can I shoot 556 in the rifle without notifying ATF ? |
Anyway you could scan that into a .PDF and post it? |
Yes, please scan and post or let me know how I can get a copy. There was some confusion over this issue in another thread relating to constructive possession of a SBR when you had a registered machine gun, spare uppers less than 16" and an unregistered semi-auto AR. |
| Brian Blakely(subguns.com) can assist in pdf/posting. He is compiling a list of FTB letters to post for all to reference. [email protected] |
What about this little tidbit:
Does this mean that all those guys who decided to go SBR instead of AOW with pistols are breaking the law? Example: You want an AR pistol with a vertical grip. If you put a vertical grip on an AR pistol, you have just created an AOW which requires a $200 tax to make. If you take a rifle and put a short barrel on it, that also requires a $200 tax to make and you can put a vertical grip on it. The SBR is more versatile, so they say, because you can have a stock for rifle config, or remove the stock for pistol configuration. So now they are saying that if you SBR a rifle, put a VFG on it, that's cool, but if you remove the stock portion (very easy with collapsible stock), you have just put the rifle into AOW configuration and have broken the law? WTF are these guys smoking? |
Their problem is that they have built a complex house of (rules) cards on top of the actual law. A lot of their thinking is based upon wood and blued steel guns. The AR and its cousins don't fit neatly into that pattern, so they try to keep the house of cards from collapsing by adding more and more rules, without looking at how they interact. |
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Your letter if dated May 1,2006 would be the answer to many threads here that lead to the "constructive possession" catch 22. Brian Blakley removed my personal info from a letter I sent to Chief Sterling Nixon and posted pdf/image for all to see. We are all very interested to see your letter. Please post or allow someone to post for you. THX! |
Yes, that is my understanding. They have said they will reject ranges such as 7.5"-15.9" or less than 16" or calibers such as "MULTI", per the last letter I saw, although some have still been approved nonetheless. My understanding from their last letter that as long as you put specific information, it will approved, all other things being acceptable. I do not read this to mean that it is acceptable to ATF to have multiple short barreled uppers of various sub-16" lengths with unregistered lowers also in possession. That as discussed above is a different issue. I do understand it to mean that I can rebarrel the existing upper with a barrel of one of the lengths that I specified if the form was approved with those specific lengths. |
I just finished reading this, is it true?
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Not according to a letter I recently received, dated May 1. While the whole idea of swappable uppers and lowers seems to give the ATFE a mild case of the vapors, the letter is quite clear: "Regarding the possession of a registered SBR AR-15 in addition to other AR-15 pattern firearms or components, such possession is generally lawful with several caveats: During any reconfiguration of such firearm(s) a "short" barrel or upper receiver assembly must never be installed on an "unregistered" AR-15 rifle receiver. The registered SBR AR-15 must not be placed in any other NFA configuration, such as Any Other Weapon (AOW). Unregistered receivers must never be placed in ANY NFA configuration. Most importantly, any "excess" upper or lower receiver assemblies should correspond to complete firearms of lawful configuration. For example, possession of a spare "short" barreled upper receiver assembly (for the lawfully registered SBR), along with an unregistered AR-15 lower receiver assembly having an attached shoulder stock, may constitute possession of an unregistered SBR. In such a case, the unregistered lower receiver assembly should be assembled into a complete rifle with a "long" upper receiver assembly" Basically, if you have an SBR, you can have all the short uppers you want with it. You can own a non-SBR AR, too. What might get you into hot water is having an assembled lower, an SBR, and no long-barreled upper to go on the assembled spare lower. |
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS WASHINGTON, DC 20226 MAR 29 2000 Dear Mr. : This refers to your letter of January 22, 1999, requesting information on the legality of possessing a registered full auto AR15 and also possessing one or more semiautomatic pre-1994 assembled AR15 rifles. You appended a number of specific questions relating to this subject which will be answered in the order received. Is it legal to own both? There are no provisions under the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA) or the National Firearms Act (NFA) that prevent an individual from possessing an AR15 registered machinegun and one or more semiautomatic AR15 rifles at the same time. If legal to own both, which spare parts for the registered gun can you also own? Any weapon which shoots automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger meets the definition of a machinegun in section 5845(b) of the NFA. An AR15 rifle which is assembled with certain M16 machinegun fire control components, and which is capable of shooting automatically is a machinegun as defined. The definition of a machinegun in section 5845(b) also includes any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. Thus, an AR15 rifle possessed with separate M16 machinegun components can meet the definition of a machinegun, if the rifle shoots automatically when the components are installed. The fact that a person lawfully possesses a registered NFA firearm does not grant authorization to possess additional non-registered firearms. A person who possesses a registered M16 machinegun and a semiautomatic AR15 and a separate quantity of M16 machinegun components could be in possession of two machineguns. We advise any person who possesses an AR15 rifle not to possess M16 fire control components (trigger, hammer, disconnector, selector, and bolt carrier). If a person possessed only the M16 machinegun and spare M16 fire control components for that machinegun, the person would possess only one machinegun. Is it legal to use the upper receiver off of the semi-auto AR's on the registered AR if they are different lengths and calibers than listed on the Form 4's? Before changing the caliber of a registered machinegun you should notify the NFA Branch in writing of the proposed change. Can you have several short barrel uppers (less than 16 inches) for the registered AR and still own semi-auto AR's? The definition of a firearm in section 5845 of the NFA includes a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length. An individual possessing more than one short (less than 16 inches) barreled upper receiver for a registered AR15 machinegun (or SBR) along with one or more semiautomatic AR15 rifles would have under their possession of control an unregistered short barreled rifle, a violation of the NFA. If you change the barrel length or caliber do I need to notify your office if the change is not a permanent one? This question was answered under Question 3. We trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. If we can be of any further assistance, please contact us. Sincerely yours, [signed] Edward M. Owen, Jr. Chief, Firearms Technology Branch According to this letter, one can NOT own spare parts. I've posted a topic on subguns here: http://www.subguns.com/boards/mgmsg.cgi?read=542282 asking for info on any more recent NFA/FTB letters. No one has provided anything to contradict this letter. |
| One could simply modify the SBR uppers so they can only be installed on the registered lower. Say, having a small lug 1/2" or 1/4" wide & 1/8" tall TIG'ed somewhere on the mating surface of each of the SBR uppers & a coresponding notch cut in the registered lower. Yes, it can be done & still look decent. Say, behind the front pivot lug. Such a mod would be invisible when the upper is installed and you still can't mount that upper on any other lower. Then it wouldn't matter how many SBR uppers & non-registered lowers you have, because constructive posession just went out the window. |
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Simpy fill out your form with all the lengths you would want ( I put it like this: 7.5",10.5", 11.5", 14.5") You have to write small but it will fit. you can do the same for calibers. Simply keep barrel assemblies in the different length and/or calibers, but not complete uppers on hand, that way they are not hot-swappable onto a non registered weapon without tools. I can swap a barrel out in about 30 min once my tools are laid out. |
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Yes, you need to specifiy a barrel length for the registration, but you are not limited to that length for practical purposes. You can register whatever length you want, then swap uppers and barrel lengths at will. NFA Branch "requests" to be notified when changes to the registration data occur, though this is voluntary. The requirement to register a specific length or caliber is a standard set by non-AR type SBRs and NFA Branch is acting according to that standard when disallowing non-specific registration data. ARs are rather unique in their ability to swap uppers, hence barrel lengths and calibers. Most rifles do not swap barrels very easily, so whatever barrel length and caliber is registered is usually what it stays at. The Registry has a field for barrel length and caliber and NFA Branch cannot/will not use "various" to fill it. Furthermore, the NFA Branch "request" that you notify them of barrel length or caliber changes relates to that general standard too. If your SBR Thompson or Winchester 94 was registered at 12 inches and you then went to 14 inches, NFA Branch will want to modify the Registry data to reflect that because the chances are that it will remain that way for a long time and they want an accurate accounting of that weapon. However, people who write to NFA Branch to notify them of the frequent barrel length changes to their AR SBR are a bit willy-nilly. NFA Branch fully understands the nature of the AR system and does not expect let alone want owners to write them each and every time a different caliber or length is used. It is simply understood that some degree of barrel length and caliber swapping will occur. |
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Yes, but it is also understood that the SBR wording does NOT state: "a rifle having a barrel or barrels a specific length less than 16 inches in length." frikkin' ATF.  however, ya' think there's a loophole with the wording "barrels"?? Maybe that can help skirt the multiple upper issue... 
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The law is not what says we have to specify a caliber or barrel length on the Form 1, it's the registration mechanism that the law empowers ATF to create that mandates their collecting that data. The law simply defines SBR. However, your definition is what allows us to use ANY and ALL barrel length below 16" after registration with no further notification. |
It is the same, but because barrel length and/or OAL are the defining charateristics of an SBR, that's where specifics are necessary. MGs are not defined by their caliber, usually. Caliber info in the registry is ancillary (unless it's C&R where caliber is limited) and they do not need to know when you go from 9mm to .223 in your MG. The only caveat is if you get into DD territory with your MG caliber conversion. If you could somhow make a 40mm upper for your registered M-16, you would be creating an MG/DD along the lines of a 20mm Oerlikon or Vulcan cannon. This would require an additional Form 1 of an existing MG into a DD. These types of NFA firearms can only be transferred through a DD SOT FFL. This is the only instance where a caliber conversion gets beyond the scope of "machine gun." This is also the only instance where one NFA category does not trump another. A DD that fires full-auto is both an MG and a DD because these definitions are not mutually exclusive whereas all other NFA definitions are. Adding a .22LR upper to your MG receiver is fine and no further ATF correspondance is needed. For example, HK sears are usually advertised as being "registered in all 3 calibers," but this is pure marketing and has no impact on your ability to use that sear in a host gun. You may use any registered sear in any sub-DD caliber host gun for which it is designed to fit and function in regardless of what caliber it was registered in or what caliber the Form 4 says. |
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