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MT, USA
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Posted: 10/14/2021 12:54:28 AM EDT
[#1]
I wouldn't worry about the pitting.
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Posted: 10/14/2021 9:45:00 AM EDT
[#2]
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MT, USA
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Posted: 10/14/2021 9:52:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Third_Rail]
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wingnut116ACW: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/29456/Screenshot_20211014-094259_Drive_2_jpg-2129404.JPG This should be useful. By itself I didn't find it all that useful to be honest. None of that entire document is - knowing what it's called is a step though. It doesn't seem to appear listed elsewhere - that was the dead end I ran into last time I looked. |
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Posted: 10/14/2021 10:32:35 AM EDT
[#4]
13oz of double based propellant. That's more than I knew yesterday. Asking around about the propellant data.
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MT, USA
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Posted: 10/14/2021 11:02:33 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wingnut116ACW: 13oz of double based propellant. That's more than I knew yesterday. Asking around about the propellant data. Fair enough - if I'd thought you hadn't already found that PDF I would have sent you the link. As a tip: it's easier to find such documents if you search not for the weapon system but instead for the actual nomenclature of a suitable modern training projectile round. They're always listed in the manuals. |
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Posted: 10/14/2021 11:11:49 AM EDT
[#6]
I realize that the propellant is strip propellant, but how could we go about reproducing the function if not form with available double base propellant grains? Vacuum sealing a set weight into super thin walled plastic tubes?
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MT, USA
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Posted: 10/14/2021 11:50:07 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wingnut116ACW: I realize that the propellant is strip propellant, but how could we go about reproducing the function if not form with available double base propellant grains? Vacuum sealing a set weight into super thin walled plastic tubes? You'd need to manufacture larger grains of propellant. Any way of holding finely divided small arms smokeless will give far higher pressures and a much faster burn curve than you want. That being the case - I'd wager the ATF would frown on any attempt at using a solvent to create large grains/strips of smokeless. There must be another way. |
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Posted: 10/14/2021 12:48:17 PM EDT
[#8]
Cordite?
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MT, USA
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Posted: 10/14/2021 4:03:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Third_Rail]
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: Cordite? In form? Yes. More or less the same idea. The components involved - especially the burn rate moderator - are more modern. ETA: Everything I can find so far says what I feared. Propellant unsuitable for small arms requires an FEL. On the up side you'd then hopefully be able to directly purchase proper propellant. |
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Posted: 10/14/2021 4:06:03 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wingnut116ACW: I realize that the propellant is strip propellant, but how could we go about reproducing the function if not form with available double base propellant grains? Vacuum sealing a set weight into super thin walled plastic tubes? I believe it's a proprietary explosive developed by SAAB (or whoever it was at the time). If using a gun-powder, you're probably going to need really slow stuff - like 20mm or bigger cannon-type stuff, which gets into potential FEL territory. I've had conversations with people much smarter than myself about this, and it gets really complicated really fast. |
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Posted: 10/14/2021 4:07:14 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wingnut116ACW: Secondary thought: Anyone have a cheek pad that I could get dimensions off of or borrow? My launcher is also missing the shoulder rest/bipod attachment point. Anyone have pics of one? I have a guy that will be able to make me a sling and a cheek pad out of top quality leather. Id rather have a pattern than let him wing it, but he made a fantastic padded leather sling for my MAG58 build. I have all of those things, and can take pictures (and/or measure) if you want. |
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Posted: 10/14/2021 4:07:59 PM EDT
[#12]
Let me know if you need any advice on the Form 1
 
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MT, USA
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Posted: 10/14/2021 4:09:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Third_Rail]
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DK-Prof: I believe it's a proprietary explosive developed by SAAB (or whoever it was at the time). If using a gun-powder, you're probably going to need really slow stuff - like 20mm or bigger cannon-type stuff, which gets into potential FEL territory. I've had conversations with people much smarter than myself about this, and it gets really complicated really fast. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DK-Prof: I believe it's a proprietary explosive developed by SAAB (or whoever it was at the time). If using a gun-powder, you're probably going to need really slow stuff - like 20mm or bigger cannon-type stuff, which gets into potential FEL territory. I've had conversations with people much smarter than myself about this, and it gets really complicated really fast. As feared.  What if we work the problem from another angle: digging into information for the earlier 75mm recoilless might yield data on the composition/weight of propellant. Perhaps someone even developed a replacement load for that using modern commercially available propellant? It would be a starting point. ETA: An example of the type of data I'm looking around for from someone discussing the smaller brother - the 57mm. Primers for the 57mm are generally made using a .50BMG or a shotgun primer. Most folks use some sort of PVC setup. I'm still researching how these are built and work, but the .50/shotgun primer sets off 170-180 grains of 1F black powder. The black powder sets off the main IMR 5010 charge. This sends the projo down range. I have zero knowledge regarding reloading for the 75mm. |
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Posted: 10/14/2021 4:17:03 PM EDT
[#14]
This is why my initial focus will be on subcal rounds. Easier environment to design around. And gets it functional quicker with lower chances of taking myself off the census.
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Posted: 10/14/2021 4:26:37 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wingnut116ACW: This is why my initial focus will be on subcal rounds. Easier environment to design around. And gets it functional quicker with lower chances of taking myself off the census. Boo this man! 
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Posted: 10/14/2021 4:40:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Wingnut116ACW]
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DK-Prof: Boo this man! Step to the plate then, Doc. Use them super tenure powers I've heard of. I'm just the adjunct here. But ain't finna have my obit co-authored by some Swede. 
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Posted: 10/14/2021 4:55:33 PM EDT
[#17]
I mostly use my super powers to AVOID work. I want to sit back with a beer and watch you do all the dangerous testing!
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MT, USA
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Posted: 10/14/2021 5:10:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Third_Rail]
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wingnut116ACW: This is why my initial focus will be on subcal rounds. Easier environment to design around. And gets it functional quicker with lower chances of taking myself off the census. Fair enough - but if there's a starting point using 57mm data which I could model in QL/QD you ought to at the very least be able to launch an 84mm projectile of the same general weight as the typical 57mm projectile. That'd be a hell of a lot better than lobbing - for example - a typical 40mm payload. I'm 99.999% sure your 84mm rifle will withstand more than that few grains of Bullseye. There must be a happy medium of a safe - absolutely safe without question - load which can be propelled with commercially available options that isn't some powder-puff joke out of an 84mm. ETA: For comparison purposes the M18 57mm recoilless typically fired 2.75lbs at 1200FPS with a chamber pressure of 6500PSI. |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 10/14/2021 5:42:28 PM EDT
[#19]
Would you be able to use black powder substitute as a propellant? Similar to what is commonly used in RPG-2 and Panzerfaust builds?
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Posted: 10/14/2021 7:06:18 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Third_Rail: Fair enough - but if there's a starting point using 57mm data which I could model in QL/QD you ought to at the very least be able to launch an 84mm projectile of the same general weight as the typical 57mm projectile. That'd be a hell of a lot better than lobbing - for example - a typical 40mm payload. I'm 99.999% sure your 84mm rifle will withstand more than that few grains of Bullseye. There must be a happy medium of a safe - absolutely safe without question - load which can be propelled with commercially available options that isn't some powder-puff joke out of an 84mm. ETA: For comparison purposes the M18 57mm recoilless typically fired 2.75lbs at 1200FPS with a chamber pressure of 6500PSI. Oh yeah, no doubt. Good thing is, at the end of the day, the ass end blows out with little restrictions. I cannot fathom a rise time of a pressure curve that would blow out the steel when theres a plastic burst disk between the chamber and atmosphere. |
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Posted: 10/14/2021 7:06:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Wingnut116ACW]
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JonathanwFL: Would you be able to use black powder substitute as a propellant? Similar to what is commonly used in RPG-2 and Panzerfaust builds? Sure. Thats what Im seeking to do, explore the canvas here. |
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Posted: 10/14/2021 8:34:27 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DK-Prof: I mostly use my super powers to AVOID work. I want to sit back with a beer and watch you do all the dangerous testing! Which is fine as long as there's no nearby trees.
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Posted: 10/14/2021 9:50:37 PM EDT
[#23]
Im arranging to have the repair hydrostatically tested after repair. 10kpsi for 2 mins will give me warm fuzzies that there's ample safety margin given the repair and material age. I think a spray welded patch will be the method attempted. I'll defer to Rudy.
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Posted: 10/14/2021 9:57:53 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: Which is fine as long as there's no nearby trees. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: Originally Posted By DK-Prof: I mostly use my super powers to AVOID work. I want to sit back with a beer and watch you do all the dangerous testing! Which is fine as long as there's no nearby trees. I’ve learned the important lesson to never try to help anyone again, or be a good neighbor. 
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MT, USA
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Posted: 10/15/2021 1:03:49 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wingnut116ACW: Im arranging to have the repair hydrostatically tested after repair. 10kpsi for 2 mins will give me warm fuzzies that there's ample safety margin given the repair and material age. I think a spray welded patch will be the method attempted. I'll defer to Rudy. Seems like overkill. Which - considering the size of the chamber and the amount of powder it's intended to house - is just right. Why spray welding? That's usually used to build up an area such as a worn bearing journal on a shaft. |
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Posted: 10/15/2021 6:16:47 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Third_Rail: Seems like overkill. Which - considering the size of the chamber and the amount of powder it's intended to house - is just right. Why spray welding? That's usually used to build up an area such as a worn bearing journal on a shaft. Fucked if I know. He was talking about milling out the torch hole into a square opening and using a cast plaster backer and spray welding a patch plate in place. I'm no machinist. I'm just the mad lad that comes up with death wish ideas with the help of my buddy Evan Williams. Speaking of which, whatcha think: discarding sabot 60mm subcal. Direct lay them mortars. |
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MT, USA
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Posted: 10/15/2021 10:08:19 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wingnut116ACW: Fucked if I know. He was talking about milling out the torch hole into a square opening and using a cast plaster backer and spray welding a patch plate in place. I'm no machinist. I'm just the mad lad that comes up with death wish ideas with the help of my buddy Evan Williams. Speaking of which, whatcha think: discarding sabot 60mm subcal. Direct lay them mortars. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wingnut116ACW: Originally Posted By Third_Rail: Seems like overkill. Which - considering the size of the chamber and the amount of powder it's intended to house - is just right. Why spray welding? That's usually used to build up an area such as a worn bearing journal on a shaft. Fucked if I know. He was talking about milling out the torch hole into a square opening and using a cast plaster backer and spray welding a patch plate in place. I'm no machinist. I'm just the mad lad that comes up with death wish ideas with the help of my buddy Evan Williams. Speaking of which, whatcha think: discarding sabot 60mm subcal. Direct lay them mortars. Direct fire 60mm subcal - recoilless edition. Oh yes. That has promise! |
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Posted: 10/15/2021 11:17:43 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Third_Rail: Direct fire 60mm subcal - recoilless edition. Oh yes. That has promise! And people say alcohol never solves anything. Hell, if I didn't have Jimmy or Evan whispering ideas in my ear, I wouldn't come up with anything fun. |
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MT, USA
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Posted: 10/15/2021 11:31:57 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wingnut116ACW: And people say alcohol never solves anything. Hell, if I didn't have Jimmy or Evan whispering ideas in my ear, I wouldn't come up with anything fun. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wingnut116ACW: Originally Posted By Third_Rail: Direct fire 60mm subcal - recoilless edition. Oh yes. That has promise! And people say alcohol never solves anything. Hell, if I didn't have Jimmy or Evan whispering ideas in my ear, I wouldn't come up with anything fun. You can have my share.  Related to the direct fire 60mm idea - have you come across the FN HIWS? Perhaps using the open rear of the 84mm to allow the subcal unit to move against hydraulic buffers would be the way to go. A long and slow recoil impulse would be the best way to shoulder fire such a beast. Or does the firing mechanism prevent that idea? I've never handled the Carl Gustaf but I doubt it would get in the way. |
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Posted: 10/15/2021 12:04:50 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Third_Rail: You can have my share. Related to the direct fire 60mm idea - have you come across the FN HIWS? Perhaps using the open rear of the 84mm to allow the subcal unit to move against hydraulic buffers would be the way to go. A long and slow recoil impulse would be the best way to shoulder fire such a beast. Or does the firing mechanism prevent that idea? I've never handled the Carl Gustaf but I doubt it would get in the way. Firing system would likely preclude that, but I'm not saying it is entirely impossible. |
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MT, USA
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Posted: 10/15/2021 3:18:56 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wingnut116ACW: Firing system would likely preclude that, but I'm not saying it is entirely impossible. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wingnut116ACW: Originally Posted By Third_Rail: You can have my share. Related to the direct fire 60mm idea - have you come across the FN HIWS? Perhaps using the open rear of the 84mm to allow the subcal unit to move against hydraulic buffers would be the way to go. A long and slow recoil impulse would be the best way to shoulder fire such a beast. Or does the firing mechanism prevent that idea? I've never handled the Carl Gustaf but I doubt it would get in the way. Firing system would likely preclude that, but I'm not saying it is entirely impossible. I really thought it was most like a RPG where the firing pin came in perpendicular to the tube - just at the back. If that's the case then having the subcal unit reciprocate on firing should be totally doable. |
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Posted: 10/15/2021 3:31:42 PM EDT
[#32]
Oh crap! This is awesome.
Tag. |
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Posted: 10/15/2021 5:34:48 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Third_Rail: I really thought it was most like a RPG where the firing pin came in perpendicular to the tube - just at the back. If that's the case then having the subcal unit reciprocate on firing should be totally doable. Now that just gave me a great idea. |
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Posted: 10/15/2021 7:42:47 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Third_Rail: I really thought it was most like a RPG where the firing pin came in perpendicular to the tube - just at the back. If that's the case then having the subcal unit reciprocate on firing should be totally doable. I know how it can be done now. A soft recoil/recoilless 20mm! |
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MT, USA
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Posted: 10/15/2021 8:14:44 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wingnut116ACW: I know how it can be done now. A soft recoil/recoilless 20mm! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wingnut116ACW: Originally Posted By Third_Rail: I really thought it was most like a RPG where the firing pin came in perpendicular to the tube - just at the back. If that's the case then having the subcal unit reciprocate on firing should be totally doable. I know how it can be done now. A soft recoil/recoilless 20mm! Better be careful with that one. Having to have a strong breech that by the nature of such a subcal can be fired standalone means it's likely another F1. |
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Posted: 10/15/2021 8:35:25 PM EDT
[#36]
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Posted: 10/15/2021 8:39:32 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Third_Rail: Better be careful with that one. Having to have a strong breech that by the nature of such a subcal can be fired standalone means it's likely another F1. I have a plan for that, actually. Apologies for being vague, the mechanism is one I envisioned years ago for RPG-2, -7, and CG that prevents subcals from being considered stand alone firearms. I intend to patent for commercial use if it testing goes well. My intent is to license its use to commercial ranges and film houses and use patent protection to ensure exclusivity for for commercial purposes and open source the design for individuals and non-commercial use under Creative Commons. |
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MT, USA
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Posted: 10/15/2021 8:54:47 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wingnut116ACW: I have a plan for that, actually. Apologies for being vague, the mechanism is one I envisioned years ago for RPG-2, -7, and CG that prevents subcals from being considered stand alone firearms. I intend to patent for commercial use if it testing goes well. My intent is to license its use to commercial ranges and film houses and use patent protection to ensure exclusivity for for commercial purposes and open source the design for individuals and non-commercial use under Creative Commons. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wingnut116ACW: Originally Posted By Third_Rail: Better be careful with that one. Having to have a strong breech that by the nature of such a subcal can be fired standalone means it's likely another F1. I have a plan for that, actually. Apologies for being vague, the mechanism is one I envisioned years ago for RPG-2, -7, and CG that prevents subcals from being considered stand alone firearms. I intend to patent for commercial use if it testing goes well. My intent is to license its use to commercial ranges and film houses and use patent protection to ensure exclusivity for for commercial purposes and open source the design for individuals and non-commercial use under Creative Commons. Good deal! I figured you'd already have thought of it and whipped up a few workarounds. |
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Posted: 10/15/2021 9:17:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Wingnut116ACW]
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Third_Rail: Good deal! I figured you'd already have thought of it and whipped up a few workarounds. Whipped up? Not yet. Don't have a viable test platform. Conceived of? Yes. I have bar napkins. Aaand, I should hopefully start a program in Jan that will include a course in administrative law and another in legal research. Helps me in my trade and in this endeavor as well. |
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Posted: 10/15/2021 11:39:14 PM EDT
[#40]
Originally Posted By Wingnut116ACW: I know how it can be done now. A soft recoil/recoilless 20mm! A stand alone 20mm recoiless would be pretty cool. Or 40mm or 37mm or 26.5mm
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Posted: 10/16/2021 1:36:34 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Third_Rail: Better be careful with that one. Having to have a strong breech that by the nature of such a subcal can be fired standalone means it's likely another F1. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Third_Rail: Originally Posted By Wingnut116ACW: Originally Posted By Third_Rail: I really thought it was most like a RPG where the firing pin came in perpendicular to the tube - just at the back. If that's the case then having the subcal unit reciprocate on firing should be totally doable. I know how it can be done now. A soft recoil/recoilless 20mm! Better be careful with that one. Having to have a strong breech that by the nature of such a subcal can be fired standalone means it's likely another F1. What about using a combustion chamber and burst disc on the cartridge casing? Similar to how the reloadable 40mm rounds work, just sized up appropriately. The burst disc would have to blow into a vented cavity to allow for some geometry for the rear gas flow, but it should still be doable. Previous job had some monster gas generators using Winchester 231. |
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Posted: 10/16/2021 7:56:35 AM EDT
[#42]
On the subject of propellant, here is a diagram I found in an Army manual showing performance variations as a result of grain profile, given the same propellant.
Shape is critical.  Attached File |
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Posted: 10/16/2021 9:32:18 AM EDT
[#43]
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VA, USA
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Posted: 10/16/2021 10:06:01 AM EDT
[#44]
I am a Mechanical Engineer.
Instead of trying to figure out the original propellant used I suggest a Hi/Low pressure system similar to the 40mm grenade launchers. You should be able to work out a high pressure chamber made of aluminum that will vent at a known pressure to generate the secondary chamber pressure needed to launch a real projectile. I would start off really low and work up using a test projectile made of polymer like UHMW. Gradually add weight to the polymer projectile and work up to the real deal. UHMW is slick and if chamber pressure isn't high enough in initial testing you could drive it out of the barrel easily if it gets stuck. Obviously, test firing would be done with a really long string behind cover. Awesome project. Can't wait to see how it works out. Always wanted to try a Gustoff. |
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Posted: 10/16/2021 10:58:44 AM EDT
[#45]
Welcome aboard. I think success criteria for this should be to achieve round development to mirror as close as technically and financially feasible that has at least the payload of a factory round with a range of 5-600 m as an initial goal. And this is using commercially available materials with no special storage requirements.
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MT, USA
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Posted: 10/16/2021 11:13:29 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wingnut116ACW: Welcome aboard. I think success criteria for this should be to achieve round development to mirror as close as technically and financially feasible that has at least the payload of a factory round with a range of 5-600 m as an initial goal. And this is using commercially available materials with no special storage requirements. Any loaded round of that size will legally need to be in a storage magazine. You won't be able to store loaded rounds. The amount or type of powder doesn't matter - only the bore size matters. This is exactly what 40mm enthusiasts ran into in the last decade. |
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Posted: 10/16/2021 12:22:09 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Third_Rail: Any loaded round of that size will legally need to be in a storage magazine. You won't be able to store loaded rounds. The amount or type of powder doesn't matter - only the bore size matters. This is exactly what 40mm enthusiasts ran into in the last decade. Understood. That's why I'm thinking modular rounds. It's not as if I'm shooting a lot of these at once. And honestly, the TBI issue is another that will prevent me from burning through a lot of rounds at once. So if it takes 10 min to assemble, no biggie |
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MT, USA
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Posted: 10/16/2021 1:05:37 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wingnut116ACW: Understood. That's why I'm thinking modular rounds. It's not as if I'm shooting a lot of these at once. And honestly, the TBI issue is another that will prevent me from burning through a lot of rounds at once. So if it takes 10 min to assemble, no biggie Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wingnut116ACW: Originally Posted By Third_Rail: Any loaded round of that size will legally need to be in a storage magazine. You won't be able to store loaded rounds. The amount or type of powder doesn't matter - only the bore size matters. This is exactly what 40mm enthusiasts ran into in the last decade. Understood. That's why I'm thinking modular rounds. It's not as if I'm shooting a lot of these at once. And honestly, the TBI issue is another that will prevent me from burning through a lot of rounds at once. So if it takes 10 min to assemble, no biggie I figured as much. Good to bring up TBI - a lot of people may be entirely unfamiliar with how dangerous repeated firing of a recoilless can be. |
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Posted: 10/16/2021 2:03:09 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Third_Rail: I figured as much. Good to bring up TBI - a lot of people may be entirely unfamiliar with how dangerous repeated firing of a recoilless can be. When I started down the path of doing the RPG-2, I reached out to a mfg of blast sensors. They said they'd loan me a set for gathering data on firing the RPG-2 as no one had data on that. I have a friend from MIT that also got her PhD in neuroscience that is willing to co-author a paper on the subject that could be presented to US SOCOM or anyone that is interested. I also want to gather CG blast data as a gunner and bystander. |
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Posted: 10/16/2021 4:28:22 PM EDT
[#50]
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