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Posted: 3/22/2012 11:02:10 AM EDT
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This is not really a DD, since it is not an NFA item, but I have no diea where to put this on the forums besides here. I guess it did use to be a destructive device unti it was used once.
I'm not really sure why I bought this since I can't actually use it. Maybe just because it's cool? I dunno...it'll make a cool looking display. I got lucky and found this one, and unlike almost all of them out there, it is actually in perfect condition. Still has sights, sling, shoulder stop...everything minus the rocket in it ofcourse haha. It'll make a great wall hanger 
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Maybe it's the wrong tube/launcher, but I thought there might be a 9mm training insert that fired a tracer round for training purposes.
If there is such a thing, perhaps someone knows about it, and then you could do something with it other than just look at it. 
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Quoted: Maybe it's the wrong tube/launcher, but I thought there might be a 9mm training insert that fired a tracer round for training purposes. If there is such a thing, perhaps someone knows about it, and then you could do something with it other than just look at it. The SMAW has a 9mm targeting round. |
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Maybe it's the wrong tube/launcher, but I thought there might be a 9mm training insert that fired a tracer round for training purposes. If there is such a thing, perhaps someone knows about it, and then you could do something with it other than just look at it. There is a 9mm AT4 trainer. Very cool. |
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Yes, there is a subcaliber trainer for the AT-4. It's designated as the M287 and does indeed use a custom loaded 9mm utilizing a standard 9mm casing. The longer 9mm round that is often referenced to is one that is specific to the subcaliber device for SMAW. I wish I could find a better diagram but the whole subcaliber adapter is sort of a drop-in type of fixture. An expended AT-4 is converted by removing the cap screws that attach the exhaust cone to the rear of the tube and replacing it with another cone that has the subcaliber unit attached to it. It uses an 8" barrel which comes from a 9mm conversion kit originally designed for the M3 grease gun. As you can see from the diagram, the rounds are loaded into the chamber and the bolt is turned either 90 degrees ot almost 180 degrees to lock it. I can't really remember. I've only seen one of these for sale outside of the military. Oddly enough, it was an item seized by ATF, and after trial and it was no longer needed for evidence, the US Attorney authorized it's release for sale so that the defendant could use the monies received to pay towards his attorneys fees. The only caveat was that it was missing the bolt.
I've always wondered how this would be viewed for regulatory purposes. Is it an SBR because it has an 8" barrel and is fired from the shoulder? Is the fold out shoulder strap considered a shoulder stock? Is it an AOW because the subcaliber device is disguised within the tube? Or is it a plain old title 1 firearm due to it's OAL of more than 26"? I've toyed around with somehow stripping down a rifled 20 gauge single shot shotgun and affixing it in the tube in order to fire those 14.5mm artillery subcaliber impact training rounds. The ballistics of that round wouldn't be as flat as the 9mm trainer, but at a close enough distance the sights may be close enough to be acceptable. 
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Yes, there is a subcaliber trainer for the AT-4. It's designated as the M287 and does indeed use a custom loaded 9mm utilizing a standard 9mm casing. The longer 9mm round that is often referenced to is one that is specific to the subcaliber device for SMAW. I wish I could find a better diagram but the whole subcaliber adapter is sort of a drop-in type of fixture. An expended AT-4 is converted by removing the cap screws that attach the exhaust cone to the rear of the tube and replacing it with another cone that has the subcaliber unit attached to it. It uses an 8" barrel which comes from a 9mm conversion kit originally designed for the M3 grease gun. As you can see from the diagram, the rounds are loaded into the chamber and the bolt is turned either 90 degrees ot almost 180 degrees to lock it. I can't really remember. I've only seen one of these for sale outside of the military. Oddly enough, it was an item seized by ATF, and after trial and it was no longer needed for evidence, the US Attorney authorized it's release for sale so that the defendant could use the monies received to pay towards his attorneys fees. The only caveat was that it was missing the bolt. I've always wondered how this would be viewed for regulatory purposes. Is it an SBR because it has an 8" barrel and is fired from the shoulder? Is the fold out shoulder strap considered a shoulder stock? Is it an AOW because the subcaliber device is disguised within the tube? Or is it a plain old title 1 firearm due to it's OAL of more than 26"? I've toyed around with somehow stripping down a rifled 20 gauge single shot shotgun and affixing it in the tube in order to fire those 14.5mm artillery subcaliber impact training rounds. The ballistics of that round wouldn't be as flat as the 9mm trainer, but at a close enough distance the sights may be close enough to be acceptable. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/23-25/23250083.gif http://i44.tinypic.com/10zty86.jpg Very cool |
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My unit had a ton of these spent AT4's laying around and wasting space. I didn't know you could get them off the streets. If I had to gess, this was stolen at one time.... :/ Prettyy common to get these off the streets. Pawn shops, ebay, gunbroker. They aren't stolen, people just bring them back. One of my friends brought back two of them once his tour was over as well. It isn't a firearm, so there are not really any restrictions on them. Just a cool thing really. |
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I would have sworn that when I shot those training rounds in the Army that they were blue-tipped. Or maybe the whole projectile was blue.
I remember telling the cadre that I wish I had some to shoot out of my pistol and he said that it'd probably blow my pistol up. 
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I would have sworn that when I shot those training rounds in the Army that they were blue-tipped. Or maybe the whole projectile was blue. I remember telling the cadre that I wish I had some to shoot out of my pistol and he said that it'd probably blow my pistol up. Could it have looked like this? These look like they are some newer style. 
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Here is a better diagram of the adapter. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/23-25/23250084.gif Here is a video with some nice details of the adapter. This looks like a new style of bolt.  http://youtu.be/linZrCRS3t0Man that's cool. I wish I could buy one of those, and install it on this. Mike |
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Yeah, that's them! I thought I remembered alot of blue with those rounds.
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I would have sworn that when I shot those training rounds in the Army that they were blue-tipped. Or maybe the whole projectile was blue. I remember telling the cadre that I wish I had some to shoot out of my pistol and he said that it'd probably blow my pistol up. Could it have looked like this? These look like they are some newer style. http://i52.tinypic.com/2lj2t7c.jpg http://i55.tinypic.com/515vrr.jpg[/quote] |
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Where did you get that? How much? eBay has a few Yep. Ebay, gunbroker, and pawn shops. Almost all of them will be missing parts or the sights will be broen off though. Just be patient, and you'll find a nice one with everything on it and working like mine. |
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Maybe it's the wrong tube/launcher, but I thought there might be a 9mm training insert that fired a tracer round for training purposes. If there is such a thing, perhaps someone knows about it, and then you could do something with it other than just look at it. When I was in basic training circa 1992, we had AT4's with 9mm rounds. Cost effective training. DI fired the two real AT4's. They didn't trust us
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I posted this in the other post RE the Swedish Bofors/SAAB made AT-4:
The AT-4 - say it out loud: "A-T-4" or "Ay-Tee-Four" Get it? AT4 = "84" as in "84mm" as in: -developed originally from the 84mm Carl Gustav recoilless rifle, which was 1st introduced in 1946. Swedish 84mm rounds are also marked "FFV" which is an abreviation for the factory where the Gustav, its rounds, and the AT-4 are made (note its also on the 1st box of 9mm rounds above). Our AT4 (made by SAAB/Borfors of Sweden) does indeed have a recoilless propelling charge exactly like the 84mm recoilless rifle. BUT, the tube is smooth-bore, unlike the 84mm recoiless rifle. This is why the projectile for the AT4 requires spring loaded stabilizing fins while most (but not all) 84mm Carl Gustav projectiles do not. Older Gustav 84s (the M1 and M2 models) are all steel. Newer Gustav 84s (the M3 model) have steel barel liners wrapped in composite for light weight. The AT4 has always been composite with thin steel linings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT4 |
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. . . I've always wondered how this would be viewed for regulatory purposes. Is it an SBR because it has an 8" barrel and is fired from the shoulder? Is the fold out shoulder strap considered a shoulder stock? Is it an AOW because the subcaliber device is disguised within the tube? Or is it a plain old title 1 firearm due to it's OAL of more than 26"? I've toyed around with somehow stripping down a rifled 20 gauge single shot shotgun and affixing it in the tube in order to fire those 14.5mm artillery subcaliber impact training rounds. The ballistics of that round wouldn't be as flat as the 9mm trainer, but at a close enough distance the sights may be close enough to be acceptable. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/23-25/23250083.gif http://i44.tinypic.com/10zty86.jpg Obsolete/older sub cal devices are out there: I've seen them in the last few years for the 57mm RR, the 75mm RR, the 90mm RR and the 106mm RR. They are difficult to place into BATFE or NFA categories. They are not handguns exactly, nor are they rifles; the most similar "firearm" I've seen of the type -as far a legal category of firearms - is the miniature semi-auto belt-fed M1919 from Lakeside machine (link: http://www.lakesideguns.com/ ). Not a rifle, <16" barrel, and not a handgun. Getting back to individual sub cal units, they are generally treated / transfered as non-firearms (like uppers). They don't generally function without a host registered firearm - like uppers. NOTE: this does not mean you could't get a sub-cal to "go off: without the registered gun - that is also true of uppers, but they are NOTfirearms. Sometimes sub-cal units are mistakenly transferred as Title I guns l- but I'm doubtful that is correct. Heck, if you asked batfe to do a NICS "transfer" a nomal upper or even a pointy stick, they'd probably process the paperwork like anything else; it does not mean its correct. OP: if you decide tomake your own sub-cal, you might avoid anything over .50 cal just because this is a grey area. I am aware that 20 gauge and 12 gauge are exempt from the rule as "sporting" and thus not D.D.s - but would that exemption apply to a subcal of what is originally a DD? I would not want to be a test case. As for other sub cals, here is a great sub-cal 75mm made by Ordnance.com for inspiration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PQt3GuKgGA |
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I just purchased a AT4 and SMAW tube here on the arfcom EE about a month ago or so. They do come up every so often here. If you keep an eye on gunbroker or ebay you can pick one up for around $300 thats complete. Generally people seem to ask $350+ on gunbroker for at4's but they don't seem to sell much at that price. Both ebay and gunbroker will always have a few at4's for sale.
Heres a quick breakdown from someone who has been on a inert launcher/ordnance buying spree for the last month. LAW launchers seem to be selling(selling, not inflated asking prices that never sell) for $200-$300 depending on the model and condition. I just bought a mint condition LAW that was the A7 model(recent/current usage) with no issues and including the front cap/carrying strap, in the low $200's shipped. The earlier models are a bit harder to find online than the A7's but they do have that cool glass reticle front sight. If you keep an eye out you can get one at a decent price. Many of the "buy it now" prices on both LAWs and AT4's on gunbroker are ones that have been listed and relisted over and over again, hoping someone will overpay for it without examining what the actual selling prices have been. SMAW tubes are a little more tricky. I got mine for $50 here on EE from the same guy who sold me the AT4 but not too many pop up on the online auction sites. The one on Gunbroker was bid up to and I think"sold" for $140 but it was soon relisted the next day as an auction with a buy it now price of $140. It than failed to get anywhere close to $140 and didn't sell again. Now its relisted again. Call me cynical but unless all the bidders that were pushing it to an auction price of more than $140 suddenly lost all interest in it, its looks like a fake bidder situation on the first auction to establish a high selling price history. Either way, they appear to usually sell for under $100. TOW tubes are also a little harder to find. I just got lucky and found one on ebay that no one else bid on and I got it for $60 shipped. One of the the airsoft sites has some real tow tubes up for sale but they are around $70 plus shipping. TOW tubes are pretty large so after shipping it would probably be $100. Thats about all I know about most of the common recent collectable US military infantry missile/rocket launchers that you might find out there for sale. There are tons of other items but I've probably already gone far enough off topic for this thread. |
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THere is a video from Iraq with a unit using a Smaw with a subcaliber device to dope a target for a rocket shot It's not a subcaliber device. All regular SMAW's have a spotting rifle attached to the side of the tube that uses a unique 9mm tracer round that matches the path of the rocket. The spotting rifle is there to shoot a test shot first to ensure that the missile will hit the target when it is fired. 
Notice the spotting rifle(black) thats alongside the SMAW launcher 
Here is the SMAW spotting round. Its a unique bullet in 9mm with a large tracer pocket at the base, mounted in a completely empty 7.62 NATO case thats had the neck sized to fit the 9mm and the primer pocket drilled out to fit a 22 hornet cartridge , with a .22 Hornet blank cartridge mounted in the base. Pretty cool/unique round. All these unusual design features of this round is to tweak it to perfectly match the flight path of the SMAW rocket |
| What if a gunsmith could make a 16" 9mm barrel, or permantly attach an extension to the existing barrel makingit 16"OAL? Would it it be classified then as a single shot firearm? Also, the gentleman in the video has the palm of his hand over the business end, with a live round in the chamber, as he disengages the sights...YIKES! |
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What if a gunsmith could make a 16" 9mm barrel, or permantly attach an extension to the existing barrel makingit 16"OAL? Would it it be classified then as a single shot firearm? Also, the gentleman in the video has the palm of his hand over the business end, with a live round in the chamber, as he disengages the sights...YIKES! it'd be nice, however you'd have to develop a new load that will match the ballistics of the AT4 again. |
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Quoted: What if a gunsmith could make a 16" 9mm barrel, or permantly attach an extension to the existing barrel makingit 16"OAL? Would it it be classified then as a single shot firearm? Also, the gentleman in the video has the palm of his hand over the business end, with a live round in the chamber, as he disengages the sights...YIKES! worse, he has his hand over the muzzle when he's cocking it. |
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Maybe it's the wrong tube/launcher, but I thought there might be a 9mm training insert that fired a tracer round for training purposes. If there is such a thing, perhaps someone knows about it, and then you could do something with it other than just look at it. There sure is. When in the Army on the AT 4 range, they fired one live AT 4 at Armor the rest of us low lives used 9mm tracer rounds out of a modified AT 4 |
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I saw this thread the other day and thought that trainer setup was awesome. I found someone with 2 mint condition AT-4 tubes locally. Before I buy one I'd like to try and locate one of the practice setups. Any ideas on where to find one? You can't really find them. There are some out there "in the wild" but they are rare. Plus the trainers are not found as kits, only really as converted tubes. So to make a long story short, you're not going to be able to find a practice setup to convert the tubes for sale locally. How much are they asking for the tubes? |
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I saw this thread the other day and thought that trainer setup was awesome. I found someone with 2 mint condition AT-4 tubes locally. Before I buy one I'd like to try and locate one of the practice setups. Any ideas on where to find one? You can't really find them. There are some out there "in the wild" but they are rare. Plus the trainers are not found as kits, only really as converted tubes. So to make a long story short, you're not going to be able to find a practice setup to convert the tubes for sale locally. How much are they asking for the tubes? $350. Guy has two. All intact. |
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I saw this thread the other day and thought that trainer setup was awesome. I found someone with 2 mint condition AT-4 tubes locally. Before I buy one I'd like to try and locate one of the practice setups. Any ideas on where to find one? You can't really find them. There are some out there "in the wild" but they are rare. Plus the trainers are not found as kits, only really as converted tubes. So to make a long story short, you're not going to be able to find a practice setup to convert the tubes for sale locally. How much are they asking for the tubes? $350. Guy has two. All intact. I agree - the trainers are just NOT out there. (I have heard of exactly 2 in the U.S. and one was not complete). The only option would be to re-create one (or create something similar). There are trainers for the RPG out there. They use 7.62 AK rounds. |
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I saw this thread the other day and thought that trainer setup was awesome. I found someone with 2 mint condition AT-4 tubes locally. Before I buy one I'd like to try and locate one of the practice setups. Any ideas on where to find one? You can't really find them. There are some out there "in the wild" but they are rare. Plus the trainers are not found as kits, only really as converted tubes. So to make a long story short, you're not going to be able to find a practice setup to convert the tubes for sale locally. How much are they asking for the tubes? $350. Guy has two. All intact. $350 for both or $350 for each? If its $350 for each and they are mint, thats high but not unheard of. If its $350 for both, thats a good deal. |
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I saw this thread the other day and thought that trainer setup was awesome. I found someone with 2 mint condition AT-4 tubes locally. Before I buy one I'd like to try and locate one of the practice setups. Any ideas on where to find one? You can't really find them. There are some out there "in the wild" but they are rare. Plus the trainers are not found as kits, only really as converted tubes. So to make a long story short, you're not going to be able to find a practice setup to convert the tubes for sale locally. How much are they asking for the tubes? $350. Guy has two. All intact. $350 for both or $350 for each? If its $350 for each and they are mint, thats high but not unheard of. If its $350 for both, thats a good deal. Sorry. I could have been more clear. Asking $350/ea. I was going to offer $300. |
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I saw this thread the other day and thought that trainer setup was awesome. I found someone with 2 mint condition AT-4 tubes locally. Before I buy one I'd like to try and locate one of the practice setups. Any ideas on where to find one? You can't really find them. There are some out there "in the wild" but they are rare. Plus the trainers are not found as kits, only really as converted tubes. So to make a long story short, you're not going to be able to find a practice setup to convert the tubes for sale locally. How much are they asking for the tubes? $350. Guy has two. All intact. $350 for both or $350 for each? If its $350 for each and they are mint, thats high but not unheard of. If its $350 for both, thats a good deal. Sorry. I could have been more clear. Asking $350/ea. I was going to offer $300. What is the color band?(all black, black/yellow/black, all yellow, all gold, blue, no band) If you want an AT4 and its all there(sights, sight covers, sling, intact nose fingers), $300 wouldn't be bad. If you watch gunbroker you could probably find one for cheaper but if its something you want and they are in good shape, $300 isn't bad. If there are some flip up rails on it and a folding vertical foregrip, than its a AT4 CS and definitely buy it. In fact, buy both if they are AT4 CS's. |
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I saw this thread the other day and thought that trainer setup was awesome. I found someone with 2 mint condition AT-4 tubes locally. Before I buy one I'd like to try and locate one of the practice setups. Any ideas on where to find one? You can't really find them. There are some out there "in the wild" but they are rare. Plus the trainers are not found as kits, only really as converted tubes. So to make a long story short, you're not going to be able to find a practice setup to convert the tubes for sale locally. How much are they asking for the tubes? $350. Guy has two. All intact. $350 for both or $350 for each? If its $350 for each and they are mint, thats high but not unheard of. If its $350 for both, thats a good deal. Sorry. I could have been more clear. Asking $350/ea. I was going to offer $300. What is the color band?(all black, black/yellow/black, all yellow, all gold, blue, no band) If you want an AT4 and its all there(sights, sight covers, sling, intact nose fingers), $300 wouldn't be bad. If you watch gunbroker you could probably find one for cheaper but if its something you want and they are in good shape, $300 isn't bad. If there are some flip up rails on it and a folding vertical foregrip, than its a AT4 CS and definitely buy it. In fact, buy both if they are AT4 CS's. I just sent him another email. I will report back. I very much appreciate the guidance! |
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Turns out it is black/yellow/black. Everything fully intact. If its in great shape and if everything is intact, I'd go ahead and get it. Buying an AT4 here on arfcom is how I got into ordnance collecting. You can find them cheaper if you wait and watch but its local and you get to inspect it beforehand. |
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Here is what I meant by "buy it if its a AT4 CS". The first two pictures are pictures I pulled off the internet of a regular AT4. Notice the lack of rails, lack of folding vertical foregrip and how it has a cone shape to the rear. After those two pictures are some pictures of my AT4 CS. Notice the rails, the folding vertical foregrip, and the lack of the cone shaped rear. It the ones the guy has are AT4 CS's, buy both because AT4 CS are not as common in the collecting world.
Regular AT4 
AT4 CS 
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