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Posted: 7/14/2023 2:14:13 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Princeton: I have a Sierra 5 “in jail” only been waiting for 2 months so far so I’m guessing I’ll be lucky to have it in my hands by Christmas. It’s not my intention to add any hostility to this discussion with my inquiry so my sincere apologies if that happens. Assuming the newest Sierra 5 suppressors are being manufactured properly, at some point the defects were noticed and corrected and anything made after that time we could assume is unaffected. I’m curious, is there an actual serial number or manufacture date where we know the issue had been corrected? DA has said as recently as a few weeks ago that there is no range of SNs affected/unaffected. |
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USA
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Posted: 7/14/2023 3:03:48 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Princeton: I have a Sierra 5 “in jail” only been waiting for 2 months so far so I’m guessing I’ll be lucky to have it in my hands by Christmas. It’s not my intention to add any hostility to this discussion with my inquiry so my sincere apologies if that happens. Assuming the newest Sierra 5 suppressors are being manufactured properly, at some point the defects were noticed and corrected and anything made after that time we could assume is unaffected. I’m curious, is there an actual serial number or manufacture date where we know the issue had been corrected? I've been approved, but it's 10 months going now. If it's not being retroactively RMAed, I have no idea why it's been in limbo for this long. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 7/14/2023 3:03:52 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Princeton: I have a Sierra 5 “in jail” only been waiting for 2 months so far so I’m guessing I’ll be lucky to have it in my hands by Christmas. It’s not my intention to add any hostility to this discussion with my inquiry so my sincere apologies if that happens. Assuming the newest Sierra 5 suppressors are being manufactured properly, at some point the defects were noticed and corrected and anything made after that time we could assume is unaffected. I’m curious, is there an actual serial number or manufacture date where we know the issue had been corrected? I'm sure the only people who have the answer to that are DA. I haven't seen anything from them about a specific serial # range that's good to go. As someone that's also waiting on a Sierra 5 currently in jail, I'm hoping mine is one of the trouble free ones. I would definitely have more warm and fuzzies about it if they did a recall instead of just shooting it to find out if it's ok or not. That said, I'm not a SME on what goes into recalls with NFA items, and I definitely don't know the ins and outs of running a business that big. I'm not worried about having trouble getting it fixed if I do have problems - it would be annoying, but DA isn't just a fly by night company, so I'm sure this will all blow over in a matter of time. |
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USA
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Posted: 7/14/2023 3:06:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Master_Blaster]
[#4]
Delete
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Posted: 7/14/2023 3:13:31 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By waddlingweezol: I'm not worried about having trouble getting it fixed if I do have problems - it would be annoying, but DA isn't just a fly by night company, so I'm sure this will all blow over in a matter of time. |
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Posted: 7/14/2023 5:46:18 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Green0: How often do you suppose that happens? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Green0: Originally Posted By KM6: If someone walked into your store today with a wad of cash wanting to buy one of every DA suppressor available you'd put the order in without hesitation. How often do you suppose that happens? Yeah, I think it would be exceedingly rare for someone to walk in and buy the entire line, but thats not KM6's point. His point is CSGroup's virtue signaling will disappear as soon as he sees $$$$$$$. Several times I've had buyers purchase a Dead Air .30cal can, a .45 can and a Mask in one transaction.......with cash. They never have done that with Griffin.  |
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USA
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Posted: 7/14/2023 5:53:59 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Master_Blaster: I've been approved, but it's 10 months going now. If it's not being retroactively RMAed, I have no idea why it's been in limbo for this long. You've had a can approved for 10 months and haven't picked it up ? |
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Posted: 7/14/2023 6:43:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: zentradi]
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: Yeah, I think it would be exceedingly rare for someone to walk in and buy the entire line, but thats not KM6's point. His point is CSGroup's virtue signaling will disappear as soon as he sees $$$$$$$. Several times I've had buyers purchase a Dead Air .30cal can, a .45 can and a Mask in one transaction.......with cash. They never have done that with Griffin. This. I would have bought three Dead Air cans at the same time, but I kept telling myself I'll stop after this one, so I bought three Dead Air cans within a month. They all sound awesome and make me jiggly inside when I shoot them. If I had dope money, I would have bought the catalog, but within my circle of friends, we pretty much do because I have several friends who hadn't bought suppressors in years, that went out and bought Dead Air cans recently. I feel bad for people who don't feel all happy when they shoot. For CSGroup, I found a recipe online that sounds really good in case you end up wanting to try it. Ingredients 24 pieces of crow breast meat (no bones) (12 crows) 2 medium onions (chopped) 6 tblsp of oil 5 slices of bacon (chopped) 1 big or 2 small turnips (peeled & chopped) 1/3 of celery root (peeled & chopped) - note: substitute with celery 3 tblsp wet mustard 1 tblsp lemon juice salt, pepper to taste dash of paprika 2 bay leaves 2 juniper berries - note: substitute with allspice 1 tblsp Majorjam (crushed) 1 heaping tblsp of mayonnaise water Preparation Saute onions and bacon in oil until golden. Add meat, spices and saute some more. Add vegetables and the rest of the ingredients except mayonnaise. Add enough water to keep the meat almost covered. Simmer slowly, adding water as it evaporates. In about 3 hours you will see that the meat is soft enough to cut with a fork. Take the meat out and place on heated platter or dish to keep warm. Remove the bay leaf and put all the gravy (about 2 cups) in a blender and blend. When thoroughly blended, add mayonnaise and blend shortly. Add gravy to meat and serve over rice with a winter salad |
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USA
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Posted: 7/14/2023 6:57:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: StrikeEagle15]
[#9]
I own dead airs whole lineup minus the Wolverine. Plus many duplicates. They work, sound good, meter good and have good features. I always use them as a baseline to test other cans against.
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Posted: 7/14/2023 6:59:00 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: Yeah, I think it would be exceedingly rare for someone to walk in and buy the entire line, but thats not KM6's point. His point is CSGroup's virtue signaling will disappear as soon as he sees $$$$$$$. Several times I've had buyers purchase a Dead Air .30cal can, a .45 can and a Mask in one transaction.......with cash. They never have done that with Griffin. It didn't make sense to attack a dealer for having a commitment to looking out for the downrange interests of his customers. |
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Posted: 7/14/2023 7:08:20 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Green0: It didn't make sense to attack a dealer for having a commitment to looking out for the downrange interests of his customers. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Green0: Originally Posted By DogtownTom: Yeah, I think it would be exceedingly rare for someone to walk in and buy the entire line, but thats not KM6's point. His point is CSGroup's virtue signaling will disappear as soon as he sees $$$$$$$. Several times I've had buyers purchase a Dead Air .30cal can, a .45 can and a Mask in one transaction.......with cash. They never have done that with Griffin. It didn't make sense to attack a dealer for having a commitment to looking out for the downrange interests of his customers. It wasn't an attack in any sense of the word. |
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USA
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Posted: 7/15/2023 12:11:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Master_Blaster]
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bully13: You've had a can approved for 10 months and haven't picked it up ? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bully13: Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: I've been approved, but it's 10 months going now. If it's not being retroactively RMAed, I have no idea why it's been in limbo for this long. You've had a can approved for 10 months and haven't picked it up ? So I just received email notification (7/14) that my F4 has been approved. |
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Posted: 7/15/2023 8:07:22 AM EDT
[#13]
Mine is heading back.
Less that 250 rnds it’s a maraca, blast baffle loose. Serial is between 00850-00900 |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 7/15/2023 8:43:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11B3XCIB]
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: Yeah, I think it would be exceedingly rare for someone to walk in and buy the entire line, but thats not KM6's point. His point is CSGroup's virtue signaling will disappear as soon as he sees $$$$$$$. Several times I've had buyers purchase a Dead Air .30cal can, a .45 can and a Mask in one transaction.......with cash. They never have done that with Griffin. If I bought a Sierra 5 from a dealer and they didn’t tell me there was a near 50% chance it could fail, that would be the last product I bought from them |
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Posted: 7/15/2023 10:10:09 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 11B3XCIB: If I bought a Sierra 5 from a dealer and they didn’t tell me there was a near 50% chance it could fail, that would be the last product I bought from them You are conflating two arguments. He was saying he would not sell this can which is very different than telling a customer of the Sierra5 issues and being willing to still sell that customer the can. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 7/15/2023 10:50:12 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 103M95G: Mine is heading back. Less that 250 rnds it’s a maraca, blast baffle loose. Serial is between 00850-00900 But but…you had a 99% chance it was good to go! I don’t understand???? Jk.  Now you got to wait for it to get fixed….like enjoying a form4 process all over again. |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 7/15/2023 12:45:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11B3XCIB]
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WVUSIG: You are conflating two arguments. He was saying he would not sell this can which is very different than telling a customer of the Sierra5 issues and being willing to still sell that customer the can. As a buyer, it’s all relative to the same brand. Because you think it’s separate doesn’t mean I do. Should I go back and quote a different post to make it better for you? Would that make you happy? And my “argument” is on topic to this thread anyhow |
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Posted: 7/15/2023 8:53:28 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 11B3XCIB: As a buyer, it’s all relative to the same brand. To an ignorant buyer maybe. But read post#5..........ALL BRANDS will have issues. I'll continue to recommend Dead Air because their product is a good value. |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 7/15/2023 10:13:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11B3XCIB]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: To an ignorant buyer maybe. But read post#5..........ALL BRANDS will have issues. I'll continue to recommend Dead Air because their product is a good value. LOL ignorant? These guys are at 3+ months (with no ETA and no comms) on turnaround for brand new cans. How is that not reflection of the brand itself?? Doesn’t make me feel warm and fuzzy about the DA can I have if it has issues. You would sell someone a Sierra 5 without mentioning the possible failure it might experience and what to look out for before they buy it? I can’t imagine many first time buyers hearing 1) you have to wait 180 days to clear 2) when it clears, it has a 50% chance of a rattle or catastrophic failure after XX amount of rounds 3) you’ll get an RMA quickly but after that, turnaround time is anyone’s guess, and have them still go through with the purchase. If you’re saying a buyer is ignorant for turning down that offer… |
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Posted: 7/15/2023 10:19:45 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 11B3XCIB: LOL ignorant? These guys are at 3+ months (with no ETA and no comms) on turnaround for brand new cans. How is that not reflection of the brand itself?? Doesn’t make me feel warm and fuzzy about the DA can I have it is has issues. You would sell someone a Sierra 5 without mentioning the possible failure it might experience and what to look out for before they buy it? I can’t imagine many first time buyers hearing 1) you have to wait 180 days to clear 2) when it clears, it has a 50% chance of a rattle or catastrophic failure after XX amount of rounds 3) you’ll get an RMA quickly but after that, turnaround time is anyone’s guess, AND THEN STILL BUYING. The S5 may be having issues but the nomad family has been solid since it's release. Saying the entire brand is garbage is a lazy blanket statement |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 7/15/2023 10:25:32 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hoody2shoez: The S5 may be having issues but the nomad family has been solid since it's release. Saying the entire brand is garbage is a lazy blanket statement I never said the brand was garbage. It’s how this situation is being handled is what’s giving me pause. |
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Posted: 7/15/2023 10:44:10 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 11B3XCIB: I never said the brand was garbage. It’s how this situation is being handled is what’s giving me pause. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 11B3XCIB: Originally Posted By hoody2shoez: The S5 may be having issues but the nomad family has been solid since it's release. Saying the entire brand is garbage is a lazy blanket statement I never said the brand was garbage. It’s how this situation is being handled is what’s giving me pause. you may not have but several other people have suggested it. |
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WLF
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Posted: 7/16/2023 11:04:14 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hoody2shoez: The S5 may be having issues but the nomad family has been solid since it's release. Saying the entire brand is garbage is a lazy blanket statement Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hoody2shoez: Originally Posted By 11B3XCIB: LOL ignorant? These guys are at 3+ months (with no ETA and no comms) on turnaround for brand new cans. How is that not reflection of the brand itself?? Doesn’t make me feel warm and fuzzy about the DA can I have it is has issues. You would sell someone a Sierra 5 without mentioning the possible failure it might experience and what to look out for before they buy it? I can’t imagine many first time buyers hearing 1) you have to wait 180 days to clear 2) when it clears, it has a 50% chance of a rattle or catastrophic failure after XX amount of rounds 3) you’ll get an RMA quickly but after that, turnaround time is anyone’s guess, AND THEN STILL BUYING. The S5 may be having issues but the nomad family has been solid since it's release. Saying the entire brand is garbage is a lazy blanket statement Other than the Nomads with bad welds that fired down range, right? |
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UT, USA
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Posted: 7/16/2023 11:44:08 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ian187: Other than the Nomads with bad welds that fired down range, right? Like, no other manufacturer that welds hasn't had some that break? I've seen more Trash Pandas and what-not form Q break on the internet. I though for sure you'd be on that train knowing your history with him. You're talking an occasional weld from an operator manually lining up a laser slightly off center of the seam. It was pretty random and we worked to to ensure it's been greatly minimized through increased process controls. For those familiar with 6 Sigma processes, this is now as close as it gets to that kind of quality. We've sold tens of thousands of those and there have indeed been some that have showed up online with a weld breakage, but the number is relatively small considering that the Nomad is one of the best selling cans ever. Figure, around 45,000 units x 10 welds on average (normal plus long configurations) and you have 450,000 welds. So to recap, you've seen a few broken welds on the internet out of close to half a million welds performed. I know it's cool to shit on Dead Air right now and push a narrative that we're ignoring the Sierra issues. But we're not. It takes a bit of time to work this and you'll see things are made right. For every product quality issue we've ever had, we've attacked it and made it better and we'll do the same with Sierra 5. You'll see more info coming out, but I'm not in a place to be that mouthpiece. |
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Posted: 7/16/2023 11:48:08 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ian187: Other than the Nomads with bad welds that fired down range, right? Plural? |
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WLF
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Posted: 7/16/2023 12:01:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ian187]
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mageever: Like, no other manufacturer that welds hasn't had some that break? I've seen more Trash Pandas and what-not form Q break on the internet. I though for sure you'd be on that train knowing your history with him. You're talking an occasional weld from an operator manually lining up a laser slightly off center of the seam. It was pretty random and we worked to to ensure it's been greatly minimized through increased process controls. For those familiar with 6 Sigma processes, this is now as close as it gets to that kind of quality. We've sold tens of thousands of those and there have indeed been some that have showed up online with a weld breakage, but the number is relatively small considering that the Nomad is one of the best selling cans ever. Figure, around 45,000 units x 10 welds on average (normal plus long configurations) and you have 450,000 welds. So to recap, you've seen a few broken welds on the internet out of close to half a million welds performed. I know it's cool to shit on Dead Air right now and push a narrative that we're ignoring the Sierra issues. But we're not. It takes a bit of time to work this and you'll see things are made right. For every product quality issue we've ever had, we've attacked it and made it better and we'll do the same with Sierra 5. You'll see more info coming out, but I'm not in a place to be that mouthpiece. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mageever: Originally Posted By ian187: Other than the Nomads with bad welds that fired down range, right? Like, no other manufacturer that welds hasn't had some that break? I've seen more Trash Pandas and what-not form Q break on the internet. I though for sure you'd be on that train knowing your history with him. You're talking an occasional weld from an operator manually lining up a laser slightly off center of the seam. It was pretty random and we worked to to ensure it's been greatly minimized through increased process controls. For those familiar with 6 Sigma processes, this is now as close as it gets to that kind of quality. We've sold tens of thousands of those and there have indeed been some that have showed up online with a weld breakage, but the number is relatively small considering that the Nomad is one of the best selling cans ever. Figure, around 45,000 units x 10 welds on average (normal plus long configurations) and you have 450,000 welds. So to recap, you've seen a few broken welds on the internet out of close to half a million welds performed. I know it's cool to shit on Dead Air right now and push a narrative that we're ignoring the Sierra issues. But we're not. It takes a bit of time to work this and you'll see things are made right. For every product quality issue we've ever had, we've attacked it and made it better and we'll do the same with Sierra 5. You'll see more info coming out, but I'm not in a place to be that mouthpiece. Nice deflection. This thread isn't about other manufacturers. If you want to start a thread about Q we can discuss their faults too. It's easy to claim 6 Sigma when you don't have to prove it. I'd be pretty shocked if DA was remotely close to 3 Sigma. Again, you don't have to prove it so you can just claim anything. Given what's available publicly 6 Sigma pretty unbelievable. |
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Posted: 7/16/2023 12:53:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: NesralG]
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NesralG: S/N SR5026XX Voted no issues,🤞 Just shy of 300 rounds down the tube. Subscribed and will update. @NC_Parrothead Dumped another 200 rounds thru mine yesterday, max load of H335 and Hornady 55gr fmj pills. Still holding strong. That puts me at 500-ish rounds. Good to see this thread is staying on track   Attached File |
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Posted: 7/16/2023 12:53:35 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 11B3XCIB: I never said the brand was garbage..... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 11B3XCIB: I never said the brand was garbage..... True, you didn't use the word garbage, but you wrote: As a buyer, it’s all relative to the same brand. Because you think it’s separate doesn’t mean I do.. That seems to imply you think the Sierra 5 issues are indicative of the entire brand. That's ignorant. |
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Posted: 7/16/2023 3:26:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Green0]
[#29]
I read this as an explanation of six sigma in a Google search:
”The goal of Six Sigma is to achieve a level of quality that is nearly perfect, with only 3.4 defects per million opportunities.” This statement makes invoking this just ridiculous. People on this forum who are customers have reported 40-47% with this one product. Thats like nearly one in two defective. I recently saw a customer saying two out of three of his products were defective and that guy was just a random customer on this forum. 40% on the low side of this poll is mathematically 400,000 defects per million. Thats 117,647 times the objective number. |
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WLF
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Posted: 7/16/2023 3:54:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ian187]
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Green0: I read this as an explanation of six sigma in a Google search: ”The goal of Six Sigma is to achieve a level of quality that is nearly perfect, with only 3.4 defects per million opportunities.” This statement makes invoking this just ridiculous. People on this forum who are customers have reported 40-47% with this one product. Thats like nearly one in two defective. I recently saw a customer saying two out of three of his products were defective and that guy was just a random customer on this forum. 40% on the low side of this poll is mathematically 400,000 defects per million. Thats 117,647 times the objective number. If you type Sandman into the search on r/NFA you'll get a list of user reported defect threads. DA hasn't produced enough silencers total to have that many defects and still be 6 Sigma... Let alone just the Nomad with 40k units (Todd's claim) and even one known defect. If DA is Six Sigma, it's by accident. Further, to have such a large QC breach, they likely have no QA. All of this is my opinion, I do not know DA's production or defect totals. My experience, however , is internally known defects almost always exceed publicly known defects. |
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Posted: 7/16/2023 4:29:48 PM EDT
[#31]
This sucks but third party warranty is usually like this. Dead Air warranty is for life. I wonder if they actually have to pay out of pocket to have KGM repair the cans or make a replacement.
KGM’s line is probably knocking out new product contract runs. I doubt they are set up for high volume repair or going to stop and re-tool to make replacements while the new products sit in bins. |
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Posted: 7/16/2023 4:53:55 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GutWrench: This sucks but third party warranty is usually like this. Dead Air warranty is for life. I wonder if they actually have to pay out of pocket to have KGM repair the cans or make a replacement. KGM's line is probably knocking out new product contract runs. I doubt they are set up for high volume repair or going to stop and re-tool to make replacements while the new products sit in bins. |
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USA
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Posted: 7/16/2023 5:05:42 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ian187: If you type Sandman into the search on r/NFA you'll get a list of user reported defect threads. DA hasn't produced enough silencers total to have that many defects and still be 6 Sigma... Let alone just the Nomad with 40k units (Todd's claim) and even one known defect. If DA is Six Sigma, it's by accident. Further, to have such a large QC breach, they likely have no QA. All of this is my opinion, I do not know DA's production or defect totals. My experience, however , is internally known defects almost always exceed publicly known defects. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ian187: If you type Sandman into the search on r/NFA you'll get a list of user reported defect threads. DA hasn't produced enough silencers total to have that many defects and still be 6 Sigma... Let alone just the Nomad with 40k units (Todd's claim) and even one known defect. If DA is Six Sigma, it's by accident. Further, to have such a large QC breach, they likely have no QA. All of this is my opinion, I do not know DA's production or defect totals. My experience, however , is internally known defects almost always exceed publicly known defects. Rev686 on Reddit is constantly collecting suppressor failure info. In February he posted this chart of Suppressor Failure Rates, showing Dead Air at 2.5% overall and 4.3% for the Sandman specifically (neither of which are the worst for a manufacturer/model). Pictures are more dramatic than words and the posts there gave an impression that it might be higher than that, but less than 1/20 failing doesn't seem too troubling...and we know that a portion of them were the user's fault. Originally Posted By GutWrench: This sucks but third party warranty is usually like this. Dead Air warranty is for life. I wonder if they actually have to pay out of pocket to have KGM repair the cans or make a replacement. KGM’s line is probably knocking out new product contract runs. I doubt they are set up for high volume repair or going to stop and re-tool to make replacements while the new products sit in bins. I'm sure the conversations between Dead Air and KGM have been very interesting. |
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Posted: 7/16/2023 5:28:37 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Green0: I read this as an explanation of six sigma in a Google search: "The goal of Six Sigma is to achieve a level of quality that is nearly perfect, with only 3.4 defects per million opportunities." 40% on the low side of this poll is mathematically 400,000 defects per million. Thats 117,647 times the objective number. Jesus dude, this poll has ~51 responses that are actual data (I wish the 4th option wasn't included). My SN is 16xx and I was a very early buyer. Claiming the 40% of this poll represents the entire market is like going to San Francisco and taking a poll of republican vs democratic. You know good and well that everyone that has a perfectly fine S5 will be much less vocal than anyone that encounters a problem. FWIW I put three mags through my S5 yesterday on my 10.5" SBR as it's the most abusive rifle I own and everything was fine. The second two mags were mag dumps just to see if I could break it:  |
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WLF
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Posted: 7/16/2023 5:36:22 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DDS87: Rev686 on Reddit is constantly collecting suppressor failure info. In February he posted this chart of Suppressor Failure Rates, showing Dead Air at 2.5% overall and 4.3% for the Sandman specifically (neither of which are the worst for a manufacturer/model). Pictures are more dramatic than words and the posts there gave an impression that it might be higher than that, but less than 1/20 failing doesn't seem too troubling...and we know that a portion of them were the user's fault. I'm sure the conversations between Dead Air and KGM have been very interesting. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DDS87: Originally Posted By ian187: If you type Sandman into the search on r/NFA you'll get a list of user reported defect threads. DA hasn't produced enough silencers total to have that many defects and still be 6 Sigma... Let alone just the Nomad with 40k units (Todd's claim) and even one known defect. If DA is Six Sigma, it's by accident. Further, to have such a large QC breach, they likely have no QA. All of this is my opinion, I do not know DA's production or defect totals. My experience, however , is internally known defects almost always exceed publicly known defects. Rev686 on Reddit is constantly collecting suppressor failure info. In February he posted this chart of Suppressor Failure Rates, showing Dead Air at 2.5% overall and 4.3% for the Sandman specifically (neither of which are the worst for a manufacturer/model). Pictures are more dramatic than words and the posts there gave an impression that it might be higher than that, but less than 1/20 failing doesn't seem too troubling...and we know that a portion of them were the user's fault. Originally Posted By GutWrench: This sucks but third party warranty is usually like this. Dead Air warranty is for life. I wonder if they actually have to pay out of pocket to have KGM repair the cans or make a replacement. KGM’s line is probably knocking out new product contract runs. I doubt they are set up for high volume repair or going to stop and re-tool to make replacements while the new products sit in bins. I'm sure the conversations between Dead Air and KGM have been very interesting. 6 Sigma defect rate is .00034%. If DA only made 40k units, they would need to have zero defects to be 6 Sigma. That chart under represents defects and would indicate DA probably isn't even 3 Sigma. The S5 defects probably put DA around 2 Sigma. |
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USA
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Posted: 7/16/2023 5:44:24 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ian187: 6 Sigma defect rate is .00034%. If DA only made 40k units, they would need to have zero defects to be 6 Sigma. That chart under represents defects and would indicate DA probably isn't even 3 Sigma. The S5 defects probably put DA around 2 Sigma. Got it, 6 Sigma rate not demonstrated, just following up with the part about the Sandman and Reddit. |
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Posted: 7/16/2023 5:51:46 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ian187: 6 Sigma defect rate is .00034%. If DA only made 40k units, they would need to have zero defects to be 6 Sigma. That chart under represents defects and would indicate DA probably isn't even 3 Sigma. The S5 defects probably put DA around 2 Sigma. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ian187: Originally Posted By DDS87: Originally Posted By ian187: If you type Sandman into the search on r/NFA you'll get a list of user reported defect threads. DA hasn't produced enough silencers total to have that many defects and still be 6 Sigma... Let alone just the Nomad with 40k units (Todd's claim) and even one known defect. If DA is Six Sigma, it's by accident. Further, to have such a large QC breach, they likely have no QA. All of this is my opinion, I do not know DA's production or defect totals. My experience, however , is internally known defects almost always exceed publicly known defects. Rev686 on Reddit is constantly collecting suppressor failure info. In February he posted this chart of Suppressor Failure Rates, showing Dead Air at 2.5% overall and 4.3% for the Sandman specifically (neither of which are the worst for a manufacturer/model). Pictures are more dramatic than words and the posts there gave an impression that it might be higher than that, but less than 1/20 failing doesn't seem too troubling...and we know that a portion of them were the user's fault. Originally Posted By GutWrench: This sucks but third party warranty is usually like this. Dead Air warranty is for life. I wonder if they actually have to pay out of pocket to have KGM repair the cans or make a replacement. KGM’s line is probably knocking out new product contract runs. I doubt they are set up for high volume repair or going to stop and re-tool to make replacements while the new products sit in bins. I'm sure the conversations between Dead Air and KGM have been very interesting. 6 Sigma defect rate is .00034%. If DA only made 40k units, they would need to have zero defects to be 6 Sigma. That chart under represents defects and would indicate DA probably isn't even 3 Sigma. The S5 defects probably put DA around 2 Sigma. 40,000 fully welded units? |
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Posted: 7/16/2023 6:37:18 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DDS87: Rev686 on Reddit is constantly collecting suppressor failure info. In February he posted this chart of Suppressor Failure Rates, showing Dead Air at 2.5% overall and 4.3% for the Sandman specifically (neither of which are the worst for a manufacturer/model). Pictures are more dramatic than words and the posts there gave an impression that it might be higher than that, but less than 1/20 failing doesn't seem too troubling...and we know that a portion of them were the user's fault. I'm sure the conversations between Dead Air and KGM have been very interesting. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DDS87: Originally Posted By ian187: If you type Sandman into the search on r/NFA you'll get a list of user reported defect threads. DA hasn't produced enough silencers total to have that many defects and still be 6 Sigma... Let alone just the Nomad with 40k units (Todd's claim) and even one known defect. If DA is Six Sigma, it's by accident. Further, to have such a large QC breach, they likely have no QA. All of this is my opinion, I do not know DA's production or defect totals. My experience, however , is internally known defects almost always exceed publicly known defects. Rev686 on Reddit is constantly collecting suppressor failure info. In February he posted this chart of Suppressor Failure Rates, showing Dead Air at 2.5% overall and 4.3% for the Sandman specifically (neither of which are the worst for a manufacturer/model). Pictures are more dramatic than words and the posts there gave an impression that it might be higher than that, but less than 1/20 failing doesn't seem too troubling...and we know that a portion of them were the user's fault. Originally Posted By GutWrench: This sucks but third party warranty is usually like this. Dead Air warranty is for life. I wonder if they actually have to pay out of pocket to have KGM repair the cans or make a replacement. KGM’s line is probably knocking out new product contract runs. I doubt they are set up for high volume repair or going to stop and re-tool to make replacements while the new products sit in bins. I'm sure the conversations between Dead Air and KGM have been very interesting. What if iPhones (similar price bracket) had 4% failure rates? |
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Posted: 7/16/2023 6:52:53 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bradpierson26: What if iPhones (similar price bracket) had 4% failure rates? You shoot 5.56 through an iphone? I need that app. |
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Posted: 7/16/2023 7:04:29 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By zentradi: You shoot 5.56 through an iphone? I need that app. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By zentradi: Originally Posted By bradpierson26: What if iPhones (similar price bracket) had 4% failure rates? You shoot 5.56 through an iphone? I need that app. Sometimes I feel like my wife throws her iPhone at 3k fps 
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USA
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Posted: 7/16/2023 7:21:57 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bradpierson26: What if iPhones (similar price bracket) had 4% failure rates? Sounds bad but perhaps an appropriate analogy would be to count the pictures of broken iPhone screens posted on a similar type of forum as part of the failures. I know that Reddit data isn't going to be super accurate/representative of the whole population of Sandman owners but it's the biggest public sample we're going to get. |
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Posted: 7/16/2023 7:23:09 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bradpierson26: Sometimes I feel like my wife throws her iPhone at 3k fps Fair enough. |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 7/16/2023 7:31:10 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: True, you didn't use the word garbage, but you wrote: That seems to imply you think the Sierra 5 issues are indicative of the entire brand. That's ignorant. Call me ignorant all you want. Are there different people behind the repair of Nomads, Sandmans, etc than the ones behind Sierra 5? Are you telling me they put forth varying degrees of the business behind certain models? To act like it’s somehow a different company is to me, ignorant. |
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Posted: 7/16/2023 7:35:14 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ian187: 6 Sigma defect rate is .00034%. If DA only made 40k units, they would need to have zero defects to be 6 Sigma. That chart under represents defects and would indicate DA probably isn't even 3 Sigma. The S5 defects probably put DA around 2 Sigma. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ian187: 6 Sigma defect rate is .00034%. If DA only made 40k units, they would need to have zero defects to be 6 Sigma. That chart under represents defects and would indicate DA probably isn't even 3 Sigma. The S5 defects probably put DA around 2 Sigma. Mageever didn't claim that. He wrote: For those familiar with 6 Sigma processes, this is now as close as it gets to that kind of quality. We've sold tens of thousands of those and there have indeed been some that have showed up online with a weld breakage, but the number is relatively small considering that the Nomad is one of the best selling cans ever. Figure, around 45,000 units x 10 welds on average (normal plus long configurations) and you have 450,000 welds. So to recap, you've seen a few broken welds on the internet out of close to half a million welds performed. You are counting units, he was speaking to the defect rate of WELDS. |
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Posted: 7/16/2023 7:39:54 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By zentradi: Fair enough. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By zentradi: Originally Posted By bradpierson26: Sometimes I feel like my wife throws her iPhone at 3k fps Fair enough. Look, I respect Todd, and I want DA to succeed I own a sandman and Wolf9, and have a Sierra5 pending. The sierra5 was meant to take 556, never spoke to Jobs but I don’t think and iPhone was - probably meant to be dropped 4’ though. I think 40% from the poll/discussion is horseshit. But even 4% is probably out of any manufacturing quality metric, period. I do have a dog in this fight but I think this subject has been overly dramatic. My Sierra5 lasted one mag dump. We’ll see how it goes upon approval. |
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Posted: 7/16/2023 7:46:05 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: Mageever didn't claim that. He wrote: You are counting units, he was speaking to the defect rate of WELDS. Which still isn't 6 Sigma  |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 7/16/2023 8:03:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JohnnyUtah427]
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bradpierson26: Look, I respect Todd, and I want DA to succeed I own a sandman and Wolf9, and have a Sierra5 pending. The sierra5 was meant to take 556, never spoke to Jobs but I don’t think and iPhone was - probably meant to be dropped 4’ though. I think 40% from the poll/discussion is horseshit. But even 4% is probably out of any manufacturing quality metric, period. I do have a dog in this fight but I think this subject has been overly dramatic. My Sierra5 lasted one mag dump. We’ll see how it goes upon approval. 99% chance it’s good to go right? And PedoJoe got 81 million votes as well….. |
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WLF
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Posted: 7/16/2023 8:26:13 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: Mageever didn't claim that. He wrote: You are counting units, he was speaking to the defect rate of WELDS. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: Originally Posted By ian187: 6 Sigma defect rate is .00034%. If DA only made 40k units, they would need to have zero defects to be 6 Sigma. That chart under represents defects and would indicate DA probably isn't even 3 Sigma. The S5 defects probably put DA around 2 Sigma. Mageever didn't claim that. He wrote: For those familiar with 6 Sigma processes, this is now as close as it gets to that kind of quality. We've sold tens of thousands of those and there have indeed been some that have showed up online with a weld breakage, but the number is relatively small considering that the Nomad is one of the best selling cans ever. Figure, around 45,000 units x 10 welds on average (normal plus long configurations) and you have 450,000 welds. So to recap, you've seen a few broken welds on the internet out of close to half a million welds performed. You are counting units, he was speaking to the defect rate of WELDS. I know what he claimed. DA customers don't buy welds a la carte. I didn't want to make my posts about him personally. Suffice it to say, DA has quality problems across all of their product lines and this is what happens when you use subs entirely. I don't think DA sells enough units to use a manufacturer capable of 6 Sigma. Perhaps DA could use their old relationships to hire SilencerCo as a sub? Clearly KGM is working out worse than Bergarra. |
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Posted: 7/16/2023 8:32:21 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ian187: I know what he claimed. DA customers don't buy welds a la carte. I didn't want to make my posts about him personally. Suffice it to say, DA has quality problems across all of their product lines and this is what happens when you use subs entirely. Just stop |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 7/16/2023 8:32:30 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote Historywe worked to to ensure it's been greatly minimized through increased process controls. For those familiar with 6 Sigma processes, this is now as close as it gets to that kind of quality. I read it as they will be targeting 6 sigma going forward, not that he's claiming it up to this point. Which makes sense since they are now painfully aware of some gaps in the previous process and are hopefully making damn sure those gaps are tightened up going forward. As a sierra5 owner I'm interested in more details, and it sounds like we will get them when the time is right. |
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