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Posted: 1/1/2012 10:54:43 PM EDT
Anyone else shoot this ammo?  I bought a case of it, and only shot about half of it through my Gemtech Multimount and this is what I see so far:  Kinda bummed to see that, but I guess I'll choose something else for my subsonic use. I saw over at silencer talk that someone mentioned baffle erosion with this stuff. Anyone have any recommendations for good 147gr ammo? Was thinking about trying some American Eagle. |
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I had a lot of troubles with that ammo myself.
I now use Winchester Ranger 147gr FMJ. http://www.sgammo.com/product/winchester/500rd-9mm-winchester-ranger-147gr-fmj-ra9147fmj-sub-sonic-ammo |
| YES, Winchester Super-X 147gr brass enclosed base aka WinClean 147gr BEB does cause accelerated baffle erosion. It seems to be only an issue when used on handguns or shorter barrel hosts. I bought 2,000 rounds of this ammo before my can arrived with the plans of preventing lead buildup from the get go, but after researching it I decided to never shoot it through my can. I use 158gr Fiocchi now, as well as Remington UMC 147gr. I am looking to get an SWR Octane 9 HD with a full stainless steel baffle stack so that I can shoot some of the Super-X I have, looks like its a great can. The Multimount had, and may still have, an aluminum blast baffle which will be less resilient to erosion than other cans that use a stainless blast baffle. |
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Winchester (whitebox, BEB, and encapsulated) uses poor quality powders that will bead-blast your baffles with hard particulate matter. Scottsdale Ammo is currently cooking up a 147 gr. load that uses clean-burning powder, is very quiet, and engineered specifically for suppressed use: http://www.scottsdaleammo.com/Subsonic_9mm_147gr_p/09110109147.htm
ETA: Having fully encapsulated ammo prevents lead buildup, but another source of buildup and erosion is powder. Dirty powders can do more permanent damage to a silencer than lead buildup from non-encapsulated bullets, especially on silencers that don't have stainless blast baffles (like the OP's Multimount). Aluminum blast baffles are especially sensitive to erosion, and it's important to select ammo that won't bead blast your baffles with hard particles. ETA 2: OP, the yellow-brown particles at 7-11 o'clock on your picture are the culprit. Seen a bunch of them when I was shooting WWB and WinClean ammo. Looks like they have not only deformed the area immediately surrounding your blast baffle's aperture, but have also scraped away the anodizing in the middle of the blast baffle (at 1-3 o'clock in your picture). They were doing the same thing to the second baffle on my Trident (the blast baffle of which is stainless). |
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Ask Todd Green over at Pistoltraining about it.
He used to be a Sig factory rep. Several LEO departments showed him Sig barrels from training sigs used with that pistol ammo. The rifling was nearly GONE after a few hundred rounds. Ammo used was non-lead ammo just like you pictured above. 2 issues here: 1) the bullet used in the Sigs was SINTERED copper or brass. They might be a cause or 2) LEAD FREE PRIMERS. You may not realize it, but almost all modern primers use LEAD in the priming compound - lead styphnate in fact. The ammo above uses NO lead in the primer. Those primers will only last about 5 years and if you examine the case-size box, it shoulf say "USE WITHIN 5 YEARS" Lead-free priming compound could also be the culprit. |
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Quoted: Would shooting this ammo in a suppressor have the same negative impact? http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=36414 It might... Assuming "CF" stands for Clean Fire - it might use a similar powder to winchesters 'clean' ammo which causes this erosion. I cant say for sure, but I saw some of that ammo and passed it up. Keep in mind, unless you have a can with aluminum baffles you may be good to go. Unfortunately thats why I had to dig a bit to find this out. Lots of people have shot these types of ammo without issue in Ti-rants, and other non Aluminum baffled cans and havent reported any negative effects. Although knowing what I know now, I'd just assume not use any of this type of ammunition. |
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Quoted:
Would shooting this ammo in a suppressor have the same negative impact? http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=36414 It depends on whether OP's erosion problem was caused by: 1) the lead-free primer or 2) a sintered, lead-free bullet. YOUR ammo appears to have a "TMJ" bullet, not a sintered lead-free bullet. The ammo you pictured states "TMJ" - which is the acronym that Speer uses to HIDE the fact that many of their excellent bullets are ELECTROPLTED. Gold Dot? Electroplated. Lawman? Electroplated. Blazer? much of it is electroplated. TMJs from Speer are fine bullets. Sad that Speer is so terrified of the "E" word. Anyway, IF those bullets pictured are just TMJs, then you should be fine - UNLESS the source of the problem is the lead free primer; the package states "CF" or "clean fire." You do know that the ammo pictured is only good for 5 year from the date of manufacture, correct? |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Would shooting this ammo in a suppressor have the same negative impact? http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=36414 It depends on whether OP's erosion problem was caused by: 1) the lead-free primer or 2) a sintered, lead-free bullet. YOUR ammo appears to have a "TMJ" bullet, not a sintered lead-free bullet. The ammo you pictured states "TMJ" - which is the acronym that Speer uses to HIDE the fact that many of their excellent bullets are ELECTROPLTED. Gold Dot? Electroplated. Lawman? Electroplated. Blazer? much of it is electroplated. TMJs from Speer are fine bullets. Sad that Speer is so terrified of the "E" word. Anyway, IF those bullets pictured are just TMJs, then you should be fine - UNLESS the source of the problem is the lead free primer; the package states "CF" or "clean fire." You do know that the ammo pictured is only good for 5 year from the date of manufacture, correct? I assumed this bullet was electroplated like the Blazer ammo. Same bullet as far as I know, maybe different powder from the Blazer line of ammo. I thought the source of the problem to the OP's can was because of the type of powder loaded in the ammo. I don't know. I have a bunch of WW white box 147 grain ammo that I bought five years ago when I built my 9mm AR SBR. I had intended from the beginning to get a can so I bought a bunch of 147 grain ammo when it was still pretty cheap. Unfortunately I think it's the lead free type ammo. It does say "WinClean" on the box. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Would shooting this ammo in a suppressor have the same negative impact? http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=36414 It depends on whether OP's erosion problem was caused by: 1) the lead-free primer or 2) a sintered, lead-free bullet. YOUR ammo appears to have a "TMJ" bullet, not a sintered lead-free bullet. The ammo you pictured states "TMJ" - which is the acronym that Speer uses to HIDE the fact that many of their excellent bullets are ELECTROPLTED. Gold Dot? Electroplated. Lawman? Electroplated. Blazer? much of it is electroplated. TMJs from Speer are fine bullets. Sad that Speer is so terrified of the "E" word. Anyway, IF those bullets pictured are just TMJs, then you should be fine - UNLESS the source of the problem is the lead free primer; the package states "CF" or "clean fire." You do know that the ammo pictured is only good for 5 year from the date of manufacture, correct? It's not the bullet––-it's either the primer or the powder. I had the exact same issue with both WWB 115 grain and WinClean BEB. Winchester uses cheap powders and / or primers across several of its ammunition lines which cause erosion and abrasion on aluminum baffles. |
| I have a Multimount and recently got a case of AE147 (based on the recommendations on Gemtech's website and on silencer-related boards). I've only had the opportunity to fire about 100 rds, but I was disappointed to see erosion like that in the OP's pics (though not to quite the same degree), and the telltale yellow particulate matter (unburned powder) collected in the blast baffle. There is similar erosion on the 2nd and 3rd baffles. This after only 100 rds. Does anyone know if the powder was changed in recent batches of AE147? I'd be interested in hearing what kind of luck the OP has when he tries AE through his can. |
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I wouldn't use that or American Eagle. The blast from the "super clean" was really fine but larger than my reloads. Glock 17 without a suppressor fired at a plain white piece of paper from about a foot away: My white paper test:  American Eagle:  My reload with Universal powder:  The pictures didn't turn out nearly as well but the factory loads left a lot more visible debris inside the blast chamber. The reloads with Universal powder left almost nothing. |
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Quoted: I have a Multimount and recently got a case of AE147 (based on the recommendations on Gemtech's website and on silencer-related boards). I've only had the opportunity to fire about 100 rds, but I was disappointed to see erosion like that in the OP's pics (though not to quite the same degree), and the telltale yellow particulate matter (unburned powder) collected in the blast baffle. There is similar erosion on the 2nd and 3rd baffles. This after only 100 rds. Does anyone know if the powder was changed in recent batches of AE147? I'd be interested in hearing what kind of luck the OP has when he tries AE through his can. *sigh* Dont tell me that  I had emailed gemtech around the time of my OP, and this was their response: Nate, We are in the process of hopefully offering upgrades to the MM9 to the new 2012 version. It utilizes a Titanium first baffle that should stand up to more abuse. We are probably a couple months out on being able to offer this service. We'll keep folks posted via our Blog and Facebook when that service becomes available. Regards, Gemtech Techstaff AJE - Thats a neat test. Have you done this with any other factory loads? Hopefully I can find some loads that work without having to roll my own. ETA: my host is a G19 with LWD 4.6" threaded barrel |
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That was one of the powders I tested. Here is my thread (archived now) http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_20/338572_9mm_reload_chrono_data__with_blast_effect_pictures_____lots_of_pictures.html I don't have my notes with me but here is the picture:  I don't remember the load I used or how quiet or loud it was.
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