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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Gemtech Alpine or outback? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 5/18/2010 7:03:09 AM EDT
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My local dealer is offering me a deal ( I think) on either a Alpine or outback. I am using it on a mosquito/p22/ ar's. Any feedback here would be great since I want to the the paperwork started as soon as possible.
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| All things being equal, I'd go with the Alpine. Everybody tells me that having a sealed can is full retard. Of course, I own an Outback II and have shot several thousand rounds through it with no noticeable effect except that it appears to be just a hair heavier toward the blast chamber end. It's still a very light .22lr can - still lighter than most others and it is still just as quiet. maybe in another 10k rounds or so I'll send it to Gemtech to have them replace the core with all new internals. Having a user serviceable can seems like a good idea but I don't want to take apart the can to scrub lead and carbon every 300 rounds. I would have to do that two or three times in some shooting sessions. |
| they want $350 for the alpine and $330 for the outback, he has a few of the alpines and only one left of the outback, I was thinking since the alpine was the newest design it may be the logical choice, but I was hoping for some feedback if anyone owns or knows a buddy that kinda thing. I want to push the button tonight, but I gotta make a choice today. |
| Alpine is bought and paid for. I could use some advise on the paperwork though.. My dealer gave me all the forms and fingerprint cards, but this is my first nfa item so I could use some help. I believe my next step is to go to my local sherif or police cheif and get fingerprinted then have them sign off on the form 4, correct? I can also go to a local photo shop ( like in the mall) to do a passport photos, I belive I need two ( I assume they are just a duplicate?) Is there anyone else that can sign off, I dont personally know my police cheif or my sherif. |
| Ok, I am thinking the trust. I can name some of my buddies and family as trustees and anyone can then use the nfa items in the trust. Also this appears to be a bit quicker since there is no fingerprint/photo cards involved. I was looking at the quicken will maker, how long does it take to set up the trust? |
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Trust is 100% the way to go. Looks like I'm a little late for the Alpine/Outback II debate. If it helps, I have 2 outback II's and bought an alpine 2 months ago. It's great to be able to clean your suppressors easily.
Edit: It takes about 30-60 minutes to set it up. You'll need to review your local trust laws to see if multiple trustees are allowed (thus allowing multiple people to possess). Double Edit: Congrats by the way =) |
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Trust is 100% the way to go. Looks like I'm a little late for the Alpine/Outback II debate. If it helps, I have 2 outback II's and bought an alpine 2 months ago. It's great to be able to clean your suppressors easily. Edit: It takes about 30-60 minutes to set it up. You'll need to review your local trust laws to see if multiple trustees are allowed (thus allowing multiple people to possess). Double Edit: Congrats by the way =) Cool, thanks. I am confused....looking at quicken willmaker plus and willmaker premium, neither of them mention "trusts"...should I just assume that what I need is in there? |
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I paid $325 for my Outback II, which is MSRP which means I overpaid. The Alpine lists for $425. The Alpine will be slightly heavier and bigger but user serviceable. I think suppression levels are almost identical because they have the same core. ***The ALPINE is still pretty lightweight - but to correct your last statement, it most certainly is NOT the same core. The caged-K of the ALPINE is different than the traditional K of the OUTBACK-II. The ALPINE is a couple dB quieter than the OB2. 
Kel GEMTECH TEAM GUY ARFCOM INDUSTRY DISCLOSURE: Over 9 million children in the U.S. are obese. While shooting isn't exactly a cardio workout, it's a step in the right direction. Like Thomas Jefferson wrote, "...as to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind." In that vibe, if we could only encourage kids to make healthy choices like getting outside and shooting in the nice outside air. And make those choices healthier yet by providing hearing loss through premiere sound suppressor usage. |
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Trust is 100% the way to go. Looks like I'm a little late for the Alpine/Outback II debate. If it helps, I have 2 outback II's and bought an alpine 2 months ago. It's great to be able to clean your suppressors easily. Edit: It takes about 30-60 minutes to set it up. You'll need to review your local trust laws to see if multiple trustees are allowed (thus allowing multiple people to possess). Double Edit: Congrats by the way =) Cool, thanks. I am confused....looking at quicken willmaker plus and willmaker premium, neither of them mention "trusts"...should I just assume that what I need is in there? Trusts have some pros and some cons in my opinion. I guess it depends on your opinions. I have nobody I want to have or use my NFA items without me being there in person with them. I looked at doing a trust for my suppressors but decided against it. You may want to post in your home town forum for some info/help. I have no issues getting the CLEO to sign where I live. You may not have any issue either. Make a call to your local department and ask. They may even have the info on their webpage––mine does. If you choose to use a trust then have a lawyer do it for you. If you want to try and do your own at least pay the lawyer to look over it––this may save a lot of headaches down the road for you if you do not have some basic knowledge of legal speak. I have read a lot of the threads here about trust and there is a lot of false/misleading/wrong/good/great/true info on them but a lot of disagreement over them. Again not saying do not do a trust...just saying do it right if you do and do it for the right reasons. |
| Yeah wow, a little confusing. I just want to shoot the darn thing. This morning I called my sheriff's department, they told me they dont do that and to call my local state police and they even gave me the phone number. So I called the state police and they told me I had to go to my local police department ( my townships). So... I called my township police department ( by the way I am in Delaware County PA ) and they said I have to schedule an appointment between 10 and 4, Tuesday thru Fridays... Who that has a real job doesnt work then? They also told me I had to leave my paperwork with the Cheif so he can look it over at his leasure. That is why I am strongly considering the Trust, but I got off the phone a little bit ago with an attorney and they said the trust is a bad idea since so many of them are done improperly that it just a matter of time before the government dissolves them... and then what...there are a bunch of NFA weapons out there with no real owners? His sugguestion was an LLC, which in itself only costs about $125 from the feds to set up, but he said the majic is in the letter of content, that is why he charges $600 to word everything properly. Very confusing... now my $350 supperessor now costs me $1150 ? That sucks and is not in the budget at this time, and my suppressor would be much cooler on my gun then in my dealers safe. I need some words of wisdom. |
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David created my trust and It cost me 300.00
As far as that attorney...talk to someone else 
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how long ago did he create your trust? he did mine this year but the price was significantly higher. i was going to go the LLC route until i realized that if the state ever raised the yearly fee for your LLC, you could end up spending a ton of money over your lifetime (unless you're old already). also, you have to hold a yearly stockholder meeting, take minutes that must be filed with the state, draft a declaration of incorporation, etc... the trust is a one time fee and it's good forever, nothing more to do unless you want to change your trustees/grantors. if you only plan on owning one NFA item, i wouldn't do either as a thousand dollars is too much to spend on a .22 sup but if you want to own more...i had my trust done to purchase an outback II. i now have two other stamps pending. my trust will get a workout so it was worth it. |
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I know nothing about where you live in PA. Try posting in the Hometown PA page. I'm sure somebody near you has done this before and could maybe give some ideas. They may tell you there are issues with the CLEO in your area. Yes..having to make an appointment during those hours do suck but take a half day off or take a long lunch. Use some of that extra time to spend with kids or wife if you have them. The meeting usually only takes a few minutes and its mostly to see who you are. They then do a short back ground/record check on you before signing the forms. They then either mail them to you or call and ask you to pick them up. The wait can be anywhere from a few hours to a few days or even a few weeks. It all depends on the Depts work load and their views of NFA items. If your CLEO signs, and you have no issues on your records then most of the time there are very few issues in most cases.
For me I have to take all paperwork (minus check) plus a Sheriff Dept form to the Sheriff Dept even though they are 1/3 the size of the local PD. I have to show valid state ID with currant address to lady at the desk. I then go home and wait. Due to the size of the sheirff office, the sheriff does not even deal with them, he has a Sgt or Lt look them over and sign them after record checks are done. They then mail them back. It can take a few days to three weeks. The first one I ever had done, I got a lot of run around. Was told by police officers that the cheifs office signed, then they sent me to the person in the PD that deals with CCW permits. This guy then told me the PD does not sign NFA forms, those are done by the Sheriff office. Went over there and nobody there at first even knew who signed them until I asked the right person and they directed me to the right people. Since then, never had any issues and also found the info on the Sheriff office webpage(Duh) with full instructions on how to do everything. They were not trying to give me the run around, just people did not know what NFA was or who took care of it. |
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I paid $325 for my Outback II, which is MSRP which means I overpaid. The Alpine lists for $425. The Alpine will be slightly heavier and bigger but user serviceable. I think suppression levels are almost identical because they have the same core. ***The ALPINE is still pretty lightweight - but to correct your last statement, it most certainly is NOT the same core. The caged-K of the ALPINE is different than the traditional K of the OUTBACK-II. The ALPINE is a couple dB quieter than the OB2. http://i45.tinypic.com/28kmwc4.jpg Kel GEMTECH TEAM GUY ARFCOM INDUSTRY DISCLOSURE: Over 9 million children in the U.S. are obese. While shooting isn't exactly a cardio workout, it's a step in the right direction. Like Thomas Jefferson wrote, "...as to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind." In that vibe, if we could only encourage kids to make healthy choices like getting outside and shooting in the nice outside air. And make those choices healthier yet by providing hearing loss through premiere sound suppressor usage. Sorry, Kel. I was wrong once before, though. Maybe I need to start getting used to that happening once or twice a year now that I'm getting older. I don't suppose I can get caged K baffles like that when I finally need to send my Outback II in for cleaning, can I? For the OP: sounds like the lawyer is trying to sell you services. I did all my transfers on an LLC. LLCs are through your state, not the feds and they should be inexpensive. Some states require you to do paperwork and/or pay fees to maintain the LLC. In AZ once it is set up you are not required to do anything if you are not actually doing business. You don't even have to file taxes for it. It cost me a nominal one time fee ($50, I think) and some paperwork. You shouldn't need a lawyer to write up anything about what the LLC owns because the can will be registered to the LLC. |
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I paid $325 for my Outback II, which is MSRP which means I overpaid. The Alpine lists for $425. The Alpine will be slightly heavier and bigger but user serviceable. I think suppression levels are almost identical because they have the same core. ***The ALPINE is still pretty lightweight - but to correct your last statement, it most certainly is NOT the same core. The caged-K of the ALPINE is different than the traditional K of the OUTBACK-II. The ALPINE is a couple dB quieter than the OB2. http://i45.tinypic.com/28kmwc4.jpg Kel GEMTECH TEAM GUY ARFCOM INDUSTRY DISCLOSURE: Over 9 million children in the U.S. are obese. While shooting isn't exactly a cardio workout, it's a step in the right direction. Like Thomas Jefferson wrote, "...as to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind." In that vibe, if we could only encourage kids to make healthy choices like getting outside and shooting in the nice outside air. And make those choices healthier yet by providing hearing loss through premiere sound suppressor usage. Kel, Can the Alpine handle full auto .22? |
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Kel, Do you think that if there is a tax promo next year that the Alpine will be on it? I would think that Gemtech would select higher end cans to be on the promo, but I could be wrong. ***You would think right. No, as a fairly inexpensive can, the ALPINE almost certainly wouldn't be on such a high-dollar-discount promotion. As I said in an earlier post along those lines, "We're really nice, not really stupid".  The ALPINE is a great little suppressor with a lot of premium features at it's normal, reasonable price, and worth every penny at MSRP. There's actually hundreds of them that recently shipped out to dealers that put in their stockup orders throughout the first quarter, so I imagine that good deals would be out there right now on dealer's shelves.
As far as some of the technical questions in earlier posts, there's going to be more information, feedback, reviews, etc. coming out on this suppressor soon, and I think people will find it to be positive. On that note, GEMTECH is probably a little unusual in this industry in that I think it's better for us to believe enough in any new product of ours to first make hundreds of them *prior* to promoting and teasing people with it, then have dealers and end-users experience GEMTECH's honest delivery schedules, and then the actual product that stands on it's own merits, and then have it weighed with people's honest opinions... instead of the usual recipe of companies fluffing up some new wunderproduct via shills far prior to it's release, taking pre-paid orders to fund their production, being late in delivery, and then having people let down when they finally receive a frustratingly late, not-as-advertised/underperforming product. Kel GEMTECH TEAM GUY ARFCOM INDUSTRY DISCLOSURE: Like many life behaviors, people often bond through shared co-miseration and complaining to start conversations through uncomfortable situations ("Boy, this rain/airplane food/stuck waiting in line/etc. sure sucks, huh?"). While no one really enjoys a happily whistling dork whistling through adversity, but you've got to consider: Is it of any benefit to be complaining all the time as opposed to trying to change things for the better? Or at least trying to find something positive to focus on? I recall one of Henry Rollins great little vignettes ("Decoration") of a person in an airport, frustrated with some common situation, unloading on an airline employee... he doesn't get what he wants, doesn't really leave a mark on the world around him but makes a lot of noise while passing through it. He in a sense decorates the world around him with anger and attitude without accomplishing anything. It's a cute story, and worth finding to listen to. 
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| Looks to be an interesting can for sure. I wonder if Gemtech will offer a SS or a titanium version of the can for sh!ts and giggles. I guess that a direct comparison would be the Element (in the SS form). I would be interested to see a test that compares the Element and the Alpine. Who knows, Gemtech might even out-perform? |
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Looks to be an interesting can for sure. I wonder if Gemtech will offer a SS or a titanium version of the can for sh!ts and giggles. I guess that a direct comparison would be the Element (in the SS form). I would be interested to see a test that compares the Element and the Alpine. Who knows, Gemtech might even out-perform? For $350 [and in stock locally] there really wouldn't be a reason to worry about a comparison. |
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Quoted: Looks to be an interesting can for sure. I wonder if Gemtech will offer a SS or a titanium version of the can for sh!ts and giggles. I guess that a direct comparison would be the Element (in the SS form). I would be interested to see a test that compares the Element and the Alpine. Who knows, Gemtech might even out-perform? http://www.silencerresearch.com/ |
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I will be reviewing this silencer and the G522 for a magazine article release in small arms review as soon as one of my meters comes back from recalibration. I will test on three pistol hosts, a 10/22 and a bolt action 22. The G5 will be tested on an AR15/M16 with Ceiner kit I think plus the 10/22. I will double meter each gunshot (ear and reference location). Both silencers will also be in the next huge 22LR shoot out where I usually test over 30 cans in one day. Not sure when this will occur, but it will be this year sometime. 556 testing is up next.
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how long ago did he create your trust? he did mine this year but the price was significantly higher. i was going to go the LLC route until i realized that if the state ever raised the yearly fee for your LLC, you could end up spending a ton of money over your lifetime (unless you're old already). also, you have to hold a yearly stockholder meeting, take minutes that must be filed with the state, draft a declaration of incorporation, etc... the trust is a one time fee and it's good forever, nothing more to do unless you want to change your trustees/grantors. if you only plan on owning one NFA item, i wouldn't do either as a thousand dollars is too much to spend on a .22 sup but if you want to own more...i had my trust done to purchase an outback II. i now have two other stamps pending. my trust will get a workout so it was worth it. Sorry about the late reply Mike, My first stamp came back 11-07 so the trust was drafted in the summer of 2007. Now that I think about it I picked up his card at a gun show. It had a 200.00 off coupon on his card and 500.00 was his fee at the time. So far I have been able to get 2 stamps a year so 50.00 ea has been worth it to me in gas savings alone since I don't have to drive all over town on my day off to get fingerprinted,signatures ect. |
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. Sorry about the late reply Mike, My first stamp came back 11-07 so the trust was drafted in the summer of 2007. Now that I think about it I picked up his card at a gun show. It had a 200.00 off coupon on his card and 500.00 was his fee at the time. So far I have been able to get 2 stamps a year so 50.00 ea has been worth it to me in gas savings alone since I don't have to drive all over town on my day off to get fingerprinted,signatures ect. thanks for the reply. his fee as of 2010 is $600. not sure if there is a price difference based on your state. i don't live in FL so i assume he has to charge more to have a WI lawyer sign off and make sure the trust abides by my states laws. i think it's worth it. i've got one stamp already and 2 waiting ATF approval. the fact that there are no more fees and it will last my lifetime (hopefully 40 more years) is nice. now if i could only afford a registered receiver...$15K is a bit out of my price range right now. |
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Alpine here also. Looks like a nice can.
It will be my only can, so there will be no ability to compare with any others, but I'll be glad to give thoughts and post a vid. Hosts so far will be a Buckmark Camper Whisper and a 10/22 with 16" HiDesertDog fluted threaded barrel. CLEO sign off: 5/19 Forms sent: 5/20 Forms rcvd: 5/22 |
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Lucky you...at least you were able to send in your forms...still waiting on form 3 and it to reach my dealer. Been 2 months since order was placed. For an Alpine or something else? My dealer ordered an Alpine for me from Gemtech on 4/30 and I had my grubby paws on it on 5/31 (still can't take it home, though). |
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"We're really nice, not really stupid"[/span] I wanna refute the "not really stupid" part, Kel - I've seen you stand out in the opressive Oklahoma summer heat and humidity, sweating like a pig, to demo cans for customers (what kind of dummy does something like that? ).
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Lucky you...at least you were able to send in your forms...still waiting on form 3 and it to reach my dealer. Been 2 months since order was placed. For an Alpine or something else? My dealer ordered an Alpine for me from Gemtech on 4/30 and I had my grubby paws on it on 5/31 (still can't take it home, though). It is an Alpine. I ordered it end of April. Dealer says it still has not come in. I'm thinking the dealer waited to place the order until they got around to it. I'll wait a another week or two before I really start getting upset. |
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I wanna refute the "not really stupid" part, Kel - I've seen you stand out in the opressive Oklahoma summer heat and humidity, sweating like a pig, to demo cans for customers (what kind of dummy does something like that? ).
***What kind of dummy would do that? They call them "Okies". Kel (former Broken Arrow, Oklahoma resident, so I can get away with that) GEMTECH TEAM GUY |
| is the "Caged K" baffle in the Alpine kind of an answer Silcencerco's Sparrow design of making it easier to disassemble when really gunked up? I would think you couldn't copy the Sparrow design as it would be patented but this is ya'lls solution to that problem.... |
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Congrats!!! I'm awaiting the magic call too, shouldn't be much longer.
Don't have the answer to the Mosquito issue, you may want to read this thread on the Sig forum where they discuss it: http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/380105858/m/9300037802 |
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Bill metered the Alpine @ NFATalk on the 15th, here are the results at 1m using CCI SV (30 shot strings):
CZ452 American 16": 115.7dB Ruger 22/45 with Pac-Lite 4.5": 120.4dB Outback II results from an earlier test using CCI SV (30 shot string): CZ452 American 16": 117.06dB Ruger 22/45 with Pac-Lite 4.5": 114.43dB There is some variance I'm sure, since the two different suppressors were tested on different days, but it gives you an idea anyway. On a side note, the tone of the Alpine is quite pleasant IMHO. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Gemtech Alpine or outback? (Page 1 of 2)
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