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Posted: 12/28/2007 5:12:44 AM EDT
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Maybe you knowledgeable gents could school me on suppressor blow back control techniques. I have a 16" RRA Entry Tactical that I run a Surefire FA556AR on and while it functions flawlessly, it is extremely filthy. I even get gunk blown back into my magazines. A partner of mine suggested I run a 9mm buffer in my carbine. Would this help? |
No. Pretty much your only options are the GasBuster (add a little silicone) or the Battlecloth "Blast Guard" thingy. |
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The Battlecloth Blast Guard works great except it is a PITA if you need to use the charging handle, you have to remove it, hold on to it, charge then reinstall. For someone on the bench its great, but in competition or in the field I say pass and deal with the gas. My SPECWAR2 isn't as bad as others but you just get used to it. GASBUSTER charging handles doesn't change the amount of gas I get back in the face when using my SPECWAR2. YMMV -TS |
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If your concern is filthy mags there is nothing to be done. I have an SPR/M4 which is also a back over the barrel design and like your can will have reduced blow back. I still get filth in my upper and in my mags but not the puff of gas blowing through my charging handle slot and into my face. I think a lot of people underestimate the amount of blowback a suppressor generates. Imagine if you had a non backover the barrel design with even more blowback. Consider yourself lucky. |
| Thanks for the help everyone. It's my first suppressor and I really didn't expect all that gunk blown back into my mags and coating my ammo. I guess it's no big deal if it doesn't hinder operation it just means more frequent cleaning. GreenO I may try your suggestions one at at time to see if they reduce the blowback without reducing the reliability of my rifle. I appreciate your input. This is a fighting rifle so I will not be adding an adjustable gas block. Just one more thing that I might F up and cause myself a world of hurt. |
I understand piston uppers are loud but dont have one to confirm this. |
I run an LMT enhanced carrier with a 9mm buffer and it runs 100% with my 16" barrel and Surefire FA556AR-BK. Blowback is minimal and I don't have a PRI gasbuster. |
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As a first time suppressor owner I was surprised also. My RRA has a tactical latch charging handle and deflects the blow back much like a Gasbuster (I didn't feel blowback in my face). I am considering a PWS conversion to piston operation. I am not planning to remove the suppressor anytime soon. Maybe the LMT carrier makes more sense than going to piston operation. Falar, Is this the carrier? LMT : 5.56, Enhanced S/A Bolt Carrier Group item # L7XA3 |
That is the semiauto version, I purchased the full auto version. Also you might want to save a few bucks and just get the carrier because the carrier is what vents off additional gas. I bought the whole BCG that includes the "enhanced bolt" but the bolt won't help any with blowblack. I do find it makes cleaning much easier due to the coating which is pretty nice considering the extra fouling caused by firing supressed. It is supposed to aid in extraction as well, all I can say is that my brass ejects with authority. I couldn't tell you if it is truly better than a standard bolt extraction wise. What is your barrel length and gas port location? The enhanced carrier is designed for 14.5-16" carbines but has been reported to work with 18" mid lengths as well. |
| I should also clarify that I am still getting plenty of blowback. My magazines are being fouled and my bolt gets fouled quickly. However, I'm not really having a whole lot of gas coming back through the receiver into my face. Plenty of it is going into my chamber and out my ejection port. There was a thread in the AR Discussions forum where a guy claimed that unsuppressed his LMT carrier ran extremely clean and suppressed it ran as clean as an unsuppressed rifle with a standard carrier. I've found that to be an overstatement and don't want to add to the myth. |
This is not true... my LWRC sounds like every other AR I have heard. I MIGHT say it was more quiet but that would be stretching it. Its essentially the same. Other pistons will be different. As for the reccomendation of getting one to reduce gas blowback that wont work as the blowback comes from the chamber. I have an LWRC piston, Gas Buster and a SPR/M4 and the receiver still fills with crud and soot settles into the mags. |
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To get an idea where th blowback comes from simply hold your can to your mouth and blow thru it. Then get a similar bore diameter straw or other object and compare the difference. There is little you can do about the spray on the internals and the gas in the face cane be mitigated a bit with the suggested devices. I;ve found silicon to be the most economical and effective approach. That and shooting with the wind to your back. |
I understand that blowback comes from from the chamber but wouldn't you agree that with DI, the gas is worse since you are also getting gas coming in from the gas tube which gets dumped in the carrier? (which goes out the ejection port and ends up in your face) Regarding the LWRC uppers, they sound really impressive and I've read that they are self-regulating w/ a suppressor mounted. Have you tried or know the results of ROF changes when you have a suppressor on/off? I'm guessing that if it really is self-regulating then the ROF shouldn't be that drastic when shooting suppressed whereas I've noticed the ROF go up on my DI guns when I add a suppressor. Thanks |
I would have to borrow the PACT timer again to test the cyclic rate with can on but the blowback is still at least 80%+ from the chamber vs the gas system itself. My upper suppressed full auto is not very fast at all even though its a 11.75" barrel but I also use a low back pressure can and use an Enidine buffer. I will test with the H2 buffer and Enidine eventually. |
If the weapon functions "flawlessly" why would you monkey with it? When you shoot guns they get dirty. I run my suppressed 14.5" with Wolf when I am training. It gets about as dirty as it can get. They weapon runs like a Timex. When I am done I clean it and call it a day. The ONLY change I am making to it is adding a "Gas Buster" because shooting without glasses is slightly uncomfortable, and I am not always wearing my Oakleys on patrol. |
Because I want it to run cleaner and I thought some of the suppressor experts could point me in the right direction. For now, I will continue to run the proven set up and save the experiments for another rifle i'm not betting my life on. |
Have you used an MGI RRB? Which is better? Endine? MGI? |
Not much to experiment. Throw an MGI RRB into the gun. It will cycle smoother, and the tungsten weights will delay unlocking so more gas goes out the can and less out the chamber. That much I have tested. RRB+10% CS spring, and you'll still cycle 100% with the can- rounds will strip off the top of a fresh mag more reliably, your weapon will be more controllable, and it will give you less blowback. Pop them in, take a trip to the range on your base and test fire. If it runs, be happy, if not swap back to the standard spring. At this point it should run no problem every time. Suppressor or not, the only real negatives to the RRB are: increased weight, and the little counterweight that makes a little noise if you point the weapon up and then bring the muzzle down to a low ready. It's a better part. The only reason the Army doesn't use these standard is the price being 5-8 times that of a standard buffer. |
I've got a bunch of buffers including those you mentioned. I use them based on the configuration I need. I like the Enidine the best for 9mm. Combine this buffer w/ the weak buffer spring that comes w/ the AAC buffer and I think its the smoothest setup for FA 9mm. However, that configuration is too weak to strip rounds off a full 5.56 mag. I find the MGI too bouncy for FA 9mm especially being since the 9mm is straight blowback operated. For 5.56, 7.62x39 collapsible stocks, I like the MGI the best. I've had the AAC buffers' spring pin shear off on me. Nothing like that to fail on the MGI. |
Can you point me to some ROF results on this? I have yet to see any. I will be picking up a 10.5" LWRC upper from a friend this weekend to borrow to do some testing. I will be using it in FA w/ and w/o a muzzle suppressor attached. I've got an old Gemtech Predator (basically a thread mounted Halo, no longer made). I may have access also to an AWC Raider, Gemtech M4-02, SWR Specwar the same day when I do the testing. Actually, now that I'm thinking about it. I think Gemtech doesn't warrant their 5.56 cans on barrels shorter than 11.5"....Hmmm..... I don't know what they would think about me mounting one to the 10.5" LWRC upper. I have a Pact MKIV timer which does the ROF calculations. Actually, I have two other friends w/ timers so I hope to have all of them running at the same time to be extra sure of consistency. I will be using LC SS109 ammo. I will be using an H2 buffer since that is what LWRC provides w/ this upper (I think). I also have an Ares 2nd Gen GSR-35 that I'm going to compare as well. I have been told that their 2nd Gen is also self regulating. I will be testing that on a BM 11.5" since I don't have a 10.5" to compare against to the LWRC 10.5". I think that will be close enough. Probably won't get the time to do the testing till the following weekend though. Unless someone else already has this information then I can just play instead. |
| I tested the MGI and Enidine on my LWRC. It is very sensitive to buffer and spring weights and what applies to DI does not translate to that piston set up. The Enidine and MGI had near identical rates of fire (within like 10 RPM) but the Enidine had a very slight edge in recoil. In a DI weapon the MGI is always going to perform better for recoil and ROF. If you put a 9mm buffer in a DI rifle you get a bit less felt recoil than an H2 and an H2 less than H, etc. If I swap my Endine for a 9mm I get a LOT more recoil... more than with the H2 as well. The Enidine is close to H2 weight. The MGI close to 9mm weight. LWRC reccomends H2 buffer weight and the +10% Wolff spring for a reason. Thats what all complete rifles, uppers, and conversions come with. LWRC no longer reccomends the Enidine because they had an issue with over hardened piston shafts snapping in half. I beleive that issue is now resolved but you never know... I run one anyway and have over 1500 rounds on it with no issues and I bought it used so it had been shot more before that. |
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