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7/14/2006 5:23:47 PM EDT
Is it a good idea to run an H2 or H3 buffer on a 16" AR with a suppressor?
7/15/2006 5:39:48 PM EDT
[#1]
I run a H3 in my wife's Noveske 14.5" Afghan and it runs great.
7/15/2006 5:43:36 PM EDT
[#2]
H2 will work well.
7/15/2006 8:04:36 PM EDT
[#3]
I machined my own buffer fom a piece of stainless.....It was free, because I had the scrap and tools...
7/16/2006 4:49:00 AM EDT
[#4]
Carbines (10.5"-16") have higher bolt failures than rifles (20").  Which is why I use heavier buffers in them.  Its the higher pressure and cyclic rate that causes the problems.  Adding a suppressor magnifies the problem.  I was running a Enidine in my wifes Noveske but she had difficulty lock the bolt the the rear (manually) and she liked the H3 better (no harder to lock back than a regular CAR buffer).

Read what Coldblue (LtCol Lutz) says here.
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=288630&page=3


Quoted:

Quoted:

...Just having an aluminum rail/heatsink pressed/clamped tight against the barrel nut does the trick. Case temps are lowered, pressure spikes and cook-offs prevented. A free-floater style handguard that is in contact with the barrel-nut pulls that heat out of the chamber area and cools the barrel. The snap-in type handguards are not in contact with the barrel...they are suspended between the d-ring assembly and the end-cap...snap-ins do not suck the heat out. Additionally, the free-float units made to clamp on the receiver tops are also doing nothing to cool because they are not in contact with the barrel nuts.

This is not my discovery. I just asked some guys why they were buying so many of our handguards and they told me that they had lost way too many bolts during a recent rotation over and that their findings and testing had been what I have forwarded. It makes too much sense. With a well-known snap-in handguard - they got pressure spikes. Same barrel, except with our handguard - they could get no pressure signs.

As Simon data points out, it is not just our handguard, use any that attach to the barrel nut and you should get same results. +/-

Mark LaRue


I am tracking with Mark here, but when I hear "they told me that they had lost way too many bolts" I have to wonder how many rounds they previously had sent down range through our (KAC's) M4 QD Sound Suppressors, or somebody else's?
In our experience trying to optimize preventing cook-off's with different forms of FF Rails, it is the higher cyclic rate imposed on the gun by the higher gas port pressures induced by the sound suppressor that is causing bolts (designed and spec'd for 20" rifle barrel at cyclic rates way below that of a shorter barrel carbine) to fail.
Take a look at the Mk 18 picture thread here on AR15.com.  They are all wearing sound suppressors.  And there are a host of other photos that have been posted here and elsewhere, over time, that provide the same testimony.
We have fired tons of ammo over the years here trying to isolate the bolt problem (and extractor problem) with everything from our "snap-on" RIS and RAS, to each generation of FF (e.g., Mk 11 and Mk 12 types, MRE, RAS-II, several evolutionary designs that remain in-house, and then with our (now) three generations of URX).  Bottom line is, the rail don't break the rifle spec'd/low rpm standard bolt, however, exceeding the recommended rate of fire with an efficient sound suppressor will.
7/16/2006 2:16:37 PM EDT
[#5]

Quoted:
I run a H3 in my wife's Noveske 14.5" Afghan and it runs great.


I like that. so are you saying you put a different buffer in it when she shoots, or that it's hers, but you do all the "running" of it?
7/16/2006 3:47:00 PM EDT
[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I run a H3 in my wife's Noveske 14.5" Afghan and it runs great.


I like that. so are you saying you put a different buffer in it when she shoots, or that it's hers, but you do all the "running" of it?


It's her gun and I'm her builder & armorer.  The H3 stays in it full time.  She couldn't lock it back because the Enidines last 1/2" rearward travel to lock it back is too strong for her.  We didn't buy it as a complete rifle.  It's a RRA lower w/Magpul stock that I built up and bought the Noveske Afghan upper.  This is one of her many guns.

Actually the upper is on the way back to us.  Randall at www.ar15barrels.com fixed it (shorted recrowned and perm. mounted a AAC SOCOM FS'r to it.  We changed from a Gemtech can to a AAC M4-2000.  TTI F'd up the threads removing the Gemtech M4-96 mount.

Here's TTIs **CK UP.  They actually tried to tell me it was made that way.    And they couldn't remove the Larue rail to shorten and rethread.  Me thinks they applied way too much heat to remove the Rocksetted M4-96 FS'er.


This is what it looked like before.  Randall had to cut it down to about 13.5" or so.  I just got the email saying it's on the way back and I can't wait to see how it's come out.





UPDATE:  This is what it looks like now after Randall Rausch worked his magic.  Door to door in less than 2 weeks!




7/16/2006 4:31:10 PM EDT
[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I run a H3 in my wife's Noveske 14.5" Afghan and it runs great.


I like that. so are you saying you put a different buffer in it when she shoots, or that it's hers, but you do all the "running" of it?


What's the problem?  I'm gotm4's wife.  I've been shooting for 23 years.                                                                                                          He has many ARs, and so do I.  He's not some spineless man who has to "justify" spending money on guns like so many around here.  If I hadn't met and married him, I would be building my own guns, but he's a better armorer than I am.  I wanted a very accurate and reliable AR, so he suggested Noveske.  This rifle would shoot .43" groups at 100 meters, before Randall worked on it.  After Randall worked on it, it should be capable of the same or better.
7/16/2006 4:50:14 PM EDT
[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
I run a H3 in my wife's Noveske 14.5" Afghan and it runs great.


I like that. so are you saying you put a different buffer in it when she shoots, or that it's hers, but you do all the "running" of it?


It's her gun my I'm her builder & armorer.  The H3 stays in it full time.  She couldn't lock it back because the Enidines last 1/2" rearward travel to lock it back is too strong for her.  We didn't buy it as a complete rifle.  It's a RRA lower w/Magpul stock that I built up and bought the Noveske Afghan upper.  This is one of her many guns.

Actually the upper is on the way back to us.  Randall at www.ar15barrels.com fixed it (shorted recrowned and perm. mounted a AAC SOCOM FS'r to it.  We changed from a Gemtech can to a AAC M4-2000.  TTI F'd up the threads removing the Gemtech M4-96 mount.

Here's TTIs **CK UP.  They actually tried to tell me it was made that way.    And they couldn't remove the Larue rail to shorten and rethread.  Me thinks they applied way too much heat to remove the Rocksetted M4-96 FS'er.
img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/98098eaa.jpg

This is what it looked like before.  Randall had to cut it down to about 13.5" or so.  I just got the email saying it's on the way back and I can't wait to see how it's come out.
img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/9df19e05.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/a952856c.jpg
img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/30df4d28.jpg

That's ugly.

Is it possible a high round count contributed to metal erosion at the end of the barrel, or is that "tool' marks?
7/16/2006 5:11:07 PM EDT
[#9]

Quoted:


Is it possible a high round count contributed to metal erosion at the end of the barrel, or is that "tool' marks?


Upper has about 700 rounds through it.  No where near HIGH IMHO.  The Rocksett I used melts at 1800 degrees so that means TTi had to get it at least that high, probably even higher to bend the whole threaded portion.  It's a good thing that Randall shortened it.  It was probably very brittle.
7/17/2006 6:56:53 AM EDT
[#10]
Bradd, I'm running an H2 buffer on my M4 (14.5", full-auto) using the M4-2000 and sometimes the SCAR-SD.  No problems.  I'm also running the SOPMOD flash suppressor, which adds less length than the Phantom mount.  So that 14.5" barrel is less than 16" with the SOPMOD.

I'm gonna hit Madison this Saturday if you want to come play.  I can't do the FOP shoot.

See ya.

Mark
7/17/2006 7:55:47 PM EDT
[#11]

Quoted:
Bradd, I'm running an H2 buffer on my M4 (14.5", full-auto) using the M4-2000 and sometimes the SCAR-SD.  No problems.  I'm also running the SOPMOD flash suppressor, which adds less length than the Phantom mount.  So that 14.5" barrel is less than 16" with the SOPMOD.

I'm gonna hit Madison this Saturday if you want to come play.  I can't do the FOP shoot.

See ya.

Mark


IM sent, Mark.
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