Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
Posted: 2/27/2002 9:31:14 AM EDT
Greetings,

Looking at the Bushmaster web site, I saw an interesting flash suppressor called 'the Phantom." Bushmaster says it's extremely effective at reducing flash - fair statement?

Additionally, they'll "permanently attach" the Phantom to any barrel I purchase from them. Technically, as the Phantom is over 2" long, would that make a 14.5" barreled weapon a legal 16"?

Thanks!
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 9:36:42 AM EDT
I would personally go with the Vortex flash suppressor. www.smithenterprise.com/buy/vortex.asp It supposedly is the best at suppressing the flash, although the Phantom is supposed to be close behind.

Yes, it would make a 14.5" barrel a legal 16". But, why don't you think about getting a 16" barrel so you can remove the flash suppressor yourself whenever you want? Plus, you get the better velocity and bullet effectiveness to go with it.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 9:42:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/27/2002 10:17:07 AM EDT by The_Bricklayer]

Originally Posted By AndyTN:
Additionally, they'll "permanently attach" the Phantom to any barrel I purchase from them. Technically, as the Phantom is over 2" long, would that make a 14.5" barreled weapon a legal 16"?



I was wondering the same thing... is it legal to permanently attach a phantom to a post ban???
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 10:25:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Bricklayer:

I was wondering the same thing... is it legal to permanently attach a phantom to a post ban???



It doesn't matter how it's attached. You simply cannot attach a flash suppressor to a post ban AR without having too many "evil" features.

You can, however, on a post ban M1A, provided you don't add a stock with a pistol grip.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 10:48:33 AM EDT
I have a 14.5 bushy M4 barrel with a phantom and I don't see how a vortex could be better because I don't get any flash at all. I chose the 14.5" barrel because I didnt like the "pinochio's nose" look. A 16" barrel with a A2 birdcage hider is over 17" total length, a couple more inches and you have a 20" standard rifle !! IMO, the purpose of a carbine is size and weight reduction and a 14.5 setup has enough tube to get the job done at carbine ranges.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 11:32:13 AM EDT
Spectre - my sentiments exactly! I was wondering if that was the way to go, and you've answered the question for me - so thanks.

I'm putting the M4 upper on my pre ban lower as a "replacement." Now, did I say that PC enough?

Thanks to everyone else as well!
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 11:35:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:
I have a 14.5 bushy M4 barrel with a phantom and I don't see how a vortex could be better because I don't get any flash at all. I chose the 14.5" barrel because I didnt like the "pinochio's nose" look. A 16" barrel with a A2 birdcage hider is over 17" total length, a couple more inches and you have a 20" standard rifle !! IMO, the purpose of a carbine is size and weight reduction and a 14.5 setup has enough tube to get the job done at carbine ranges.



Yeah, well I don't see how a phantom could be any better because there is no flash with a vortex either. Actually, after comparing them side by side with another guys rifle I couldn't tell any difference in flash suppression. I just like the way the Vortex looks better.

To each his own.....
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 12:31:26 PM EDT
I've heard it said that Phantom's four point crown design makes it a formidable stabbing weapon. The issue was also made to me that the vortex open end allows for hanging up on webbing etc. The phantom looks quite nice on my 14.5 and the great Bushmaster pinning and finishing job will make you question wheather it is really permanently attached.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 12:57:53 PM EDT
Shadows, I have heard about the webbing thing too but it really makes no sense after all if it is catching on web-gear you either have the muzzle against yourself or another person. Some may make the point for it getting caught on brush or whatnot though.

BrenLover
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 1:03:54 PM EDT
I don't see how the Vortex can be better than anything after one of the tines breaks off like mine did. I now have a KKF A3 extended hider on my 14.5" Colt and couldn't be happier. It cuts the flash very well and, unlike the Vortex and Phantom, it doesn't kick up dust when I shoot it prone.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 2:43:17 PM EDT
The new Phantom suppressor Bushmaster advertises has no sharp leading edges at the tip anymore, it's just closed and smooth, though the slots's openings still look pretty sharp.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 2:52:38 PM EDT
I cannot imagine using the sharpened Phantom as a stabbing weapon. You would plug up your muzzle with bloody crap and also have a hard time pulling it out of the enemy you just stabbed. The old army trick to get a bayonet unstuck from your opponent is to shoot him off of it. Very bad idea with a guy impaled on your Phantom. Watch-Six
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 2:58:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Watch-Six:
I cannot imagine using the sharpened Phantom as a stabbing weapon. You would plug up your muzzle with bloody crap and also have a hard time pulling it out of the enemy you just stabbed. The old army trick to get a bayonet unstuck from your opponent is to shoot him off of it. Very bad idea with a guy impaled on your Phantom. Watch-Six



That is no problem. Just be sure to shoot as you impale!!

Link Posted: 2/27/2002 3:02:19 PM EDT
I've just ordered a KKF A3 on a barrel I'm having re-worked. Does it work as well as the Phantom and Vortex ie. no flash, or just cut it down?
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 3:49:39 PM EDT
I had the vortex, now I use the Phantom.
I've got a friend who's vortex kept blowing off tines.
After Bushmaster replaced it a couple times, he switched too.
(By the way, Bushy was really nice about it, they made it right, said thay had a bad batch of vortex's..this was a few years ago)
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 4:15:49 PM EDT
I've got a Bushy M4 with Phantom, and like somebody else here stated, I can't see what would work any better. I chose the Phantom because of the worries about the tines on the Vortex, and it made the 14.5" barrel legal. And it looks good.

I know I'm not adding anything here, just thought I'd chime in.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 4:52:16 PM EDT
My pre-ban M4gery has a 14.5" barrel with the permanently-attached Phantom. I went with the shortest barrel I could legally own (without the red tape) in order to have a very compact rifle. Plus, if I ever wanted a bayonet, it would not work properly on a 16" barrel.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 7:51:36 AM EDT
I just built a Bushie M4gery with a 14.5" BM barrel and Phantom FH. I like it.

Interestingly, the tines on the Phantom FH look just like the original "stoll" FH on Austrian STG58s (FAL varient). They were used as a wire cutter; jab the FH across the wire, twist to capture the wire in the slots, & shoot. No more wire...I thought the original Phantom was slotted at the muzzle end for the same reason.

http://imagem.webphotos.iwon.com/1000027302/1000027302_227200215305PM0.2468312.jpg

http://imagem.webphotos.iwon.com/1000027302/1000027302_227200215341PM0.9520184.jpg
qwezxc12
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 8:26:13 AM EDT
Well, I can't speak for the Vortex; but I did take part in an exercise using an old XM16E1 with the three-prong open flashider. During one portion I low-crawled maybe 20 yds. through the countryside of central Oklahoma and when I reached the point where I stood up with my rifle I looked like a chimney sweep out of Mary Poppins. The rifle had gathered all kinds of grass and junk in the prongs of the flash-hider and it looked like a demented whisk broom.

It was only that one experience; but it pretty much put me off open flashhiders.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 9:11:45 AM EDT
Phantom reduced flash more than the vortex in night quals. G36KE with factory vortex fired next to an M4 with the phantom. More flash from the vortex but not enough to make us change. However, the vortex has hung up on some of the thick brush I always seem to be lucky enough to have to make my way through and that alone is enough to make me want to change to a Phantom. Note:The G36KE has a 12.8 inch 1 in 7 twist barrel where the M4 had a 14.5 inch 1 in 9 twist barrel. This is only my personal observation and was not a contolled test.

My personal M4 has a Phantom.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 9:22:06 AM EDT
Does anyone have a picture of one of these barrels (14.5 with phantom or vortex) with a bayonet mounted? The only thing that bugs me about the 16" configuration is that the bayonet fit is weird. Will I ever use a bayonet? I hope not... but I would still like to have one the fits properly. If it works on these barrels I will have to buy one.

Thanks
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 10:20:59 AM EDT
Shadowblade,

If you are worried about putting a boyonet on your rifle you will need the 14.5" barrel.

Also, the diameter of the phantom is not mil-spec (not sure about the new one's offered by Bushmaster. Will know tomorrow when the ones I ordered arrive). The old-style Phantom that is pictured on qwezxc12's rifle will not accept a phantom and you will need a Vortex in order for the bayo to fit over.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 10:25:41 AM EDT
We did a flash demonstration with Vortex, Phantom, KKF A3 and A2 birdcage suppressors with several different kinds of ammo. With our untrained eye, in about pitch dark, we did not notice much of a difference between Vortex and Phantom. KKF A3 worked about as well as the A2 birdcage. Neither the KKF A3 or A2 were as good as the Vortex or Phantom, but were functional.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 10:50:39 AM EDT
why is everyone needing special flash suppressors to get the barrel to a 16" length. correct me if im wrong but i have a 14.5" barrel it is 15" long overall but has .5 of threads extending beyond the 14.5 mark. i have an A1 flash hider and it is 1.750 long. when put together the over all length from the end of the extension to the tip of the FH is 16.25. why is everyone going for way more expensive phantom than the A1 or A2. as far as the vortex i would have that bent or broke in short order. also there would be no question if a bayonet would work.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 10:51:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2002 7:28:08 AM EDT by Shadowblade]
OK, so if I want to use a bayonet I need to set this up with the vortex. If I order a 14.5" upper - is there any legal problem with having it in my possesion (but not installed on a lower) before I get around to having the vortex silver soldered on? I can't afford to do this for quite some time, but it's a sure thing and I want to know what I am getting into...

Thanks

edited to say I just read machineheads post... if this is true then I can just permanently attach an A1 flash hider...

Machinehead, can you confirm? drop a dowel or something down the barrel so it touches the closed bolt, mark the dowel, and measure? From what I heard that is how ATF does it...

Link Posted: 2/28/2002 11:02:01 AM EDT
"I cannot imagine using the sharpened Phantom as a stabbing weapon. You would plug up your muzzle with bloody crap and also have a hard time pulling it out of the enemy you just stabbed. The old army trick to get a bayonet unstuck from your opponent is to shoot him off of it. Very bad idea with a guy impaled on your Phantom. Watch-Six"

Presumably if you have resorted to using a flash supressor as a bayonet, you have run out of ammunition...
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 11:10:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/28/2002 11:11:48 AM EDT by machinehead]
shadowblade,

i just stuck a dewy down her and she measures out at 15 13/16. can someone confirm how they measure the barrel length. looking at my m17s preban it has a spacer of about .25 between the Fh and the lock washer. workin in a machine shop a spacer would be no prob.


HOW IS THE LENGTH OF A BARREL MEASURED?
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 11:12:08 AM EDT
Machinehead,

The barrel is measured by the BATF by dropping a rod down the barrel with a closed and locked bolt in place. Mark it where it meets the muzzle. Pull it out and measure it. It will measure in at 14.5 including the threaded portion if it a factory 14.5" barrel.

You will need to permanantly attach something on the end of the barrel because it is under 16". Pre or post ban doesn't matter, it's just under 16". An A1 or A2 will not get you out to 16" as there is overlap where the FH screws onto the barrel. I do know of one person who used multiple split washers to build it out and then had it welded in place.

-elliott
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 11:23:49 AM EDT
elliott,

well looks like i have a project to do tonight at the shop. off of a quick measurement a .250 spacer with no washer would do great. thanks for the info and keeping me out of trouble.

shadowblade,

if ya want get me the dimensions of a spacer if ya want one and i can make it.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 1:01:30 PM EDT
Wonder what a Phantom would look like on my USP Tactical? MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM..........

Link Posted: 2/28/2002 6:03:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/28/2002 6:04:18 PM EDT by BMANSAR15]
M4A3 - A standard USGI M7 bayonet will fit fine on a 14.5" M4 barrel with the Phantom pictured on qwezxc12's rifle. I've done it myself lot's of times. It just won't fit on the 16" barrels without that silly adapter, but the Phantom's diameter allows the bayonet to fit perfectly. I don't know anything about those new Phantoms Bushmaster is selling now, other than I don't like the looks.

TACT - I came across a picture at one time that, if I remember correctly, was a H&K USP45 Tactical with a Phantom (or Phantom-ish) flash suppressor attached to the threaded barrel. It looked sweet, if I can find it again I'll let you know.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 7:27:43 PM EDT
I have a "Phantom" FS installed on my Daewoo AR-100. The standard M-16 bayonet works just fine on my Colt SP-1 and the Daewoo, the O.D. of the Phantom appears to be the same as the A1 FS on the Colt. Mine is the early style with the 4 extended prongs, looks evil on the Daewoo, which has "ALL" the banned features, folding stock, bayo lug, pistol grip, detachable mag, threaded barrel, etc., which is why it is my favorite 5.56 rifle!
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 7:48:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/28/2002 7:49:31 PM EDT by Duffy]
Here you go (www.ccfa.com/flash.htm):

Link Posted: 3/1/2002 4:52:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BMANSAR15:
M4A3 - A standard USGI M7 bayonet will fit fine on a 14.5" M4 barrel with the Phantom pictured on qwezxc12's rifle. I've done it myself lot's of times. It just won't fit on the 16" barrels without that silly adapter, but the Phantom's diameter allows the bayonet to fit perfectly. I don't know anything about those new Phantoms Bushmaster is selling now, other than I don't like the looks.




Well, that's news to me. I went to 5 different dealers that sold Colt bayonets and we tried everything from the M7, M7 German, to the M9 in every brand and nothing fit. So I had it removed and put a Vortex on, everything fit fine then.

I even talked with Sherluk, Model 1, Bushmaster, and a few others and they all agreed that the Phantom is not mil-spec and is not used by the military for this reason...

I don't claim to be "in the know", just going on what I was told. I was told by all these folks that if a bayonet fits over the Phantom, it is out of spec.
Link Posted: 3/1/2002 6:57:14 AM EDT
You mean my Phantom is out of spec?!?!
Link Posted: 3/1/2002 5:09:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2002 5:14:14 PM EDT by gregw45]

Originally Posted By M4A3: I was told by all these folks that if a bayonet fits over the Phantom, it is out of spec.


Just fit a bayo on a rifle w/Vortex and Phantom. No problems - identical fit. Strange

Yeah, the new style Phantom looks, um ahhh... not as evil as it should.
Link Posted: 3/1/2002 5:54:31 PM EDT
Machinehead, remember that it has to be permanently attached. The BATF would remove the suppressor if possible before measuring. That is why Bushmaster must permanently attach the Phantoms.
Link Posted: 3/1/2002 6:18:36 PM EDT
if you want a carbine then go with a 14.5 inch barrel with a phantom suppresor, for these reasons. 1.the 14.5 is shorter and lighter and that is the main reason for choosing a carbine also it looks like a carbine not a 20 with a inch and a half cut off and short hand guards. 2.go with a phantom supressor permanetly mounted to make it legal and dont worry about not being able to remove it because you wont want to. a bayonet fits correctly on a 14.5 but not on a 16. and it will fit on a phantom suppresor because I have one and have put on it many times no problem.the phantom and the vortex are almost equal as far as hiding the flash but the vortex has that open end that can be bent alot easier and can get hung up in brush and all sorts of things.
Link Posted: 3/20/2002 6:46:01 PM EDT
i just got a phantom and a new colt m7 bayonet in and guess what...it dont work. i need to hone out about .003 of the bayonet hole. the phantom was .010 biggest than my a-1's i have lying around. i would rather not mess with it but should i just buy phantoms till i get one to fit? where did you buy yours that work with the m7? i bought mine from arsenal usa.
Link Posted: 3/20/2002 7:39:07 PM EDT
Hey machinehead,

I have an M9 bayonet if you want to try that out. Email me if interested - I could go for some coffee
Top Top