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Posted: 2/15/2002 7:43:03 AM EDT
What do you put in your AR or AK as home defense ammo?
I like the wichester "whitebox" 45gr hollowpoints going 3600 fps, in my news-paper mushroom tests they fragemented well and pieces penetrated 7-8inches+
Has anyone tried the new Hornady 40grain V-max ballistic tip going 3800fps? I use that bullet in my .270 (handloaded, 110gr, 58.4grains of IMR 4831 going 3225fps) for deer and I love the shock effect it produces. The bullet basically penetrates then implodes and the implosion rocks the deer with schock that I haven't seen form the bigger spire points.
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 8:07:51 AM EDT
When I load up, I use #4 shot Pheasant loads in my 20" Rem. 870.

Pistol ammo is whatever I have on hand. Don't use a rifle. I guess if I did it would be whatever I had on hand for the SKS.
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 9:06:19 AM EDT
The only one that is ALWAYS loaded is the Glock 27 - loaded with Federal Hydra-Shocks.

Others that are frequently loaded are:

Mossberg 500 w/ #4 shot Magnum Turkey loads

H&K USP45 w/ Speer GoldDot
H&K USC carbine w/ Speer GoldDot

AR-15 w/ 30 rnd mag of Ball ammo

Periodically I'll load up the others too.... 9mm, .22LR, .40SW, etc......

Link Posted: 2/15/2002 9:27:05 AM EDT
Silver tip hollopoints in the 1911, and #6 in the 18" 870.
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 9:39:23 AM EDT
Cor-Bon .223 with the Sierra BlitzKing 40 grain bullet, Cor-Bon .44 Mag 165 grain in the Model 29 is my most common ammo.

I have also used the Cor-Bon 200 grain .45 Colt load in a my Taurus 450T and S&W 625.
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 9:14:12 PM EDT
Federal 9BP Jacketed 115 gr HP in my 9mm, M193 and M855 in my AR's.
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 4:02:31 AM EDT
The 100lb bull mastiff is always loaded with whatever she needs, and is my primary home defense weapon. Hydrashocks in my p7 and Federal Tactical 00 buckshots in my 870. I don't use the AR for home defense.
-Tom
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 4:38:31 AM EDT
Core-lokt 30-30 (ouch)

russian 7.62x39 FMJ

3inch mag 15 pellet 00 buckshot

that should handle everything.
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 4:55:50 AM EDT
In my 1911 I use Speer 230 grain Gold Dots. In my FireStar, I use 230 grain Hydra Shoks.
In my 357, I use Gold Dot 124 grain, when my wife is home alone I change that to Black Hills .38 special 124 grain (gold dot bullet) +P+. In my basement I use 9 X 18 with Fiocchi hollow points
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 6:35:59 AM EDT
I use 124gr +P Speer Gold Dot in my 92FS, as my primary go to gun. My AR does have several magazines full of standard SS109, but I would want to refrain from using this, because of the over penetration.
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 6:41:16 AM EDT
XM193 in the M4, Speer 155 GDHP in the G23.
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 6:57:39 AM EDT
Colt M4: Winchester 64gr. PowerPoint Plus HV .223

Glock 32: Winchester 125gr. Ranger-T 357 SIG


My feeling is that neither of these two rounds can be beaten in their respective calibers.
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 7:08:03 AM EDT
M4-55gr. Blitz hollowpoint Urban ammo
870-#4 buckshot
Sig P226-147gr Black Talon
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 7:27:09 AM EDT
75 pound pittbull dalmatian mix. Best watch/attack dog I have ever seen (she has defended the property 3 times with one guy in the hospital for torn up wrist veins). Other than that its a 30 M1 Carbine with ball ammo as its really the only weapon in my home that my small wife can shoulder and fire accuratly.
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 7:56:39 AM EDT
I'm in an apt., so Federal Tac. #4 buckshot in the 12 ga.

and Cor-Bon 135gr in the G27
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 8:01:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Unrepentant_Sinner:
M4-55gr. Blitz hollowpoint Urban ammo
870-#4 buckshot
Sig P226-147gr Black Talon



Very Very nice setup.

Winchester 42 gr. Silvertip BT in my Carbine, Hornady 62 gr TAP BT in my Dissipator, 2 3/4 Winchester 00 buck in the Benelli, the usual gamut of stuff in the handguns.

Oh yeah, here is half of my early warning system.....
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 8:13:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2002 8:14:46 AM EDT by lucasf]
Hydrashoks in the 92fs, 55g TAP in the M4, 590 has a mix of low recoil buck and slugs.
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 9:18:15 AM EDT
I have tried a variety of personal defense rounds on test targets that might simulate a human body. One such test target was a 4x6, I wanted to compare exit holes, so I didn't want to shoot at anything thicker than 4".
Using a Pt99 Taurus in 9mm I first used a standard 115 gr. FMJ load and got an exit hole slightly larger than the entrance hole with a few areas of wood splinters about .500 in length.
Next I went to a 147 gr. FMJ and got about the same size exit hole and splintering.
Next a 147 gr. Winchester SXT, damage was limited to an area of about 1 inch.
Next a 115 gr. Winchester Silver tip Hollow point. I expected a much larger damaged area than I saw but found that damage to the exit area was about 1 inch around with a few splinters about 1.5" in length.
Next I used a Federal 147 gr. Hydra-Shok and damage to the exit side of the 4x6 was about the same as the Winchester Silver tip.
Next I used a Cor Bon 115 gr. +P JHP. The damage to the exit side of the 4x6 was about 2.5" wide and had a lot of splintering about 4" on either side of the damaged area traveling up and down the wood, it also knocked the 4x6 over which tells me that a lot more energy was absorbed into the target instead of traveling out the back.
My choice for personal defense in my 9mm is obviously going to be Cor Bon. I also carry a Taurus Titanium in .45 Long Colt with a 2" barrel, and also loaded with Cor Bon ammo.
I'm sold on Cor Bon for personal defense.
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 9:31:02 AM EDT
Woodcarver:

Not a flame, but if your intended purpose was to simulate the human body, which is 80% water, why did you select wood as a target? Either ziploc bags of water, or gallon jugs of water, or even wet newsprint is a better medium. In the olden days, penetration tests were conducted with 1" pine boards as a medium, but I haen't seen anyone testing that way in a long time.

The only reason for wood penetration testing I can see would be to determine overpenetration through home construction, but in that case, most tests use a series of 2x4s sandwiched with drywall.

Wouldn't the recovered bullet be a better indicator of performance than an exit hole? With the above media, all you have to do is add enough bags, jugs, or wet paper to stop and recover the bullet. Measure the expansion, and the penetration, and you have some valuable data for comparison.

Well, obviously ordnance gelatin and high speed cameras would be optimum, and would give permanent and temporary cavitation, but very expensive and hard to duplicate at home.

Just my .02, YMMV.
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 9:56:13 AM EDT
A Daisy Red Rider BB gun would go through a zip lock bag of water. What would that tell me? hatWoodcarver:

Not a flame, but if your intended purpose was to simulate the human body, which is 80% water, why did you select wood as a target? Either ziploc bags of water, or gallon jugs of water, or even wet newsprint is a better medium. In the olden days, penetration tests were conducted with 1" pine boards as a medium, but I haen't seen anyone testing that way in a long time.

The only reason for wood penetration testing I can see would be to determine overpenetration through home construction, but in that case, most tests use a series of 2x4s sandwiched with drywall.

Wouldn't the recovered bullet be a better indicator of performance than an exit hole? With the above media, all you have to do is add enough bags, jugs, or wet paper to stop and recover the bullet. Measure the expansion, and the penetration, and you have some valuable data for comparison.

Well, obviously ordnance gelatin and high speed cameras would be optimum, and would give permanent and temporary cavitation, but very expensive and hard to duplicate at home.

Just my .02, YMMV.
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 10:28:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Woodcarver:
A Daisy Red Rider BB gun would go through a zip lock bag of water. What would that tell me? I wanted to see what kind of damage would happen to the 4X6 with various loads so that's what I did. Yes it would be cool to get the fired bullet back to see what expansion had taken place.....but that's not what I did this time. The question was what load do we prefer for home defense, I was merely stating what I did and the results and my opinion becuase I thought that someone else might think it interesting. I guess you don't.....Oh well.



Woodcarver:

The idea with ziplocs of water is to take a dozen or so of the gallon size filled with water and place them in front of one another. You can even construct a trough to hold them (even a WOODEN one, but try not to shoot the trough). The idea is to create an inexpensive, easily duplicated medium to simulate human tissue (again, the human body is over 80% water, while containing little, if any wood). This method is generally accepted as approximating human tissue (when multiplied by a mathematical constant), and has been used in many tests by gun writers.

It would be beyond "cool" to test the expansion of a recovered bullet, it would be germaine to the topic, rather than your exit hole dimensions in wood. An appropriate defensive ammunition test would examine penetration and expansion. You discovered neither, since all rounds exited your media, and none were recovered or measured to determine expansion.

I doubt that even your vaunted MAGNUM version of the Daisy Red Ryder will penetrate more than one gallon bag of water, but I don't use the Daisy for home defense against the dreaded wooden beasts.

The question was actually what round you used in a AR or AK for home defense, not what bizzarre/arcane method you used for testing ammunition in your Taurus.

Your opinion that you preferred the Corbon in your handguns was fine, till you attempted to validate your test and method of selection. All I attempted to do was to offer you a method which would actually approximate a relevant human tissue test, but if shooting 4x6s entertains you, please continue.

Guess I struck a nerve, anyway. I bow to your superior intellect and vast experience in killing 4x6s. The next time I am attacked by a wooden man in my home, I will know exactly what round to use, thanks to you.
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 10:34:33 AM EDT
The expansion you got shooting through wood was from frangiblity, that is, the bullet breaking apart.

Hollow points expand due to the hydraulic action of the fluid forced in the open end, and pressing out equally in all directions from the inside.

For trying this at home, fill a cardboard box with old newspaper, magazines, etc. Then soak it with water, allowing time for all of the paper to become saturated. Firing into this wet paper mix will be a more accurate comparison of how the bullet will perform in tissue than your test.

Yes, I have done this. I have also used clay, and other materials. I find the wet newspaper to be as good as any, and easy and cheap.
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 10:45:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
The expansion you got shooting through wood was from frangiblity, that is, the bullet breaking apart.

Hollow points expand due to the hydraulic action of the fluid forced in the open end, and pressing out equally in all directions from the inside.

For trying this at home, fill a cardboard box with old newspaper, magazines, etc. Then soak it with water, allowing time for all of the paper to become saturated. Firing into this wet paper mix will be a more accurate comparison of how the bullet will perform in tissue than your test.

Yes, I have done this. I have also used clay, and other materials. I find the wet newspaper to be as good as any, and easy and cheap.



Excellent suggestion. Wet newsprint is good (and cheap!), and modeling clay allows you to examine the cavitation.

For home defense, depending upon your specific home construction and occupancy, too much penetration may be a BAD thing. I think that was the point of the original post, to get a feeling for what people had selected to avoid the overpenetration which could lead to collateral damage.

The trade off is that a high velocity, more frangible round might not have sufficient penetration to inflict a disabling injury on an intruder, particularly one behind light cover. Conversely, a round which overpenetrates could pass through the intruder, or several walls before coming to rest in another, inintended target.

Always a good idea to study published data, or better yet, test your ammo for penetration and expansion ahead of time.
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 10:56:20 AM EDT
h!
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 11:03:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Woodcarver:
Ouch! What a master of sarcastic wit you are. Next time I see a marauding herd of Zip lock baggies filled with water (you know the human body is 80% water) I'll think of you.




Now, what we got heah, is a failure to communicate!

Some men you just can't reach....

Water, clay, wet newsprint, ballistic gelatin= validated test media approximating human tissue, get it?
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 12:04:49 PM EDT
.223 55gr Ballistic tips. one shot allot of splatter.
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 8:05:18 PM EDT
I use Remington Golder Saber 230 Gr / 45 ACP. Started out with Federal Hydrashock but my gun didn't like 'em. The Remingtons zip right through.
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 8:35:39 PM EDT
What do I use as home defense ammo?

My telephone.

Why, all this talk of using firearms to protect our lives and property is meaningless, since the police will always be there at a moment's notice to protect us, right?

Why would anyone ever need to use a gun? Guns are scary and bad and hurt children. I learned all of this from Dateline NBC and 20/20 on ABC. Don't you guys watch TV?
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 8:48:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SF:

Originally Posted By Woodcarver:
A Daisy Red Rider BB gun would go through a zip lock bag of water. What would that tell me? I wanted to see what kind of damage would happen to the 4X6 with various loads so that's what I did. Yes it would be cool to get the fired bullet back to see what expansion had taken place.....but that's not what I did this time. The question was what load do we prefer for home defense, I was merely stating what I did and the results and my opinion becuase I thought that someone else might think it interesting. I guess you don't.....Oh well.



Woodcarver:

The idea with ziplocs of water is to take a dozen or so of the gallon size filled with water and place them in front of one another. You can even construct a trough to hold them (even a WOODEN one, but try not to shoot the trough). The idea is to create an inexpensive, easily duplicated medium to simulate human tissue (again, the human body is over 80% water, while containing little, if any wood). This method is generally accepted as approximating human tissue (when multiplied by a mathematical constant), and has been used in many tests by gun writers.

It would be beyond "cool" to test the expansion of a recovered bullet, it would be germaine to the topic, rather than your exit hole dimensions in wood. An appropriate defensive ammunition test would examine penetration and expansion. You discovered neither, since all rounds exited your media, and none were recovered or measured to determine expansion.

I doubt that even your vaunted MAGNUM version of the Daisy Red Ryder will penetrate more than one gallon bag of water, but I don't use the Daisy for home defense against the dreaded wooden beasts.

The question was actually what round you used in a AR or AK for home defense, not what bizzarre/arcane method you used for testing ammunition in your Taurus.

Your opinion that you preferred the Corbon in your handguns was fine, till you attempted to validate your test and method of selection. All I attempted to do was to offer you a method which would actually approximate a relevant human tissue test, but if shooting 4x6s entertains you, please continue.

Guess I struck a nerve, anyway. I bow to your superior intellect and vast experience in killing 4x6s. The next time I am attacked by a wooden man in my home, I will know exactly what round to use, thanks to you.




God help us if someone gets the idea to have a convention...
Link Posted: 2/17/2002 12:10:54 AM EDT
Remington reduced recoil 00 buckshot in the 870

230 grain hardball in the colt gov'y

and 1 20 mag loaded with M193 for the AR
Link Posted: 2/21/2002 12:13:24 AM EDT
Some of you were discussing "testing" ammo with different types of media. testing with water doesnt work. Wet newspaper doesnt work. most ballistic gellatin tests are crap because the gellatin is improperly mixed, and at incorrect temp. some companies test with a clay like substance, thats crap too. all ammo makers have subtle differences in alloy for every lot, and thats a variable. "Foot pounds" or knockdown power is a myth (if a bullet could knock a man back 3 feet it would remove your hand on firing, simple physics).Hydrostatic shock is a load of crap. Hollowpoints typically dont work as advertised (seen plenty plucked from cadavers)due to clothing and a few other factors but theyre good if they do work, and if they dont, well u have a ball round, no biggie..Basically BIGGER IS BETTER for handguns, and if you get hit with any rifle round youre pretty much screwed..
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 3:02:57 PM EDT
Well, after 3 years of working in Property & Evidence at the Sheriff's office, and comparing bullets that were recovered from a body that we got in from the ER or the morgue, almost identically mimiced the rounds tested in water jugs. Expansion was almost the same. It was pretty simple for me, I looked at which loads were effective in real life, then use those loads or those that closely copied those when tested in jugs of water.
Link Posted: 2/23/2002 10:34:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/24/2002 8:47:38 AM EDT by SKSGuy]
Portuguese 7.62x51 146gr in my SAR-8
Russian 7.62x39 123gr in my SKS

I'd hate to be the poor bastard that threatened my family.
Link Posted: 2/23/2002 10:54:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/23/2002 10:55:44 PM EDT by blackeye]
Remington Golden Saber 9mm 147gr

Federal Hydra Shok .45 230gr

Federal 00 buckshot & Federal Hydra Shok slugs

Winchester Q1313A .223 55gr

The one I use depends on which room in the house I am in.......... Hope I don't get caught in bathroom or things might get nasty. Please don't ask what kind of ammo I have in there.



Link Posted: 2/23/2002 11:01:48 PM EDT
Either Federal Hydrashock's 147gr in my 9mm or when I'm in the mood Remington Golden Sabers 230gr in my .45 ACP
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 2:37:01 AM EDT
200gr Black Talon out of a 10mm Colt Delta Elite.You only need to hit something once with these bad boys!
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 6:50:15 PM EDT
230gr Winchester Supreme SXT HP or 230gr Speer Gold Dots in the HK USPc .45

3in Mag Federal 000 buck in the Remington 870 (That's like 10 9mm bullets hitting you simutaneously.)
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 7:40:13 PM EDT
Bushmaster SBR: Hornady 60gr TAP
Wife's Glock 19: Golden Sabre 124gr
My Glock 23C: Golden Sabre 180gr
Benelli Super 90: Federal H132 tactical 00 buck

Also available are a Springfield 1911A1 with Golden Sabre 230gr, Taurus 85 with 110gr Triton Quickshoks.

There are others, but those are the staples of our accessible arsenal.


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