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Posted: 1/20/2002 9:07:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 9:41:40 PM EDT
There was some talk about an AR in 5.45 some time ago. Most people decided that there wasn't really much to be gained, and that the taper of the 5.45 might be too much for the magazines. Something like 7.62X39, maybe.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 9:53:18 PM EDT
From what I've read, 762 x 39 does not feed well in an ar mag, so would 545 x 39 feed as well as 223 ?

It all comes down to the taper on the 762 x 39 shell.
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 5:45:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/21/2002 5:50:29 AM EDT by Wadman]
The .21 Ghengis was listed at 2850 fps for a 60 grain bullet. So that's better than a 5.56 at 3000 fps for a 69 grain bullet?
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 6:47:04 AM EDT
What do I think?
BAHHHHHH!!!!
No advantage.
Make it a 22PPC on a 7.62X39 upper/bolt carrier group and you have an accuracy issue to contend with.
For that matter make it a 6mm PPC upper,so a guy could whack Bambi with it.
Then again,if it trips your trigger who cares what anyone thinks...do it!
Gotta love the guy marching around to music only he can hear,ya know.?
Cheers!
S-28
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 6:52:32 AM EDT
ive shot both the 21 genghis and the 50 beowulf. i like the 50 better but the 21 was damn cool. it had less recoil than the 22lr i have. ill tell you, the 50 completely destroyed everything it hit. very cool... i think some advantages of the 21 genghis could be recoil, CHEAP ammo, and i hear the 5.45x39 has a helluva wound capacity...
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 7:04:49 AM EDT
It could have been kinda kewl if they made a lower that took AK mags...
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 7:21:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 7:54:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ILove2Shoot:
When tromix released the .458 he had already arranged for a commercial ammo, empty shells, and reloading dies.....



Just a correction...Tromix did not design the .458 SOCOM. A guy by the name of Marty at Teppo Jutsu did. Tromix simply made the uppers capable of handling the round.
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 11:48:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 12:59:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/21/2002 1:04:14 PM EDT by brouhaha]
Marty is a member here...and he lives down the street from me. I met him at a local show, and he's a great guy. I'll see if I can find his card if you're interested.

www.teppojutsu.com/products.htm
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 2:12:59 PM EDT
What about a 22/250 upper?
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 3:48:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 8:52:13 PM EDT
I'm not disagreeing, but how could the 5.45 have less recoil? Is it the muzzle brake, or something about the internal ballistics? I don't see how it could develop the same velocity with half the recoil.

My main concern would be the laquer coating on the steel case.

Link Posted: 1/22/2002 2:11:01 PM EDT
I read some interesting info regarding the laquer and related failures. The author attributed the problems with 223 laquers ammo to the milder case taper. The russian cases are much more tapered. Of course AK extra more violently than AR's.

Regarding recoil, it is very dependent on the gun through which the round is being shot. For instance, after shooting my 5.56 valmet, my bushmaster feels like it kicks like a mule.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 2:48:04 PM EDT
I always thought, and still do after shooting a 5.45 AK for awhile, that AKs feel like they kick harder than ARs. I think it's because the reciprocating mass of the AK is greater and the AK lacks any buffer. It's just metal slapping metal.
Link Posted: 5/10/2002 2:30:39 PM EDT
Does anyone have the .21 Genghis? Any range reports? Any problems with the 5.45x39 rounds in the AR magazines?
Link Posted: 5/10/2002 2:39:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/10/2002 2:55:43 PM EDT
I'll second CampyBob's statements. Out of a AK-74, accurate automatic fire is unbelievably controllable. The Russians make excellent small arms. I think the 5.45 is a very good round. It doesn't fragment like the 5.56, but tumbles wildly.
Link Posted: 5/10/2002 4:14:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/10/2002 4:16:11 PM EDT by Jarhead_22]
Campybob, just a few questions:


Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
fact: 5.45x39 aircore flips rapidly upon impact with soft targets. see fackler for details.


To what distance will it retain this ability out of a 16" barrel? Further than the slightly faster .223?


fact: russian 5.45x39 ammunition runs without problems in a sleazy kalashnikov ak-74. i burn barnaul, wolf and ulyanhovsk 5.45 reliably.

Aren't "sleazy kalashnikov ak-74s" made to considerably looser tolerances than AR-15s?


fact: ballistically speaking, 5.45x39 is lightyears beyond the the old soviet m-43 round (7.62x39).it carries 900-910mps at the muzzle. 5.56 ss-109 carries 915mps and 7.62x39 weighs in at 710mps. 5.45 is only slightly slower than 5.56.

Is there any advantage gained by giving up that little bit of velocity to the .223, a round that already has problems maintaining reliable wounding capacity beyond about 200=300 yards?


fact: 5.45x39 is the least powerfull round used by any modern military. the m-74 ball round generates 1,385 joules at the muzzle compared to 1700 joules for ss-109 5.56x45 ball ammo.

I wanted something more, not less, powerful than the .223, which is why I'm building an FN-FAL. Why would anyone want something that produces less energy than the already fairly low-powered .223?


fact: the felt recoil of shooting m-74 out of an ak-74 is only 3.39 joules, compared with 6.44 joules of a 5.56 m-16a1 rifle.

While I can see the attraction if you've got a registered M16 lower, who here is really bothered by the recoil of your AR firing .223?


fact: the ak-74 is more accurate its' predecessor, the akm and ITS' predecessor, the ak-47. an ar-15 version would take the accuracy even further into the zone.

I understand those Steyr-made 5.45mm sniper rifles are just mindbogglingly accurate. EricTheHun and a buddy of his were telling me about them last weekend.
Link Posted: 5/10/2002 5:10:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/10/2002 5:14:51 PM EDT by Bostonterrier97]

Originally Posted By Wadman:
The .21 Ghengis was listed at 2850 fps for a 60 grain bullet. So that's better than a 5.56 at 3000 fps for a 69 grain bullet?



Ballistically no advantage..However assuming that the AR magazines can handle the different round..and not give you any feeding problems..the 5.45 x 39 mm cartridge would probably be a little more reliable when it comese to extraction because of its increased taper.

Taper matters when the chamber is really hot...if the case is sticking to the walls of a hot chamber..a more tapered case will not have to be moved as far backward by the bolt to "unstick" it from the chamber walls.

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