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Posted: 1/19/2002 7:49:54 PM EDT
I just got my first Ar15 (car) and I am now looking to get a longer range rifle with some power.

I want to get a .308 since it is a Nato round.

I priced the AR10 but the hi cap mags are imposable to find at a decent price. So scratch that idea.

So now I am looking at the M14 for two reasons:
First: I have always wanted on since I watched "Full Metal Jacket" when I was 14.
Second: The mags are cheap and it is a proven rifle.

Since I am on a budget I am looking at the Chinese made models. (As much as I hate buying foreign) It also helps that they are new.

But, I have read on some site that the Chinese models are part interchangable with the US models.

Can someone give me some input?

What is a good price for a US made M14?

I plan on mounting a scope.

Link Posted: 1/19/2002 7:59:56 PM EDT
If its made by Polytech, save your money. I was at a gun show looking at those one time. The dealer was putting them back into their boxes for shipment back to the warehouse. Seems one fell apart while he was showing it to a customer, and another put a dent in the receiver with his thumb nail (very poor heat treating of the metal). Find yourself a good FAL clone.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 8:01:30 PM EDT
Fal clone?

What is that? I am new at this. Explain it to me like I am 8.

Thanks
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 8:08:39 PM EDT
As far as Chinese rifles go the good parts are as follows; Receiver, barrel, op rod, gas system. The questionable parts are; trigger group(to be specific, the hammer). The bad parts, the bolt, rear sight, op rod spring and stock. You are very likely to get one that is safe to shoot as is (have head space checked). You can have modifications (improvements)made as you can afford to and have a rifle that is better than a standard Springfield Inc. M1A and still cheaper. See thr reviews at Fulton Armory's site and Smith Enterprises site. If you consider $35.00-$50.00 for magazines cheap, then your definition of cheap is a little different than mine. I have a Poly Tech M-14S with mostly U.S.G.I. parts and I love it. However, If someone was looking for a bargain 7.62 NATO battle rifle I would advise them to get an FN FAL clone. If your on a budget and just have to have an M-14 clone and can't get up the cash for a Springfield Inc. M1A then get the Chinese, but don't pay more than $550.00 and pay that grudgingly and demand magazines with it. For a used standard Springfield Inc. M1A look to pay $900 to $1000.00. Maybe a little less or more depending on how motivated the seller or buyer is.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 8:11:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WolfAmongSheep:
If its made by Polytech, save your money. I was at a gun show looking at those one time. The dealer was putting them back into their boxes for shipment back to the warehouse. Seems one fell apart while he was showing it to a customer, and another put a dent in the receiver with his thumb nail (very poor heat treating of the metal). Find yourself a good FAL clone.



And you saw this happen with your own two eyes I guess. A dent in the receiver with his thumb nail!?! The Chinese are making rifles out of play dough again!
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 8:17:00 PM EDT
I don't know what your problem is, Sukube.

I one stuck my big toenail clean through a '57 Studebaker trunk, after having saved a small Amazonian village from a horde of army ants.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 8:17:14 PM EDT
What does a FN FAL go for? Used
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 8:20:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2002 8:21:08 PM EDT by Sukebe]
Oh, a Toenail sure. But a thumbnail!?! I just find that hard to believe.
Link Posted: 1/19/2002 8:25:20 PM EDT
You can find Century made FN FAL clones new for around $450.00(quality is suspect but many people consider them bargains)DSA is very well thought of I'm not sure but I think they start in the $700.00 range. IAI's seem to have a good rep too.
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 1:03:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By maxwell05:
Fal clone?What is that? I am new at this. Explain it to me like I am 8.Thanks



May I recommend to skip the FAL clone & get a G3 clone. The difference is the FAL is gas operated & requires adjusting the gas regulator to get proper operation. IOW not too much gas to slam the bolt nor too little to move the bolt.
The G3 clone is recoil operated, i.e. nothing to adjust, just load & shoot!
Both are readily on the market. A FAL clone will run around $450-550 & the G3 will run $500-600. Gun List newspaper is a good place to get a price fix before you spend your money. I used to have a L1A1 & hated readjusting the gas regulator every time I switched ammo so I sold it. I'll never sell the G3!
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 1:13:04 PM EDT
maxwell05,

Chinese M-14 clones can be salvaged, however you usually put a lot of cash into the process. Check out the Fulton Armory web page for all the technical details.

Beware of FAL clones. Not all of them are created equal. I'd steer clear of anything C.I.A. assembled from parts. They usually guarantee their products to be almost safe and shoot at least once. I don't know about DSA or Enterprise, but there are a lot of people on this board who do.

As for Springfield Armory... it's a crap shoot. I had a friend who loved his M1A and it shot well for him. My top-dollar M1A turned out to be a jam-o-matic POS.

Perhaps you should keep your eyes open for a real HK 91. They turn up on the market from time to time, but they're expensive.
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 2:04:08 PM EDT
Ditto as to what BobCole said.Also, I had a Polytech M-14.Like I said HAD, at the time I could'nt afford a S'field so I had to settle for less. The thing was so thrown together that attime it would go full auto. A smith looked at it and said the sear and the fire control parts were $h*t. I say save you $ and wait and get the real deal or look hard for a used one.
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 12:34:26 PM EDT
www.fnfal.com and become a falaholic.

The world is somewhat divided into the
AK, AR(M16), HK (G3, HK91, CETME), and FAL segments.

The FAL is/was used by 90 different countries as their standard battle rifle, so it is battle tested and reliable and often called "The Right Arm of the Free World."

You can buy a CAI version for < $500 (Hesse is reported suspect, get an Imbel receiver when possible, check it well upon receipt)
IAI for < $800
DSA, Entreprise, etc for ~$1000
have someone put one together for you (gunplumber, etc.)
or put it together yourself (buy a L1A1, or R1 parts kit from Tapco, etc., get a receiver and US complianct parts kit)

mags are _CHEAP_ - @$5-8 for 20 rounders.

investigate a SUIT for optics.

or get a CMP M1 Garand for $4-500
www.odcmp.org
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 12:37:21 PM EDT
Forget them. I had the Polytech back in 1994, and the thing was junk all around. Poor receiver geometry (although Fulton Armory likes them for complete rebuilds), crappy bolt, barrel, and wood. I couldn't get a SA GEN III scope mount to align, much less hold. Finally traded it in on a post-ban HBAR. It felt great (heavy), and would have been cool if it had worked. Save your money for a better investment. Sorry.
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 12:56:30 PM EDT
Go look at the armalite website. They now use modified m14 mags for their AR10 rifles. They sell the modified mag bodies but I did not see if they sold complete modified mags or if they offered a service to convert your mags to fit the AR10. Worth looking at because they AR10 is such a nice rifle and you just won't go wrong buying one. IMO.
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 2:08:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WolfAmongSheep:
Seems one fell apart while he was showing it to a customer, and another put a dent in the receiver with his thumb nail (very poor heat treating of the metal).



I find it impossible to believe that a Polytech M14/S receiver can be dented with a thumbnail.

As far as facts go...in the Fall of 1993, the Asst. Director of the CMSD (Civilian Marksmanship Support Detachment) asked John Kepler to bring his Polytech/USGI hybrid (one of the first I’ve heard to be built) to a meeting attended by Col. Paul Cullinane, the DCM, Col. R. Robertson, Asst. DCM, James Rose from Anniston, and Mark Kovac, Chief Armorer, CMSD. The rifle was examined by everyone present. It was then taken to Building 610 where Mr. Kovac disassembled the rifle and checked it against USGI M14 armorers guages. The receiver geometry was as close to USGI as you can get.

6 weeks following this meeting, a metallurgical analysis on the receiver was performed. The assay concluded that the receiver was made from an AISI 5100 series chrome steel. Surface hardness was a very USGI 56-58 RC, with a minimum depth of 0.010"

This is neither hearsay or an unconfirmed report, but straight from John Kepler.
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 2:16:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
Forget them. I had the Polytech back in 1994, and the thing was junk all around. Poor receiver geometry (although Fulton Armory likes them for complete rebuilds), crappy bolt, barrel, and wood. I couldn't get a SA GEN III scope mount to align, much less hold



Maybe it was the SA mount that was problematic.

As for the "poor" receiver geometry, no less an authority than the then Department of Civilian Marksmanship has deemed these receivers the equal of USGI M14 receivers. Their confidence ran high enough for them to purchase 12 receivers (4 each from Norinco, Norinco/CAI and Polytech) for possible inclusion into the program.
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 2:31:15 PM EDT
I have handled a Fulton Armory TRW M14 clone built on a Chinese receiver. It is a work of art.

Link Posted: 1/21/2002 6:27:15 PM EDT
My Norinco M1A Sporter is one of the best rifles I have ever bought. I think all the rumours about bad ones are spread by Springfield Inc or Fulton looking to make money off rebuilds.

I have had mine for over 10 years and not a single problem yet.
Link Posted: 1/21/2002 7:43:42 PM EDT
No problems with my Polytech and I've had it for over 5 years after buying it from a friend. When he had the rifle he took it to Smith Enterprise in Phoenix who tested the hardness and found everything was as strong, if not stronger, as any Springfield Armory product. Sure the wood isn't pretty but who cares for $500.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 5:39:38 AM EDT
I own a Polytech. It came to me with excessive headspace (close on a field reject gauge). I purchased a NIW USGI TRW M14 parts kit from Orion 7. I stripped the receiver and built up the parts kit on it. It went together perfectly. It is a fantastic shooting rifle now, with all USGI parts and a milspec dimensioned forged receiver. It cost me all told $1150. About in line with the cost of a Springfield, Inc M1-A with a cast receiver and some non-GI parts.

I would say for planning purposes, it will cost you about $1000 for a quality M14 type, regardless of what you buy. If you get one for less great, but figure on a grand.

Ross
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 7:37:25 AM EDT
I have built three ChiCom M14s.
They usually don't need anything except a good birch stock unless the headspace starts opening up.Then anybody here can fit a GI bolt in 2-3 hrs of careful slow work with a file and stones and a magic marker.
I tested all three receivers last night in the shop class I am in.Rockwell of 52-56.
Imagine taking three M14s into a state university.I was nervous.
cpermd
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 8:19:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2002 8:20:28 AM EDT by Redmanfms]

Originally Posted By BobCole:

May I recommend to skip the FAL clone & get a G3 clone. The difference is the FAL is gas operated & requires adjusting the gas regulator to get proper operation. IOW not too much gas to slam the bolt nor too little to move the bolt.
The G3 clone is recoil operated, i.e. nothing to adjust, just load & shoot!
Both are readily on the market. A FAL clone will run around $450-550 & the G3 will run $500-600. Gun List newspaper is a good place to get a price fix before you spend your money. I used to have a L1A1 & hated readjusting the gas regulator every time I switched ammo so I sold it. I'll never sell the G3!



Yeah, the G3 is so much better than the FAL. Except for the excessive weight, poor ergonomics, lack of reliability in all but the most expensive clones, poor accuracy (when comparing high-end FALs to high-end G3 clones), and extremely stiff recoil with anything but the lightest loads. I can definetly see the superiority of the G3.

I personally own a pre-ban Springfield M1A. It's a great rifle. Very accurate, very reliable, easy to maintain, and a relatively easy rifle for which to get parts. The M-14 clones made by the Chinese have the best receivers out there, but they just have really ugly finishes. Buy an el cheapo ChiCom rifle and have it upgraded as you go along to make it real pretty. Or buy a used Springfield and get a pretty rifle to start with.

The best .308 caliber rifle for anybody to start with is an FAL clone. The mags are cheap, parts are cheap and extremely plentiful right now, and high-quality inexpensive receivers are still readily available. But, as it is with any military-type rifle, the more money you start off with, the better will be the purchase. To get a really primo battle rifle you'll need at least a thousand dollars. Wait and save your money.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 10:23:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Redmanfms:
Yeah, the G3 is so much better than the FAL. Except for the excessive weight, poor ergonomics, lack of reliability in all but the most expensive clones, poor accuracy (when comparing high-end FALs to high-end G3 clones), and extremely stiff recoil with anything but the lightest loads. I can definetly see the superiority of the G3.



Au contraire`, mon cherie!! I owned a L1A1, cannot get anymore FAL clone than that! Sold that after I tired of constant gas readjustment after every new batch of ammo.
I don't know what you mean by "high end" G3 clones, most run in the $500-600 range. If there's more expensive, I'm not aware of them. As for recoil, hell fire son, if you can't stand a piddly assed 308rd then you shouldn't be shooting! >gg< Personally, I find very little weight difference between the two as the G3 clone has an aluminum receiver.
Accuracy is just fine shooting mil-surp ammo from gunshows, about 3-4" groups @ 100 yards. If these had a AR-type trigger instead of mish-mush triggers, it'd probably drop to half that.
No arguement that a M1A1 will deliver better accuracy but at $1,000 & up, it damn well better! >gg<
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 10:49:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2002 10:52:10 AM EDT by Redmanfms]

Originally Posted By BobCole:

Au contraire`, mon cherie!! I owned a L1A1, cannot get anymore FAL clone than that! Sold that after I tired of constant gas readjustment after every new batch of ammo.
I don't know what you mean by "high end" G3 clones, most run in the $500-600 range. If there's more expensive, I'm not aware of them. As for recoil, hell fire son, if you can't stand a piddly assed 308rd then you shouldn't be shooting! >gg< Personally, I find very little weight difference between the two as the G3 clone has an aluminum receiver.
Accuracy is just fine shooting mil-surp ammo from gunshows, about 3-4" groups @ 100 yards. If these had a AR-type trigger instead of mish-mush triggers, it'd probably drop to half that.
No arguement that a M1A1 will deliver better accuracy but at $1,000 & up, it damn well better! >gg<



The HK91 goes for $2000+

Who made the L1A1, and what kind of ammunition were you using? I somehow doubt that you could have been using decent ammo if you had to readjust the gas valve everytime you shot it. Either cheap ammo, or a crappy clone were involved somewhere. The gas valve was/is used for fine tuning the recoil impulse and ejection. I've never had to adjust the gas valve more than one or two notches every few thousand rounds with decent surplus ammo.

Now for the G3. You make a rather pathetic attempt at insulting me with the recoil "jest." Ask anybody who has shot a G3 and they will tell you that the recoil is downright uncomfortable. Most bolt-actions have less recoil than the G3. Forget repeatability and double-taps with the G3, because it just ain't gonna happen. I don't like shooting an autoloader that has more recoil than an equivalent caliber bolt-action, and I really hate having a bruise on my shoulder if I don't wear a shooting jacket.

As far as the accuracy goes, you said it yourself: 3-4" at 100 yards. A well-put-together FAL can get about 2 MOA and an M1A can get 1.5 MOA, that's with surplus ammo. Tailored handloads and match ammo will shoot sub-MOA in both my new DSA STG-58 and my inch-pattern L1A1 I built on an Imbel receiver with an Israeli HB. The M1A will tie with them.

The G3 is a cheap POS. A true HK91 is an overpriced POS.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 11:01:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FNC80:

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
Forget them. I had the Polytech back in 1994, and the thing was junk all around. Poor receiver geometry (although Fulton Armory likes them for complete rebuilds), crappy bolt, barrel, and wood. I couldn't get a SA GEN III scope mount to align, much less hold



Maybe it was the SA mount that was problematic.

As for the "poor" receiver geometry, no less an authority than the then Department of Civilian Marksmanship has deemed these receivers the equal of USGI M14 receivers. Their confidence ran high enough for them to purchase 12 receivers (4 each from Norinco, Norinco/CAI and Polytech) for possible inclusion into the program.



Yeah, yeah, I GET IT. One guy tested one receiver (per your post). This user "tested" one receiver/complete rifle and found the ENTIRE rifle lacking. Rifles are more than a sum of the parts, and the Polytech is a piss-poor rifle. If you want to take the chance that you get a decent receiver, then spend the $$$ to find rare USGI parts (www.fultonarmory.com) to retrofit it into a decent (and safe) shooter, go ahead. My original post admitted that FA liked the receivers for rebuilds, so go check out their prices for building an actual, working rifle.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 12:57:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
Yeah, yeah, I GET IT. One guy tested one receiver (per your post).



Check my quote. You commented on the "poor receiver geometry" of your Polytech. I replied to this point.



Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
This user "tested" one receiver/complete rifle and found the ENTIRE rifle lacking.



Actually, this isn't quite true either. The entire rifle is not "lacking." The barrels are fine, as are their trigger housing. The op rods are the equivalent of USGI and are preferable to the commercial op rods SA is now using. The trigger group, wood, sights, piston, and bolt should be scrapped.



Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
If you want to take the chance that you get a decent receiver



I have yet to hear of a Polytech/Norinco that was not a "decent" receiver. On the other hand, there are cases where SA cast receivers have catastrophically failed, one well witnessed case being at the National Matches.



Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
My original post admitted that FA liked the receivers for rebuilds, so go check out their prices for building an actual, working rifle.



If you buy a current production SA M1A, replace the non-USGI parts, you'll be paying more than a Polytech/Norinco receivered rifle with all USGI parts. You have a stronger receiver and a receiver that is more dimensionally correct than the Springfield.

However, you will NOT have the Springfield warranty.

I'm sorry if you're offended, but if it comes down to the DCM gaging the Chinese receivers with USGI M14 Armorers gages and you "testing" a rifle, I'll take the DCM's armorer's results over yours any day of the week.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 1:03:21 PM EDT
Please, I wasn't taking offense. There are plenty of people who like the Chinese rifles. It's my belief that they got a good receiver/rifle. I was very disappointed in ALL the aspects of my rifle, so maybe I'm painting the Chinese rifle with an unfair brush. But, if I had to do it all over again, I would go with the SA, hands down, and walk away with a decent rifle with no mods required.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 1:15:32 PM EDT
SA has the advantage for people who want a rifle out of the box and WITH a warranty. My M1A was purchased close to 10 years ago and it came with all USGI parts, except for the receiver and the barrel.
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 1:52:45 PM EDT
I like my ChiComs and would put them up against any SA(I have three SAs).
I also like Olys and Bushies.
This is a discussion which has never ended in 13 years.
cpermd
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 2:35:54 PM EDT
FAL ??? Which gun is the only one Gunnery Sgt. Hartman would approve of? If you go for anything but a US Made M-1A, he would tell you that you best un-F yourself or he'll unscrew your head and S down your neck.

Chinese M-14's??? You do believe in the virgin Mary, don't you?

Seriously, as an M1-A owner, all the M-14 scenes in that movie really add to it. Sad to admit, but I actually made a .wav file of Private Pyle putting rounds into his M-14 mag and telling Private Joker that he's already in a world of S.
Love the reverberating click sound as he put each new round in the magazine.

Don't let Gunnery Sgt. Hartman down...
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 4:04:18 PM EDT
http://www.smithenterprise.com/m14_rifle_service.htm

This guy can answer any questions about the chinese M14's you have.

Bill
Link Posted: 1/22/2002 5:44:32 PM EDT
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