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Posted: 12/27/2001 6:37:27 PM EDT
A friend of mine is looking at different types of .308 caliber rifles, he wants one that is accurate out to 300 yard with iron sights, 1000-1500 w/scope. The STG58A Type 1 from AzexArms has caught his eye and he wants to know what he can expect from that, but of course any suggestions and info on other types of rifles in that caliber that would be better suited will be greatly appreciated.
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 6:47:55 PM EDT
It's not terribly likely that you'll be able to get 1000 yard accuracy out of any autoloader that hasn't been heavily modified. Tell him to forget about 1500 yards with the .308; it's possible to get that kind of accuracy, but not probable.

300 yards with iron sights is easy to do. The DSA STG58 will do that easily, ask garandman. I've had excellent results with my M1A standard out to 500 yards with iron sights on paper. At 900 yards with a scope the rifle will shoot 20" groups, which is plenty good enough to hit a man.

If he wants 1000 yard accuracy with a .308 rifle tell him to have a gunsmith build him up a good bolt gun. 300 yards can be done with any high-quality autoloader.
Link Posted: 12/27/2001 7:57:58 PM EDT
Do pre-ban Fal's exist? how much do they go for?
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 6:59:56 AM EDT
Wrong forum for FAL questions...go here:

www.falfiles.com/cgi-bin/forums/ultimatebb.cgi

Search marketplace for prebans...or just ask.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 7:22:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Redmanfms:

300 yards with iron sights is easy to do. The DSA STG58 will do that easily, ask garandman. I've had excellent results with my M1A standard out to 500 yards with iron sights on paper. At 900 yards with a scope the rifle will shoot 20" groups, which is plenty good enough to hit a man.

If he wants 1000 yard accuracy with a .308 rifle tell him to have a gunsmith build him up a good bolt gun. 300 yards can be done with any high-quality autoloader.



Good advice.

My DSA Stg58A (Type 1 receiver) shoots 3-4" groups at 200 yards with the Hirtenberger milsurp ammo I believe. Fit and finish is VERY nice on teh DSA. And it only costs $800 (thru a friendly FFL - email me for more info on that)

Derek at AzexArms builds some of the finest FAL's around. Now, I don't have personal experience, and I'm quite sure you would be very happy with his product, but I don't beleive the EXTRA $$$ you pay Derek are gonna get you better groups that my DSA for $800. See what Derek says about this. If he says his FAL will, then consider that ANY seller talks up his product. If he says it won't.....

Also, if you desire is teh nicest FAL out there, then go with Azex, and you can be very confident you will have the best that $$$ can buy, with re: to fit and finish.

Beyond 300 yards, you DEFINITELY want a bolt gun. Hey, I'm an accuracy freak. much bigger than 4" and I don't want the gun.



Disclaimer: My DSA ***may**** be unusually accurate, I don't know.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 7:25:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Capro:
Do pre-ban Fal's exist? how much do they go for?


Pre-ban FN FAL's do exist and they are very fine weapons.

First of all I'm impressed with anyone that's brave enough and good enough to put "iron sights" and "300 yards in the same sentence !! I believe that finally I have every rifle I use scoped - that's cause I can't see of course.
As to the 1000 - 1500 yd. with scope requirement. Many on this board may disagree but I believe the "practical wall" for the .308 is about 700-800 yds. Please remember that unlike the .223 and .243 rounds that shoot a flat trajectory the .308 is kind of a looper.

Now there are several different pre-ban FN FAL's to choose from.
From the info available in your post I would recommend the "FN 50.00 L.A.R. Match".
With some shopping you can buy one for about $2000 - $2300.
Cheap ? No, but a superior firearm that will continue to escalate in value.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 7:26:25 AM EDT
Speaking of .308, does anyone have any experience with the Super VEPR?

http://www.robarm.com/supervepr.htm
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 7:58:52 AM EDT
Since bolt-guns have been mentioned there is a bolt-gun new, at least to me that's interesting.

The "Fulton Armory FN Special Police Rifle, .308 Win.
Rifle comes with no sights as scope is expected for use but iron sights could be added.
This rifle shot 100 yd groups from smallest .5" - largest .7"
Rifle is built on a Winchester Model 70 action with adjustable trigger.
Get this - the barrel is chrome-lined not stainless steel.

The FN Police Special out performed. the Robar S90, the Autagua Tactical and the Dakota Longbow
All three of these rifles cost considerably more than the Fulton Armory rifle.

The FN Police Special cost is about $950.00 retail and LEO's pay something like $825.00.

(Source: "Gun Tests," December 2001)
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 8:06:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:

Disclaimer: My DSA ***may**** be unusually accurate, I don't know.


Then again maybe not.
The STG58A Austrian parts on a DS Arms receiver may be just the finest FAL for the dollar out there.
I believe the barrels are hammer-forged. I do know that DS Arms bought all those barrels known to exist.
Link Posted: 12/28/2001 8:48:39 AM EDT
I used to not mention Iron Sights and 300 Yards in the same sentance, untill I started shooting High Power rifle. We shoot 200 yards standing. I have an ARS FAL/StG and while I like it a lot, it is no where as accurate as grandman's DSA. My M1A, which is what I was shooting High Power with (untill I bought a Compass Lake AR-15) will get just under an inch at 100 yards off bags with Fed Gold or my hand loads. I have actually got some pretty good groups at 200 yard (reduced target size) shooting sitting and prone, 4-5 inches for 20 rounds with the stock M1A.

Bill
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