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Posted: 11/30/2001 11:07:04 AM EDT
I'm anxious to buy my first ar15 and i've narrowed it down to two. Either the DPMS Panther Bull Sweet 16 or the Bushmastr XM15 E2S Shorty AK A3 16" Rifle. Can anyone give me some suggestions on which would be better for me. I'd mostly be target shooting with this rifle. Also the Ak comes with the muzzle break, is it needed or just go with the one without it? please help. Thanks in advance
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 11:11:17 AM EDT
A half-@$$ response: I've had good luck w/ Bushy standard 20" AR's, so I guess that's a vote for Bushy. Plus, a muzzle brake sure looks more "gee whiz" than a plain ol' piece of pipe - don't know whether it's actually needed.
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 11:26:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 11:49:08 AM EDT
Yea, Thats what I was thinking. I like the versatility of the BM but I like the looks of the dpms. I guess if I throw the elcan scope on it, it would look close to it. Now, the question is, do you prefer the muzzle break or no, and also, should I consider a hbar or regular. thanks again.
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 12:59:36 PM EDT
ALways go for Bushy over DPMS...however I am a Rock River Arms lover myself.

As for a muzzlebreak, you can get one on any rifle if you so desire...it's the flash suppressor on a post-ban rifle that can get you in trouble (put you over the limit on the list of "no no's" by BATF).
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 1:05:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2001 12:59:18 PM EDT by esq1995]
Well, it looks like you are specifically looking for a flat top model, and in that respect I cannot comment. I've got a DPMS DCM model and a BM Shorty and I love 'em both.

I can say that this past weekend I fired a BM Shorty AK for the first time. That break makes it very loud and concentrates the fireball like two dragon blasts going out each side. Nothing like a regular shorty.

When we switched from Win. Q3131 to Denel surplus ammo that has built in flash suppressant it made a huge difference, but it was still an ear splitter.

Soooooo . . . I guess I'd vote for the Sweet 16.

Also, take a look at the BM Dissipator and the DPMS A2 Tactical.
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 1:45:37 PM EDT
I would go with the bushy 16" shorty and if you want muzzle brake have mini y-comp put on .The 16" AK shorty only has 14.5" barrel and you can't remove the muzzle brake and still remain legal.
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 2:12:48 PM EDT

tailgate - why do for bushy over dpms? my rifle is half of each. personally i prefer to deal with dpms.
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 2:16:24 PM EDT
I have a Bushy AK Shorty A2 and I don't notice that much difference in the blast, now the Mini Y comp of theirs is another story. I shoot with ear plugs so the blast thing isn't a big deal, I have not noticed a fire ball out of the break, but I don't shoot very early or very late in the day and I have been shooting Federal American eagle 62 gr and UMC 55 gr FMJ. The Bushy is mil spec, i.e. chrome bore and chamber etc, so the barrel will last longer, the DPMS is not chromed. Marland AR15 Shooters http://communities.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite&naventryid=120 has some good info on the various makers spec's. My Bushy Shorty is good for 1.5" or better with an Aimpoint Comp at 100 yards.
It has been a great IPSC rifle.

Bill

Happinesss is a warm gun
Bang bang, shoot shoot...
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 2:24:50 PM EDT
I have one of each and think they are both a good value for the money. Out of curiosity, why the different configurations. Both companies make both of the models you chose. IMO the AK muzzle brake is louder. I would not get that particular brake for myself after shooting a friends. However I do know that several members really like them.
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 2:27:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 3:22:32 PM EDT
BM is overpriced by 18% as near as I can tell.
I tried to order 55 lower parts kits and was amazed at the prices I was given on the phone today.I could buy complete lowers for what Jarrod and BM wanted for stripped lowers.
I was a BM fan until today.
cpermd
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 3:29:39 PM EDT
M15-a2............
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 3:53:34 PM EDT
Hey, Mustang...

First, don't get a muzzle break. 223 doesn't kick that much and just makes it *loud* for your fellow shooters at the range - and a bare muzzle will be more accurate anyway.

I would buy the Bushmaster simply because it has a chrome-lined barrel with a milspec chamber, and its receivers are made from forgings.

You won't have - or will have far fewer - feed problems, etc. w/various types of ammo with a milspec chamber and chrome lining. The largest percentage of folks posting to these boards and "the list" that complain of extraction/ ejection problems have rifles w/unlined barrels and chambers set up for SAAMI ammo specs. [For the record, I've had a J&T kit with an unlined barrel that worked just great. But from now on, knowing what I know, I will always get a milspec chrome-lined barrel from the "ABC" guys (Armalite, Bushmaster, or Colt).] The lined barrels are *much* much easier to clean and last far longer due to chrome's hardness and wear resistance.

At some point, I believe DPMS only offered upper/lower receivers made from castings. They may now offer forgings, I dunno. Castings are more fragile (i.e, crackable) than forgings.
Being in Kaliforna before our AW bans set in,
I had to buy stuff that would last for a lifetime.

I have, again for the record, not heard of many problems w/DPMS. But they sell far fewer rifles, it seems, than Bushmaster. While I've heard of the odd Bushy issue, most folks seem happy with 'em. I have Bushy, Colt, Armalite and J&T and have had no problems; I'm particularly fond of my Bushy Dissipator upper on a Colt postban lower; it's my go-to gun.

The price difference from a chromed vs. unlined barrel and from forged vs cast rcvrs may well be over $100 or so.

The "bull barrel" will, on average, not be any more or less accurate than a std. profile Bushy barrel, and your AR will be a helluva lot easier to carry around (over the hills & thru the woods, etc.) without that extra 1lb (?) of metal.

If you intend to use a scope, I'd recommend you get a flat-top model (for either brand).

Bottom line: you won't go wrong with a flat-top Bushy. Get a carry handle for iron sights too; if your scope fails you can put the carry handle back on and be pretty close to zero.

Regards, Bill

-Bill Wiese
-San Mateo, CA

<­BR>
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 5:15:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2001 5:16:04 PM EDT by WalkerTexasRanger]
Either brand, good choice. I have the DPMS DCM and have had exactly 0 problems. Consider the DCM for target shooting, you will appreciate the increased accuracy from the 20" barrel and the NM sights. Major improvement over the basic. Further, much more fun, and really appropriate with an AR to use the iron sights. Adds more of a human element. It really pisses off the hunters when you are out at 300 hitting the bull with your iron sights, which they can barely do with their $700 scopes and $1500 bolt actions. I found a DCM for $750 at the recent gun show here in Houston. Avoid the brake, it is not necessary on a .223, not competition legal, and loud. DPMS also use forged receivers, visit dpmsinc.com and you can get the actual specs. You might get interested high power competition as well, and there the DCM is clearly the only way to go...
Link Posted: 11/30/2001 6:39:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2001 6:33:11 PM EDT by macloud]
I would go with the Bushmaster simply because of the chrome barrel and chamber. I am not known for cleaning my guns very often, and the last stretch I ran 1500 rounds through my Colt over a period of about 18 months before I opened it up to even look at it.

I would skip the brake as well. You can get one of those fake bird cage flash suppressors that slip over the barrel. It will look good and not effect accuracy.

Edit: I have an HBAR on my Colt and like it very much. If you are going to do some serious shooting later (competition), you will want the heavy barrel.
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 5:28:17 AM EDT
Hey guys, Thanks for all your input. I think I will go with the bushy minus the brake. Now all I have to do is find a good place to buy from :)
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 5:59:05 AM EDT
If target shooting is primary, why not the Sweet 16?.. then get an extra upper in the other config described for occasional use. Regarding DPMS vs BM, I have several DPMS variants, never a problem with any. Accuracy is superb from my 20" SS Bull, and am just completing the assembly of a fluted Sweet 16 for my son. As far as mil-spec chamber, I doubt that surplus ammo gets the nod for serious targets. Quality reloaded ammo, both self and purchased, have provided me with countless rounds with no probs. BM fans take no offense please, several of my shooting partners have them and have never complained. Just my .02.
Link Posted: 12/1/2001 8:39:04 AM EDT
I have a 20" DPMS, and I love it, I put a wilson compensator on it, because I liked the look. It doesn't seem to affect the point of impact, I've heard others who say it does, and that it pulls to the left. Never had this problem. I have shot my friend's Bushy, and liked it too, but I didn't like the CAR type stock, couldn't get a good cheek weld. I think the new ones that RR sell are supposed to be better.
AIRBORNE
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