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Posted: 11/14/2001 5:40:14 PM EDT
I have a nice new TZ-99 I picked up from AIM a month or so back. I really like it, and don't want to blow it or myself up. I got a line on some Federal Hydra-shock 124grain +P+. Is this stuff safe to shoot in it?
Thanks,
AIRBORNE
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 5:45:31 PM EDT
I wouldn't put ANY +p or +P+ rounds in any gun other then a HK.
My USP 45 Eats that stuff up.
It also eats up the wallet so I keep it to a minimun.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 6:24:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 6:30:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 9:17:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 9:48:20 PM EDT
So what firearms are +P+ made for?, Ruger #1's ?, Anti-Tank rifles? If it was only safe to shoot in one pistol, the manufacturers wouldn't produce any at all.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 9:56:08 PM EDT
The manual for my HK USPC stated that while the pistol is warranted for +P factory loads, the use of such loads would shorten the frame life.

I would also trust my Beretta with 9MM +P+ loads for limited use. After all, doesn't NATO spec ammo has similar ballistics?
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 10:36:41 PM EDT
Go out and buy a box of .45acp. And then, a good delivery system.(1911, HK, Glock, etc.) That's the answer to the 9mm+P+ problem.
Link Posted: 11/14/2001 10:38:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NoSheep:
Go out and buy a box of .45acp. And then, a good delivery system.(1911, HK, Glock, etc.) That's the answer to the 9mm+P+ problem.



Not this BS again.
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 8:09:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 11:58:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 2:00:09 PM EDT
That is why GLOCKS RULE.
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 2:15:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
Actually, a SIG's already short lifespan (compared to Glocks, HK USPs, or Beretta 92s) will be significantly reduced shooting +P+ ammo. Granted, this ammo will reduce the lifespan of ANY gun to some extent, but SIGs (assuming you mean Sig Sauers) are well known to have a relatively low round count before failure. This may not apply to a SIG 210...

-Troy



Hey Troy, where do you get your information? By the time I sent my SIG P229 down the road it had well in excess of 40k rounds and it looked and shot like brand new. The SIG P226 I am currently using - oh hell, I don't have a clue how many untold thousand rounds have been down the pipe on this baby. To say that one of the finest combat firearms in the world is questionable with +P is offensive @ best. And the firearms you list as superior? When beretta installs a pin to keep their 92 from killing the operator during catastrophic slide failures I don't consider it a superior weapon. Name one U.S. special operations team that uses the USP? And as for Glocks, they are cool; long service life and virtually indestructable but superior to a Sig, I don't think so.
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 3:26:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 3:47:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/15/2001 3:40:55 PM EDT by BKVic]
Yes,the Beretta slide did fly back and hit the shooter but only after shooting thousands of proof loads with double the chamber pressure that the pistol was designed to take. I feel pretty safe with my 92FS and any +p,+p+ ammo.

BKVic
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 3:50:43 PM EDT
Rabbit9, many U.S Navy SEALs use HK USP Tactical models in addition to the Mk24 Mod 0 pistol(Sig 226).

And as for the D-boys, i think personal preference goes there, so 1911s, Sigs and HKs are used for sure.

And for the Berettas, one part that is more likely to break than the slide itself is the locking lever, as far as i know there were only a few cases of slides breaking with ST6 where operators shot great numbers of hot ammo.

Link Posted: 11/15/2001 5:21:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tuukka:
Rabbit9, many U.S Navy SEALs use HK USP Tactical models




Ummm, no.
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 7:23:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ARben:

Originally Posted By Tuukka:
Rabbit9, many U.S Navy SEALs use HK USP Tactical models




Ummm, no.



Ditto - When production of beretta pistols began in the U.S. so did the problems, our local government SRT boys can vouch for that(they switched to Glocks). The problems were wide spread. The Delta folks prefer the 1911's, and NOBODY likes the HK's. If you were given the choice of carrying an HK MK23 in full kit(laser designator/supressor), or a M4 (which is roughly the same size/weight) which one would you chose?
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 10:06:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rabbit9:

Originally Posted By ARben:

Originally Posted By Tuukka:
Rabbit9, many U.S Navy SEALs use HK USP Tactical models




Ummm, no.



Ditto - When production of beretta pistols began in the U.S. so did the problems, our local government SRT boys can vouch for that(they switched to Glocks). The problems were wide spread. The Delta folks prefer the 1911's, and NOBODY likes the HK's. If you were given the choice of carrying an HK MK23 in full kit(laser designator/supressor), or a M4 (which is roughly the same size/weight) which one would you chose?


BTW
The seals switched to the 226 when the slides on the m9's were breaking from the thousands of near proof loads being put down range. I have seen the 226 a lot on tv with the seals, but reports of the frames cracking sooner then the slides on the m9's have caused some to go back to the beretta. Beretta reports that the seals have recently ordered over 1800 92fs brigadiers (the model with a heavier slide around the barrel lock up point) with the safties modified to omit the decocker for cocked & locked carry AND repeat strike capability. Their belief is very valid in that the hk is just too big for a handgun; a weapon that is really a last ditch alternative to a malfunctioning rifle or subgun. As a bonus, the beretta is MUCH easier to reliably silence then a 226.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 12:51:55 AM EDT
A normal USP or even a Tactical isn´t like the pick up truck sized Mk23 with the suppressor and LAM.

The sound suppressors especially will see an increase in use, from what the use has been, try mounting a KAC can on a SIG or 1911, much easier on a HK Tactical for example.

The SIG 226 isn´t the only pistol the Budweiser boys are carrying.

And what i have gathered, 1911s seem to be popular with Delta, but there are other pistols used also.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 6:44:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ARben:

Originally Posted By Rabbit9:

Originally Posted By ARben:

Originally Posted By Tuukka:
Rabbit9, many U.S Navy SEALs use HK USP Tactical models




Ummm, no.



Ditto - When production of beretta pistols began in the U.S. so did the problems, our local government SRT boys can vouch for that(they switched to Glocks). The problems were wide spread. The Delta folks prefer the 1911's, and NOBODY likes the HK's. If you were given the choice of carrying an HK MK23 in full kit(laser designator/supressor), or a M4 (which is roughly the same size/weight) which one would you chose?


BTW
The seals switched to the 226 when the slides on the m9's were breaking from the thousands of near proof loads being put down range. I have seen the 226 a lot on tv with the seals, but reports of the frames cracking sooner then the slides on the m9's have caused some to go back to the beretta. Beretta reports that the seals have recently ordered over 1800 92fs brigadiers (the model with a heavier slide around the barrel lock up point) with the safties modified to omit the decocker for cocked & locked carry AND repeat strike capability. Their belief is very valid in that the hk is just too big for a handgun; a weapon that is really a last ditch alternative to a malfunctioning rifle or subgun. As a bonus, the beretta is MUCH easier to reliably silence then a 226.



Haven't heard that about the P226 frames, and would be interested in your source. You're right about the suppressor in one respect and that is reliable cycling. I believe AAC is the only major manufacturer that advertises reliable operation on a SIG without the neilson device, but most cans won't reliably cycle the beretta without a reduced recoil spring.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 8:11:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rabbit9:

Originally Posted By ARben:

Originally Posted By Rabbit9:

Originally Posted By ARben:

Originally Posted By Tuukka:
Rabbit9, many U.S Navy SEALs use HK USP Tactical models




Ummm, no.



Ditto - When production of beretta pistols began in the U.S. so did the problems, our local government SRT boys can vouch for that(they switched to Glocks). The problems were wide spread. The Delta folks prefer the 1911's, and NOBODY likes the HK's. If you were given the choice of carrying an HK MK23 in full kit(laser designator/supressor), or a M4 (which is roughly the same size/weight) which one would you chose?


BTW
The seals switched to the 226 when the slides on the m9's were breaking from the thousands of near proof loads being put down range. I have seen the 226 a lot on tv with the seals, but reports of the frames cracking sooner then the slides on the m9's have caused some to go back to the beretta. Beretta reports that the seals have recently ordered over 1800 92fs brigadiers (the model with a heavier slide around the barrel lock up point) with the safties modified to omit the decocker for cocked & locked carry AND repeat strike capability. Their belief is very valid in that the hk is just too big for a handgun; a weapon that is really a last ditch alternative to a malfunctioning rifle or subgun. As a bonus, the beretta is MUCH easier to reliably silence then a 226.



Haven't heard that about the P226 frames, and would be interested in your source. You're right about the suppressor in one respect and that is reliable cycling. I believe AAC is the only major manufacturer that advertises reliable operation on a SIG without the neilson device, but most cans won't reliably cycle the beretta without a reduced recoil spring.



I can't remember the exact book the seal info was in, but I have also read of the same problem with canadian (can't remember the police unit's name. . . dohh) tactical units. I don't remember if the failure prob had to do with the material used, but if I remember correctly it was simply that they just were not as robust as they need to be for the abuse they recieved.
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 1:58:43 AM EDT
In the late 1980’s, Sig P226’s had a habit of cracking frame rails.

The Secret Service tested 12 of them in about 1987, 9 of these 12 cracked one or both frame rails during this testing. My recollection is that some failures occurred as early as 3000 rounds.

Royal Canadian Mounted Police SWAT adopted P226’s at about the same time and also had problems. However, these may have been broken draw bars and return springs, instead of cracked frames - I just don't remember for sure. I have no idea what ammo was used by either the USSS or RCMP.

Also at about the same time, the FBI concluded that any aluminum frame semi-auto would start having failures after about 10,000 rounds (which is one of the reasons they went with the ill-fated steel framed S&W 1076).

Sig modified the P226, which postponed, but didn’t completely solve, the problem.

The Secret Service later adopted the P228 and fired extensive amounts of Remington +P+ 115 grain 9MM’s through them. They did not have frame rail cracking problems. However, they did have a lot of miscellaneous parts breakage and accelerated wear. (They have recently gone to the P229 in .357 Sig.)

In other words, if you drive your car slow it will last longer than if you constantly push it to the limit. No surprise here.
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 1:14:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MurderSHO45:
I wouldn't put ANY +p or +P+ rounds in any gun other then a HK.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Glocks can digest +P/+P+ just as well. Sig & Beretta can handle a steady diet also."

You know I said that just to give a nice HK bias opinion.
Link Posted: 11/19/2001 2:09:07 PM EDT
I've put plenty of CORBON 115gr 1350fps
loads through my Glocks with no problems.

Is +P+ hotter than that???

Link Posted: 11/20/2001 10:59:36 AM EDT
Actually +P+ isn't "ALWAYS" hotter than +P. The designation of +P+ is primarily used to designate LE only ammo, although most companies don't care if you buy them. Sometimes +P+ is loaded to lower velocities than regular +P. It is the velocities that you want to look at. The +P pressure level is regulated by SAAMI at a maximum of 38,500 psi compared to 35,000 psi for standard loads. The +P+ level is not regulated by SAAMI and is left up to the individual ammo manufacturers and is sold directly to LE personal after obtaining a liability waiver. Generally +P+ runs around 40,000 psi. Sometimes the +P+ rating is used to artificially "restrict" the use of the ammo to LE. The Federal 115 gr +P+ 98BPLE has a velocity of 1260 fps, while the +P Cor Bon has a velocity of 1330 fps. When using a 9mm for self defense, you should use a load with a muzzle velocity of 1260 fps and above. Like everything in life, everything "in moderation" is ok. Just don't feed a steady diet of +P or +P+ and you should be fine. Think about it, would the ammo makers really produce anything to blow up any pistol and risk a law suit ???
I got most of the above figures from the latest Guns & Ammo Annual article on the top 10 defence loads.

bowhuntr
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 11:39:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bowhuntr:
Actually +P+ isn't "ALWAYS" hotter than +P. The designation of +P+ is primarily used to designate LE only ammo, although most companies don't care if you buy them. Sometimes +P+ is loaded to lower velocities than regular +P. It is the velocities that you want to look at. The +P pressure level is regulated by SAAMI at a maximum of 38,500 psi compared to 35,000 psi for standard loads. The +P+ level is not regulated by SAAMI and is left up to the individual ammo manufacturers and is sold directly to LE personal after obtaining a liability waiver. Generally +P+ runs around 40,000 psi. Sometimes the +P+ rating is used to artificially "restrict" the use of the ammo to LE. The Federal 115 gr +P+ 98BPLE has a velocity of 1260 fps, while the +P Cor Bon has a velocity of 1330 fps. When using a 9mm for self defense, you should use a load with a muzzle velocity of 1260 fps and above. Like everything in life, everything "in moderation" is ok. Just don't feed a steady diet of +P or +P+ and you should be fine. Think about it, would the ammo makers really produce anything to blow up any pistol and risk a law suit ???
I got most of the above figures from the latest Guns & Ammo Annual article on the top 10 defence loads.

bowhuntr



Yeah, or just shoot .357 SIG!
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 12:51:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 1:08:46 PM EDT


Yeah, or just shoot .357 SIG!




That was pretty much my solution too.
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