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Originally Posted By TheOtherDave: Yes, but bigger hole means a little louder than 9mm. There's a lot more going on and the difference isn't enough to make a difference. 1) Pressure The .45 ACP operates at up to 21,000 psi in standard loads and up to 23,000 psi in +P loads. In contrast the 9mm Luger operates at up to 35,000 psi for standard loads and up to 38,500 psi for +P loads. That's a lot more pressure and all other things being equal a lot more bark. 2) Expansion ratio In addition, the larger .451" bore diameter of the .45 ACP means the bore volume increases by .16 cubic inch per each inch of barrel length. In contrast the .355 bore diameter of the 9mm Luger only increases by .1 cubic inch per each inch of barrel length. What that means is that the .45 ACP +P operates at just 60 percent of the pressure of the 9mm +P , and has a 60 percent higher bore expansion ratio. More room to expand in the barrel, means substantially lower gas pressure even before that gas reaches the suppressor. 3) The overall effects As a real world example, an Omega 45K will suppress a .45 ACP to 135.9 dB in a handgun, compared to 137.7 dB for 9mm in the same length handgun barrel. In comparison the slightly smaller (and slightly smaller, and smaller end cap hole) Omega 9K will suppress the same 9mm round to 135.8 dB. That's almost 2 dB less than the 9mm round fired through the larger end cap hole Omega 45K suppressor. But in an apples to apples Omega 45 versus Omega 9K comparison with both firing their designed caliber the difference is just .1 dB. ---- Keep in mind as well that in the longer barrel of a PCC or PDW, the effects of barrel expansion are increased significantly, so both rounds will be quieter out of a 8-10" barrel than from a 4-5" barrel. And, the increased expansion in the larger .45 ACP just increases its advantages over the 9mm Luger. |
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Originally Posted By DDRAIGA: You have made the decision (at least partially) since you're looking for hearing safe. That effectively means subsonic. By definition this excludes full power rifle calibers and means a compromise in "knockdown power" or "effectiveness" Fundamentally the purpose of the round is to put a hole in the target, in something vital. Assuming you can get hits on vitals there are only a few other variables to be addressed: You have selected slow, this means pure crush injury to tissue (cavitation will not be a component) Energy is misleading because anything that isn't stopped by the target doesn't transfer 100% of the energy to the target. The answer is Slow and Fat. But these rounds are not sexy currently. But look at history. 45 Colt, 45 ACP, hell the Minie ball were all subsonic but the major man killers of their day. 45 ACP is the easy button because it generally does't go supersonic even in longer barrels. It starts at the diameter that your hoping 9mm expands to and you don't have to worry about keeping it subsonic. If it expands then the hole is even bigger (requiring less accuracy or speeding up the effects of exsanguination) If it doesn't over penetrate then you have better energy transfer to the target. Remember the MP5SD ends up slowing down 9mm so much in order to be so quiet that it is effectively 380 ACP. Great post that I'm 100 percent in agreement with, until the last sentence. You've ignored bullet weight. A .380 ACP will launch a 90 gr bullet to around 1050 fps which is about the ideal muzzle velocity for a sub sonic round in cold temperatures. However, a 9mm Luger can launch a 147 gr bullet at that same 1050 fps velocity. It gets the same sub sonic results with similar BC and trajectory, but with 57 grains more weight. At sub gun zero ranges of 100 yards, that 90 gr ,380 will have 223 ft pounds at the muzzle and a max mid range trajectory of about +4.5" at 50 yards and be 5" low at about 125 yards where it will have only 884 fps and 156 ft pounds of energy. The 147 gr 9mm at the same 1050 fps muzzle velocity will have a nearly identical trajectory but will start out with 346 ft pounds and will still have 914 fps and 259 ft pounds at 125 yards - more velocity and e4nergy than the .380 ACP had at the muzzle. |
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Originally Posted By DakotaFAL: There's a lot more going on and the difference isn't enough to make a difference. 1) Pressure The .45 ACP operates at up to 21,000 psi in standard loads and up to 23,000 psi in +P loads. In contrast the 9mm Luger operates at up to 35,000 psi for standard loads and up to 38,500 psi for +P loads. That's a lot more pressure and all other things being equal a lot more bark. 2) Expansion ratio In addition, the larger .451" bore diameter of the .45 ACP means the bore volume increases by .16 cubic inch per each inch of barrel length. In contrast the .355 bore diameter of the 9mm Luger only increases by .1 cubic inch per each inch of barrel length. What that means is that the .45 ACP +P operates at just 60 percent of the pressure of the 9mm +P , and has a 60 percent higher bore expansion ratio. More room to expand in the barrel, means substantially lower gas pressure even before that gas reaches the suppressor. 3) The overall effects As a real world example, an Omega 45K will suppress a .45 ACP to 135.9 dB in a handgun, compared to 137.7 dB for 9mm in the same length handgun barrel. In comparison the slightly smaller (and slightly smaller, and smaller end cap hole) Omega 9K will suppress the same 9mm round to 135.8 dB. That's almost 2 dB less than the 9mm round fired through the larger end cap hole Omega 45K suppressor. But in an apples to apples Omega 45 versus Omega 9K comparison with both firing their designed caliber the difference is just .1 dB. ---- Keep in mind as well that in the longer barrel of a PCC or PDW, the effects of barrel expansion are increased significantly, so both rounds will be quieter out of a 8-10" barrel than from a 4-5" barrel. And, the increased expansion in the larger .45 ACP just increases its advantages over the 9mm Luger. Show of hands, guys: who here has ever heard a suppressed .45 that was quieter than a subsonic 9mm in similar setups? |
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Originally Posted By DakotaFAL: Great post that I'm 100 percent in agreement with, until the last sentence. You've ignored bullet weight. A .380 ACP will launch a 90 gr bullet to around 1050 fps which is about the ideal muzzle velocity for a sub sonic round in cold temperatures. However, a 9mm Luger can launch a 147 gr bullet at that same 1050 fps velocity. It gets the same sub sonic results with similar BC and trajectory, but with 57 grains more weight. At sub gun zero ranges of 100 yards, that 90 gr ,380 will have 223 ft pounds at the muzzle and a max mid range trajectory of about +4.5" at 50 yards and be 5" low at about 125 yards where it will have only 884 fps and 156 ft pounds of energy. The 147 gr 9mm at the same 1050 fps muzzle velocity will have a nearly identical trajectory but will start out with 346 ft pounds and will still have 914 fps and 259 ft pounds at 125 yards - more velocity and e4nergy than the .380 ACP had at the muzzle. It was designed before 147gr subsonic was available. Otherwise they would have just shot 147gr subsonic in a suppressed MP5 and saved themselves the trouble. It was designed to slow NATO 124gr loads down to subsonic speeds. So 124gr @ 1050 fps = about 300 ft lbs of energy. .380 out of a 9" MP5 barrel would give about 300 ft lbs of energy. If you're going to shoot 147gr out of your MP5SD, it's going to slow down to about 800 fps, which is a little over 200 ft lbs of energy (if it cycles). So... about .380 ACP energy either way.  https://www.reddit.com/r/MP5/comments/1ipbrwv/is_it_ok_to_shoot_147gr_subsonic_out_of_mp5sd/ |
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Energy isn't a wounding mechanism. If a PDW or whatever isn't impacting well-above rifle velocities (2200+ FPS), you are only benefiting from the construction of that bullet in how it fragments, expands, etc to provide cutting paths. The faster it's going the more reliable bullets can be. Not a big issue in short 9mm, 300 BLK, 5.56, but definitely a known issue to 380 ACP. Holes always work, and distal tearing from frag or sheer insane speed helps even more. Regardless, it's my house, not a discrete carry option like waistband or small bag, which greatly diminish your options. I just use a 5.56, anything that's 10.3-16" with a simple 556 can. Maybe I'll have permanent hearing loss, but a 62 gr Gold Dot from those is far more lethal than any 9mm or 300 BLK in my experience and it's in a rifle that's not so comically small I don't get good reps in with it. And there are motion lights with known angles through drywall referenced by whatever the hell my wife wanted to make framed, so I'll take what can punch a corner load of drywall and skill kill over some goofy bag gun. Cameras already tell me I don't need to be polite. |
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Originally Posted By CharlesRyan:Look up auditory exclusion. It will happen during a "life or death" situation, or massive adrenaline dump. It has happened to me Originally Posted By CharlesRyan:Look up auditory exclusion. It will happen during a "life or death" situation, or massive adrenaline dump. It has happened to me Originally Posted By dogtired:Auditory exclusion is not hearing safe. Whether you care about the hearing damage or not is another matter. |
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Originally Posted By FrankDrebin: Don't sleep on a CZ Scorpion pistol with a brace. I have one and it is very quiet suppressed. Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Originally Posted By Daggertt: You've ignored the design and use of MP5SDs. It was designed before 147gr subsonic was available. Otherwise they would have just shot 147gr subsonic in a suppressed MP5 and saved themselves the trouble. It was designed to slow NATO 124gr loads down to subsonic speeds. So 124gr @ 1050 fps = about 300 ft lbs of energy. .380 out of a 9" MP5 barrel would give about 300 ft lbs of energy. If you're going to shoot 147gr out of your MP5SD, it's going to slow down to about 800 fps, which is a little over 200 ft lbs of energy (if it cycles). So... about .380 ACP energy either way. https://preview.redd.it/is-it-ok-to-shoot-147gr-subsonic-out-of-mp5sd-even-if-its-v0-113dlwz094je1.jpeg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=806af5bd5451407d9e19bfb0921d408711b50562 https://www.reddit.com/r/MP5/comments/1ipbrwv/is_it_ok_to_shoot_147gr_subsonic_out_of_mp5sd/ You seem to have missed some critical information. 1) I have an MP5 with a suppressor attached, not an MP5SD with an Integral suppressor designed to slow 124 gr FMJ to sub sonic velocity. 2) I have loaded 147 gr hollow points to achieve 1040-1060 fps in my MP5 and UZI with a suppressor attached. It’s a big difference as the full barrel length is used to increase velocity (rather than vent gas into an integral suppressor) and then sends the bullet and gasses through the suppressor. Which means we are back to all of the reliability of expansion, section density, momentum and energy advantages of a 147 gr .355” bullet at around 1050 fps versus a 90 gr .355” bullet at around 1050 fps. |
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Originally Posted By DakotaFAL: You seem to have missed some critical information. 1) I have an MP5 with a suppressor attached, not an MP5SD with an Integral suppressor designed to slow 124 gr FMJ to sub sonic velocity. 2) I have loaded 147 gr hollow points to achieve 1040-1060 fps in my MP5 and UZI with a suppressor attached. It's a big difference as the full barrel length is used to increase velocity (rather than vent gas into an integral suppressor) and then sends the bullet and gasses through the suppressor. Which means we are back to all of the reliability of expansion, section density, momentum and energy advantages of a 147 gr .355" bullet at around 1050 fps versus a 90 gr .355" bullet at around 1050 fps. "Remember the MP5SD ends up slowing down 9mm so much in order to be so quiet that it is effectively 380 ACP." And you specifically disagreed with him ON THAT. Attached File |
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I've waffled on this over the years, and I have used multiple AR's over the years as HD Rifles, and I do have a Suppressed 10.5 set up to do that now. ...But what's at my bedside is a Suppressed AP5-P (MP5K Clone) with 147 HST's. It's nowhere near as lethal as a 5.56, but man can I run it fast, and I shoot it more so I'm better with it. 9mm at an indoor range is FUN. 5.56 at an Indoor range is, even suppressed, tolerable... so I don't do it that much. And most of my shooting is indoor; I shoot outdoor far less often. And I've been in there alone with that AP5... it's fine without hearing protection with Subs, even indoors. My feeling is that the gun I shoot a lot is probably going to put more rounds on target faster than the gun I shoot a little, even if the rounds are individually less effective. Now, back when I was shooting matches and was slinging an AR all the time, my thoughts were different. But now... |
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Originally Posted By hydrostatic_cling: Energy isn't a wounding mechanism. If a PDW or whatever isn't impacting well-above rifle velocities (2200+ FPS), you are only benefiting from the construction of that bullet in how it fragments, expands, etc to provide cutting paths. The faster it's going the more reliable bullets can be. Not a big issue in short 9mm, 300 BLK, 5.56, but definitely a known issue to 380 ACP. Holes always work, and distal tearing from frag or sheer insane speed helps even more. My apologies for getting everyone on a tangent about .380. This quote is partly what I was trying to say: Energy is a surrogate for potential penetration. I agree that 124gr 9mm at 1050FPS will outperform 90Gr 9mm at 1050FPS. But my original point was that 230gr .45ACP is also a contender that starts at the size you're hoping the 9mm will expand to (almost) under ideal conditions, before it expands. We're talking about a wounding mechanism of poking a hole. Bigger the better. But the hole has to hit something vital. So if you can't make the accurate hit you are not solving the problem. The point of expansion in subsonic rounds is to make a bigger hole and reduce overpenetration. Once you penetrate through the target energy is not contributing to taking down the target. If anything it now becomes a concern for family in the house, neighbors or bystanders. This is where the light fast 5.56 has an advantage. But it doesn't really play into the discussion since we're talking about hearing safe. |
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I feel like someone is forgetting that 380acp energy or not, the MP5SD has dropped a LOT of bodies over the years... It's far above adequate for HD Speaking of which, check out the BRT CAR15-SD. Micah Mayfield has a video on it. It's probably has the best noise to dollar ratio for something that's HD appropriate that I'm aware of |
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Originally Posted By dblazevich: I feel like someone is forgetting that 380acp energy or not, the MP5SD has dropped a LOT of bodies over the years... It's far above adequate for HD Speaking of which, check out the BRT CAR15-SD. Micah Mayfield has a video on it. It's probably has the best noise to dollar ratio for something that's HD appropriate that I'm aware of The 5.7 or 4.6 are the same thing. Even .22lr will kill someone just as dead as anything else. None of those would be my first choice as a personal semi-auto HD platform though. |
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Originally Posted By dblazevich: I feel like someone is forgetting that 380acp energy or not, the MP5SD has dropped a LOT of bodies over the years... It's far above adequate for HD Speaking of which, check out the BRT CAR15-SD. Micah Mayfield has a video on it. It's probably has the best noise to dollar ratio for something that's HD appropriate that I'm aware of  This PCC Has No Business being THIS good - The CAR-15 SD |
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Originally Posted By jaqufrost: Screw subsonic pistol caliber nonsense. If you have a high probability of you or your families life on the line, bring a rifle. . . . Hearing doesn't matter if you're dead. A suppressor might not just save your hearing - it might save your life. Because 0-30 minutes after you use it, some people are likely to be at your door yelling instructions at you. There is no "No Shoot" target for a kid and a man with a gun where the man with the gun is the kid's dad who just saved him. You're going to be flat out deaf for a little while. I shot a Para P10 under a tin roof once - no walls just a roof - and it was 20-30 minutes before the waterfall faded enough that I could hear anything at all, and a good hour before the ringing faded into the background. There is a very good chance that 10 minutes after you shoot that the gun could go from being the reason you're still alive to being the reason you're dead. |
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Originally Posted By FrankDrebin: Don't sleep on a CZ Scorpion pistol with a brace. I have one and it is very quiet suppressed. That sounds very uncomfortable. I've slept w/ an M4 before and I didn't like that either. |
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Originally Posted By VaFish: Only a miniscule number of people fire a gun inside their hime in self-defense. If you are one of those few, prioritize your safety over your hearing and use the most effective caliber you can. One or two shots unsuppressed inside your home will nitnleave you permanently and totally deaf. Look at how many soldiers were kicking in doors, throwing grenades and firing shots inside buildings with no hearing protection. Yep they got tinnitus, yep they wear hearing aides, but they get along just fine, and thatsnafter many many many shots not just one or two. And to answer your question, shooting a gun indoors the only option that won't damage your hearing is a suppressed .22 LR rifle. Agree. OP, your mk18 is fine, same some money. |
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Most of us have a layered approach to defense. 1. My Glock 17.5 has optic, suppressor and a 22rd extended magazine, 147gr Silvertip Hollow Points (they were on sale, they’re accurate and reliably feed the suppressed Glock…don’t judge me!). That’s on my nightstand for “immediate” bedtime defense, or the evil, rabid dusty bunny under the bed 2. Behind that nightstand is a Kel-Tech KSG fully loaded with plenty of joy as a little “diversity” response tool and more about barricading and firing two shells seven times to scare off intruders. 3. Behind that, in the walk-in closet, I keep a much more conventional Mossberg 590A1, just in case my self-defense makes the interweb discussion boards and I don’t want to get embarrassed with pictures of the KSG. 4. Under my EDC gear platform, I have both a suppressed 9mm PCC and 5.56mm AR SBR (along with the obligatory battle belt and plate carrier. The PCC is for actual use in the home if I have to go find out that the dog drug a pissed off possum or raccoon through the doggy door. 5. If I have to go outside and disrupt the wild mating cats in the barn, I’ll take the suppressed AR15/SBR (soon to be .300BO which may replace both AR and PCC) with an IR LAM and NV. There are no neighbors to really disrupt but seeing a mid-50’s guy in his boxers, ACH/MICH helmet with night vision, rocking nothing but the boxers, flip flops, and plate carrier will scare any pack of coyotes, infrequent bear, or wild mating kitties long before I need to flip the switch to full FRT dispersal mode. Now, I just need to figure out how to work my ML37, 37mm launcher into the home defense plan. Maybe some flares to lighten up the night so I don’t have to go get patrolling in the buff? Sorry, just explaining my five (soon to be six?) layers of home defense firearms. Back to the ballistics discussion. Pics (without the boxers) coming soon. ROCK6 |
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants" - Thomas Jefferson
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Originally Posted By ROCK6: Most of us have a layered approach to defense. 1. My Glock 17.5 has optic, suppressor and a 22rd extended magazine, 147gr Silvertip Hollow Points (they were on sale, they're accurate and reliably feed the suppressed Glock don't judge me!). That's on my nightstand for "immediate" bedtime defense, or the evil, rabid dusty bunny under the bed 2. Behind that nightstand is a Kel-Tech KSG fully loaded with plenty of joy as a little "diversity" response tool and more about barricading and firing two shells seven times to scare off intruders. 3. Behind that, in the walk-in closet, I keep a much more conventional Mossberg 590A1, just in case my self-defense makes the interweb discussion boards and I don't want to get embarrassed with pictures of the KSG. 4. Under my EDC gear platform, I have both a suppressed 9mm PCC and 5.56mm AR SBR (along with the obligatory battle belt and plate carrier. The PCC is for actual use in the home if I have to go find out that the dog drug a pissed off possum or raccoon through the doggy door. 5. If I have to go outside and disrupt the wild mating cats in the barn, I'll take the suppressed AR15/SBR (soon to be .300BO which may replace both AR and PCC) with an IR LAM and NV. There are no neighbors to really disrupt but seeing a mid-50's guy in his boxers, ACH/MICH helmet with night vision, rocking nothing but the boxers, flip flops, and plate carrier will scare any pack of coyotes, infrequent bear, or wild mating kitties long before I need to flip the switch to full FRT dispersal mode. Now, I just need to figure out how to work my ML37, 37mm launcher into the home defense plan. Maybe some flares to lighten up the night so I don't have to go get patrolling in the buff? Sorry, just explaining my five (soon to be six?) layers of home defense firearms. Back to the ballistics discussion. Pics (without the boxers) coming soon. ROCK6 Attached File |
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Originally Posted By Daggertt: Got you covered in the pics. Don't ask how I got this. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/435611/72806_jpg-3750755.JPG 
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants" - Thomas Jefferson
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PCC are range toys--great for wives and children. Pistol calibers are for pistols, giving you concealed/convenient firepower outside the home. Pistols poke holes; rifles tear things apart. When concealment is not a concern use the best tool available--a rifle. In close quarters use a suppressed SBR. It's not complicated. |
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Originally Posted By Curare: PCC are range toys--great for wives and children. Pistol calibers are for pistols, giving you concealed/convenient firepower outside the home. Pistols poke holes; rifles tear things apart. When concealment is not a concern use the best tool available--a rifle. In close quarters use a suppressed SBR. It's not complicated. Rubbish. PCC are fine for home defense, and don't have the disadvantage of blasting through your house walls and into your neighbors. Besides, he already has a suppressed rifle caliber weapon, and asked about PCC's. It's a hoot how you can specifically ask about something here, and people just randomly try telling you what to do. "What burger place is the best?" "Burgers suck, I eat chicken sandwiches." Back to the topic - .300 BO with subs and suppressed is very, very quiet. Bullets traditionally have served as .30 caliber ice picks, but Sig has a loading that's well regarded. If you already have a 30 caliber suppressor then you can use it here, otherwise you'll need to get one to take advantage of the round. An AR in 9mm is another option. You'll hear people complain about the, checks notes, recoil of a 9mm rifle that weighs 6 pounds, because somehow direct blowback turns in into a .458 Win mag. My Colt AR 9mm has always performed well, and I've used it with a suppressor without any issues. Lots of other versions as well. Main decision on AR 9mm is to use the Glock mag system, or the Colt. The Colt's double stack at the top is better for a AR - it's why the AR-15 has a double stack and not funneling it up to a single stack at the top. But the Glock versions seem to be fine. If you have a lot of Glocks then that might be a good choice. |
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Originally Posted By BULLDAWG_556: I settled on a Zenith ZF-5 with red dot, light, sling, and a can. Running 147 grain Gold Dots. I was not overly impressed with the penetration and minimal expansion from 300BO subs. Then you were not using the right ammo. That being said, at home defense distances a 9mm, 10mm or 45 acp PDW is fine. Here is an expanded Makers 200gr REX from a 10" 300blk at 975fps. Attached File |
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Originally Posted By 1stID: Rubbish. PCC are fine for home defense, and don't have the disadvantage of blasting through your house walls and into your neighbors. Besides, he already has a suppressed rifle caliber weapon, and asked about PCC's. It's a hoot how you can specifically ask about something here, and people just randomly try telling you what to do. "What burger place is the best?" "Burgers suck, I eat chicken sandwiches." Back to the topic - .300 BO with subs and suppressed is very, very quiet. Bullets traditionally have served as .30 caliber ice picks, but Sig has a loading that's well regarded. If you already have a 30 caliber suppressor then you can use it here, otherwise you'll need to get one to take advantage of the round. Handgun round overpenetration compared to lightweight faster bullets through home building materials has been demonstrated plenty of times. Your understanding is inaccurate. |
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9mm much less .45 rounds are stopped by a Level IIA vest, while 5.56mm needs Level IV, due to its smaller cross sectional area as well as its doubled velocity. But apparently drywall and plywood are its kryptonite, or something. Someone’s misinformed, might want to check closer to home. |
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Originally Posted By 1stID: 9mm much less .45 rounds are stopped by a Level IIA vest, while 5.56mm needs Level IV, due to its smaller cross sectional area as well as its doubled velocity. But apparently drywall and plywood are its kryptonite, or something. Someone's misinformed, might want to check closer to home. Obviously, bullet construction is a huge part of this and a barrier blind ammunition is not likely to break up like a 55gr FMJ or soft point from Hornady. |
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Originally Posted By 1stID: 9mm much less .45 rounds are stopped by a Level IIA vest, while 5.56mm needs Level IV, due to its smaller cross sectional area as well as its doubled velocity. But apparently drywall and plywood are its kryptonite, or something. Someone's misinformed, might want to check closer to home. However in testing, lightweight 556 typically goes through fewer layers than 9mm or 45. The whole "pcc is better for HD because it is so effective at killing bad guys but it won't go through the walls into your neighbor's house like a rifle round would" is just ill informed gun counter nonsense. The most logical approach to the subject is to leave overpenetration behind with stopping power as a caliber selection criteria because all effective HD calibers will punch through multiple walls in your home. At best, 9mm isn't functionally any less dangerous to your neighbors than 556. At worst it's more dangerous. A knife will also pierce a pistol-rated kevlar vest. Does that mean it will go penetrate more wood and drywall than 9mm? Drywall isn't kevlar so the comparison isn't relevant. What IS clear in performance comparisons is that 556 is statistically more effective in physically stopping a threat with fewer round than 9mm. (And in general supersonic is more effective at this than subsonic) |
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5.56mm bullets have under half the cross sectional area of a 9mm, over twice the velocity, and 3 times the muzzle energy of a 9mm round. They sail through Level IIA body armor, yet 9mm bullets don't. Any first pass estimate of bullet penetration though household building materials would lend you to believe a 5.56mm has much more penetration than 9mm. If you have links to actual independent testing of 5.56mm penetration in household products then I'd be interesting in following those, cuz otherwise it sounds like "Did you know in Vietnam, a blade of grass would deflect the bullet from a M16, while AK rounds would smash through dense jungle foliage.' You yourself talk about how much more powerful a 5.56mm rifle is over a PCC, yet, according to what you had yourself write, it doesn't penetrate as much, somehow. Or suddenly, maybe both do, doesn't matter anymore, get a 5.56mm! Again, the OP asked about what PCC to get, not what caliber to buy. It's such a hoot reading here "What's the best cut of steak?" "Forget steak, fish is better!" |
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Ruger LC carbine in .45ACP, remove extended handguard, cut barrel, add suppressor, buy extended Glock mags for it. Cheaper to feed, and as good or better of terminal ballistics compared to .300BO subs. No "oh, where do I find that expensive boutique ammo that actually expands and performs subsonic", you just buy some 230 grain HSTs (+p if you want) and call it a day. |
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Originally Posted By 1stID: 5.56mm bullets have under half the cross sectional area of a 9mm, over twice the velocity, and 3 times the muzzle energy of a 9mm round. They sail through Level IIA body armor, yet 9mm bullets don't. Any first pass estimate of bullet penetration though household building materials would lend you to believe a 5.56mm has much more penetration than 9mm. If you have links to actual independent testing of 5.56mm penetration in household products then I'd be interesting in following those, cuz otherwise it sounds like "Did you know in Vietnam, a blade of grass would deflect the bullet from a M16, while AK rounds would smash through dense jungle foliage.' You yourself talk about how much more powerful a 5.56mm rifle is over a PCC, yet, according to what you had yourself write, it doesn't penetrate as much, somehow. Or suddenly, maybe both do, doesn't matter anymore, get a 5.56mm! Again, the OP asked about what PCC to get, not what caliber to buy. It's such a hoot reading here "What's the best cut of steak?" "Forget steak, fish is better!" Attached File There is a ton of available data if you actually want to look. Spoiler alert, the results show: It should be obvious that any caliber that will penetrate enough to reliably stop a human threat will eat the lunch of sheetrock and wood, so it's a functionally pointless distinction criteria. However in testing, lightweight 556 typically goes through fewer layers than 9mm or 45. And as another poster said: Most 5.56 is fairly fragile in design relative to the bullets velocity. I certainly wouldn't want to be standing behind a sheetrock wall after a 5.56 goes through it, but put a couple layers of drywall and a hundred feet of deadspace for the bullet fragments to decelerate and your odds are better than the same layers of drywall and the still intact 9mm. Obviously, bullet construction is a huge part of this and a barrier blind ammunition is not likely to break up like a 55gr FMJ or soft point from Hornady. Oh and you might want to review the thread title and original post. OP didn't ask what PCC to get. Attached File |
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So random YouTube videos, include G Thumb? I like Mike's videos, but there's nothing he does that's analytic or methodical. The others look even worse. Pass. Don't know who Clark is either, and don't care. The OP specially said he didn't want a 5.56mm, and wanted something subsonic. And in the finest traditions of recommending chicken sandwiches to someone who asks about burgers, you recommend a supersonic 5.56mm, which is most certainly, not hearing safe, but apparently penetrates less than bullets that are bigger, slower, have have less muzzle energy, who knew! Have the last word here if you wish, it's gotten boring and doesn't contribute to the OP's question, certainly nothing you've posted has. |
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Originally Posted By 1stID: So random YouTube videos, include G Thumb? I like Mike's videos, but there's nothing he does that's analytic or methodical. The others look even worse. Pass. Don't know who Clark is either, and don't care. The OP specially said he didn't want a 5.56mm, and wanted something subsonic. And in the finest traditions of recommending chicken sandwiches to someone who asks about burgers, you recommend a supersonic 5.56mm, which is most certainly, not hearing safe, but apparently penetrates less than bullets that are bigger, slower, have have less muzzle energy, who knew! Have the last word here if you wish, it's gotten boring and doesn't contribute to the OP's question, certainly nothing you've posted has. We have given it. And yeah, is literally not rocket science to shoot bullets through walls to see how many walls a bullet goes through.  If those tests aren't up to your strict standards of scientific rigor I guess you'll just have to be satisfied in your incredulous ignorance on the subject. Thanks for giving me the last word because you're now bored of the discussion, otherwise we might conclude you conceded your points. 
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I just got my first pistol suppressor. Put it on my 1911 and was surprised how loud it was. Just built a 300 BO AR with a 7.5 inch barrel. Used my Dead Aire Nomad 30 in it. Again...loud. That same Nomad 30 is mousefart quiet on my 20 inch barreled .308 with subs. |
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