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Posted: 12/22/2025 11:22:05 PM EDT
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Looking for a PDW that's hearing safe. Currently have a suppressed 5.56 mk18, but that's not hearing safe, so probably looking at subsonics now. 300 blackout or pistol caliber for subs? specific recommendations? |
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Originally Posted By bulldog1967: B&T APC9 Pro with matching suppressor. 9mm  B&T's APC9K SD | Integrally Suppressed Very sweet looking, but MSRP is like 6k 
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never underestimate the stupidity of other people
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If I have to fire a rifle inside the house I’m prettt much more looking for the most reasonable amount of energy over quiet. So 300 supers for me, but with a can. That said a good 300 shooting subs, 45 or 9mm subs are all pretty quiet. My vote would be the platform you’re most familiar with. |
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Only a miniscule number of people fire a gun inside their hime in self-defense. If you are one of those few, prioritize your safety over your hearing and use the most effective caliber you can. One or two shots unsuppressed inside your home will nitnleave you permanently and totally deaf. Look at how many soldiers were kicking in doors, throwing grenades and firing shots inside buildings with no hearing protection. Yep they got tinnitus, yep they wear hearing aides, but they get along just fine, and thatsnafter many many many shots not just one or two. And to answer your question, shooting a gun indoors the only option that won't damage your hearing is a suppressed .22 LR rifle. |
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Originally Posted By VaFish: Only a miniscule number of people fire a gun inside their hime in self-defense. If you are one of those few, prioritize your safety over your hearing and use the most effective caliber you can. One or two shots unsuppressed inside your home will nitnleave you permanently and totally deaf. Look at how many soldiers were kicking in doors, throwing grenades and firing shots inside buildings with no hearing protection. Yep they got tinnitus, yep they wear hearing aides, but they get along just fine, and thatsnafter many many many shots not just one or two. And to answer your question, shooting a gun indoors the only option that won't damage your hearing is a suppressed .22 LR rifle. https://thunderbeastarms.com/sound/summit2025/#RESULTS Suppressed 9mm (last section on the results) is below the threshold of causing permanent hearing damage, which is when the dB reaches 140. Thanks for the responses, I'm looking at getting a 9mm PDW. Maybe the B&T. Buy once cry once. |
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Originally Posted By Nintendo64: https://thunderbeastarms.com/sound/summit2025/#RESULTS Suppressed 9mm (last section on the results) is below the threshold of causing permanent hearing damage, which is when the dB reaches 140. Thanks for the responses, I'm looking at getting a 9mm PDW. Maybe the B&T. Buy once cry once. Originally Posted By Nintendo64: Originally Posted By VaFish: Only a miniscule number of people fire a gun inside their hime in self-defense. If you are one of those few, prioritize your safety over your hearing and use the most effective caliber you can. One or two shots unsuppressed inside your home will nitnleave you permanently and totally deaf. Look at how many soldiers were kicking in doors, throwing grenades and firing shots inside buildings with no hearing protection. Yep they got tinnitus, yep they wear hearing aides, but they get along just fine, and thatsnafter many many many shots not just one or two. And to answer your question, shooting a gun indoors the only option that won't damage your hearing is a suppressed .22 LR rifle. https://thunderbeastarms.com/sound/summit2025/#RESULTS Suppressed 9mm (last section on the results) is below the threshold of causing permanent hearing damage, which is when the dB reaches 140. Thanks for the responses, I'm looking at getting a 9mm PDW. Maybe the B&T. Buy once cry once. You are ignoring good advice. 5.56mm is FAR more terminally effective than 9mm. Like, it's not even close. 9mm is the wrong choice for your stated goals. Now, if you just want a bunch of people to gas you up and talk about cool 9mm builds, there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. But you ASKED for advice on the best choice for home defense and 9mm (or any pistol cartridge) is a non-starter there. |
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Originally Posted By chopinbloc: You are ignoring good advice. 5.56mm is FAR more terminally effective than 9mm. Like, it's not even close. 9mm is the wrong choice for your stated goals. Now, if you just want a bunch of people to gas you up and talk about cool 9mm builds, there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. But you ASKED for advice on the best choice for home defense and 9mm (or any pistol cartridge) is a non-starter there. I asked for a PDW that's hearing safe. I have a mk18 with a suppressor and that's not a PDW--it's basically a full size rifle. Also very loud. I am fine with using subsonic ammo for home defense. I know a lot of people do in their 300 blackout builds. If I cared so much about ballistics and didn't care about how loud it was, I would use a 6.5 Creedmoor 14.5" unsuppressed. |
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Originally Posted By Nintendo64: I asked for a PDW that's hearing safe. I have a mk18 with a suppressor and that's not a PDW--it's basically a full size rifle. Also very loud. I am fine with using subsonic ammo for home defense. I know a lot of people do in their 300 blackout builds. If I cared so much about ballistics and didn't care about how loud it was, I would use a 6.5 Creedmoor 14.5" unsuppressed. No. You aren't. Physics don't physics differently for you. The correct answer to the question you asked is a short AR or similar, chambered in 5.56mm or other intermediate cartridge. Also acceptable if budget prohibits an AR is a shotgun in 12ga. But handgun ammo is suboptimal for the reasons stated above. Just be honest with yourself. You want a fun 9mm gun. That's okay. It's not the best choice for defense, though. |
...our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor
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Originally Posted By Nintendo64: https://thunderbeastarms.com/sound/summit2025/#RESULTS Suppressed 9mm (last section on the results) is below the threshold of causing permanent hearing damage, which is when the dB reaches 140. Thanks for the responses, I'm looking at getting a 9mm PDW. Maybe the B&T. Buy once cry once. That's for one shot when fired out in an open space. Get inside with walls that reflect sound, fire a few shots, and you get different results. You will still damage your hearing shooting suppressed inside, unless you are shooting .22 LR. Yes a suppressed 9mm will damage your hearing less than a unsuppressed 5.56. But it's not hearing safe. |
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You won't be hearing safe inside a house even with subs and a can. Shit is loud. Outside subs with a CNA can be pleasant but now put yourself in a box that holds all the pressure in. It really is surprising how loud quiet rifles are even in a kill house without a ceiling. You should fire off a few rounds in a barn or shed or similar so you get an idea. It'll be worse inside your house. |
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I just keep a set of muffs next to every home defense gun. A 300 BLK pistol or SBR with subsonic rounds and a good can should be pretty good. Or even a .22 pistol with a can can be good if you can get the rounds reliably on target. |
Feb 2025 It’s 48 to 0 and we’re only 2 minutes into the first quarter
trobertson5-0 I wasn't put in jail for what I did. I was put in it for what I think. There were FBI agents posting in my threads. I've seen the discovery showing this.
trobertson5-0 I wasn't put in jail for what I did. I was put in it for what I think. There were FBI agents posting in my threads. I've seen the discovery showing this.
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Originally Posted By BULLDAWG_556: I settled on a Zenith ZF-5 with red dot, light, sling, and a can. Running 147 grain Gold Dots. I was not overly impressed with the penetration and minimal expansion from 300BO subs. Mine runs 124 grain gold dots like a champ. I just wish they locked back on empty and it was easier to tell if the magazine is locked in or not. This is the same with all mp5s though. |
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Originally Posted By Nintendo64: I asked for a PDW that's hearing safe. I have a mk18 with a suppressor and that's not a PDW--it's basically a full size rifle. Also very loud. I am fine with using subsonic ammo for home defense. I know a lot of people do in their 300 blackout builds. If I cared so much about ballistics and didn't care about how loud it was, I would use a 6.5 Creedmoor 14.5" unsuppressed. There's not much difference between 9mm or 45 but jump up to supersonic 300blk or 556 and it's a different category of damage and carnage. The jump from 300blk to 14.5" 6.5cm isn't probably as significant but you would be giving up maneuverability and magazine capacity compared to a small 300blk so it wouldn't be a great option for HD either. Here my 7" 300blk Attached File This is much better than a 9mm ballistically but without trading off too much in size or weight. |
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Originally Posted By Nintendo64: Looking for a PDW that's hearing safe. Currently have a suppressed 5.56 mk18, but that's not hearing safe, so probably looking at subsonics now. 300 blackout or pistol caliber for subs? specific recommendations? Otherwise for subsonic exclusively, 9mm is much cheaper to shoot and has a wider selection of ammo to choose from. It's also arguably quieter with factory ammo. Though particular gun and suppressor are huge factors. BTW, if you want quiet, don't use straight blowback for a suppressed gun. Regarding the particular guns, I use Federal 147gr HSTs in either my AP-5P, or one of my two home built delayed blowback AR15s. One is using a CMMG Banshee upper, the other is using a Mean Arms upper. Honestly, I can't tell a difference in the sound between these using my Wolfman Suppressor and good subsonic ammo. They are all very quiet.   |
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Originally Posted By chopinbloc: You are ignoring good advice. 5.56mm is FAR more terminally effective than 9mm. Like, it's not even close. 9mm is the wrong choice for your stated goals. Now, if you just want a bunch of people to gas you up and talk about cool 9mm builds, there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. But you ASKED for advice on the best choice for home defense and 9mm (or any pistol cartridge) is a non-starter there. Originally Posted By chopinbloc: You are ignoring good advice. 5.56mm is FAR more terminally effective than 9mm. Like, it's not even close. 9mm is the wrong choice for your stated goals. Now, if you just want a bunch of people to gas you up and talk about cool 9mm builds, there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. But you ASKED for advice on the best choice for home defense and 9mm (or any pistol cartridge) is a non-starter there. Originally Posted By Daggertt: ... in truth there's a big jump in lethality from handgun-level calibers (including subsonic 300blk) to rifle calibers. There's not much difference between 9mm or 45 but jump up to supersonic 300blk or 556 and it's a different category of damage and carnage.. Despite my post above, I keep a 10.3" 5.56 SBR with a Griffin Recce or a 12.5" with a Recce K as my first choice of ready rifle. The 9mms are for pest control (but mostly for fun ). |
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Originally Posted By chopinbloc: You are ignoring good advice. 5.56mm is FAR more terminally effective than 9mm. Like, it's not even close. 9mm is the wrong choice for your stated goals. Now, if you just want a bunch of people to gas you up and talk about cool 9mm builds, there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. But you ASKED for advice on the best choice for home defense and 9mm (or any pistol cartridge) is a non-starter there. |
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The 5.56mm and rifle crowd in general are out in force and quoting the superior terminal ballistics of those rifle rounds. They are not wrong, but they are a bit narrow in their thinking. As you know suppressing a 5.56 is relative and at the end of the can it's still loud and not hearing safe, especially in a confined area. Could you do better with a sub sonic round like the .300 Blackout? For noise sure. But when it comes to terminal ballistics it's any more effective than a 9mm. You have similar penetration results when comparing 9mm sub sonics and .300 BO sub sonics. The sub sonic .300 BO has around 400-450 ft pounds of energy. Consider for a minute that with a 115 gr XTP or V-crown I can get an average of 1440 fps from an MP5, using a fairly slow burning powder like HS-6. That's 540 ft pounds, adding about 100-150 ft pounds over .300 BO numbers, and when suppressed, even with the sonic crack it's total noise is less than that created by the 55,000 psi .300 BO. With a 124 gr XTP or V-Crown the velocity drops to 1350 fps and 512 ft pounds. With a 147 gr hollow point at 1050 fps, its down to normal 9mm energy numbers around 360 ft pounds, but quiet. In my experience any of the above loads are superior to or at least not significantly less effective than a .300 BO for home defense. Other factors: - Outside the home the supersonic, suppressed 5.56mm has the edge as it still has enough velocity to defeat IIIa body armor. In the home, you'll have to assess whether armor penetration is important to you at all, and if so, whether it's more important than having a hearing safe load. You can't have both. - 9mm is a lot cheaper to practice with. If your plan is to buy a couple boxes of your home defense round, load them up and then never shoot it, the .300 BO is just fine. If on the other hand you plan to train with it on a regular basis and get good with it, 9mm is a lot more budget friendly.  
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Originally Posted By DakotaFAL: The 5.56mm and rifle crowd in general are out in force and quoting the superior terminal ballistics of those rifle rounds. They are not wrong, but they are a bit narrow in their thinking. As you know suppressing a 5.56 is relative and at the end of the can it's still loud and not hearing safe, especially in a confined area. Could you do better with a sub sonic round like the .300 Blackout? For noise sure. But when it comes to terminal ballistics it's any more effective than a 9mm. You have similar penetration results when comparing 9mm sub sonics and .300 BO sub sonics. The sub sonic .300 BO has around 400-450 ft pounds of energy. Consider for a minute that with a 115 gr XTP or V-crown I can get an average of 1440 fps from an MP5, using a fairly slow burning powder like HS-6. That's 540 ft pounds, adding about 100-150 ft pounds over .300 BO numbers, and when suppressed, even with the sonic crack it's total noise is less than that created by the 55,000 psi .300 BO. With a 124 gr XTP or V-Crown the velocity drops to 1350 fps and 512 ft pounds. With a 147 gr hollow point at 1050 fps, its down to normal 9mm energy numbers around 360 ft pounds, but quiet. In my experience any of the above loads are superior to or at least not significantly less effective than a .300 BO for home defense. Other factors: - Outside the home the supersonic, suppressed 5.56mm has the edge as it still has enough velocity to defeat IIIa body armor. In the home, you'll have to assess whether armor penetration is important to you at all, and if so, whether it's more important than having a hearing safe load. You can't have both. - 9mm is a lot cheaper to practice with. If your plan is to buy a couple boxes of your home defense round, load them up and then never shoot it, the .300 BO is just fine. If on the other hand you plan to train with it on a regular basis and get good with it, 9mm is a lot more budget friendly. https://hosting.photobucket.com/202903ec-b502-4aae-bb75-6c22e3c5e4a5/851a2d26-ca77-4ae6-ac99-018ebedce960.png https://hosting.photobucket.com/202903ec-b502-4aae-bb75-6c22e3c5e4a5/bfa64394-3aa9-47bc-ac31-41cec60145ab.jpeg The "rifle crowd" is claiming, backed by data, that rifle rounds are more effective at stopping a threat more quickly with less rounds than any handgun or subsonic rifle round. Not armored threats... just... threats. Greg Ellifritz's study of 1,800 gun shots over 10 years in ERs demonstrated that 9mm and 45 both statistically require more than 2 rounds to stop the threat, compared with centerfire rifle rounds' fewer than 2 required rounds, with significantly different % of first-shot stops. Attached File Attached File Attached File You're correct in saying 9mm is as good ballistically and better logistically than subsonic 300 blk. However, the argument is largely not between those two, which in this thread seem to have been treated as categorically equivalent. It is about rifle velocity rounds vs pistol velocity rounds. If your life is literally on the line, there's wisdom in stacking the deck as much in your favor as possible, even if that might mean sacrificing your hearing - you're even more deaf if you're dead, after all. So if you're statistically more likely to be able to handle a threat more effectively with a rifle velocity round, it's in your favor to bring those to the gunfight. Similar in concept to the idea that .223 Tulammo will kill someone just as dead as Fusion or TAP soft point rounds, but one of those provides better and more reliable performance and therefore more effective lethality, and so while you COULD just load up on cheap steel ammo for HD, such a suggestion wouldn't be considered a prudent choice by anyone taking the defense of their home seriously. In reality though, keep in mind that while we're talking statistics, so few of us will ever actually fire rounds in defense of our home that this debate doesn't matter in even the small-to-medium scheme of things. It's statistically almost guaranteed to be an academic exercise to most of us, and for the very small percentage of us who ever do engage threats in defense of our home, the caliber of choice will likely be almost irrelevant as many threats are stopped psychologically anyway - even if you don't hit the guy, he might quickly decide to be somewhere else or if you hit him non-fatally, he might take himself out of the fight because he was hit. The scenarios when bringing maximum stacked statistical effective lethality to bear makes the difference between living or dying (ie. a strong/drugged up dedicated and fixated opponent or opponents hell-bent on killing you in your home) are comically improbable. So shoot what you want for whatever reasons you want to. |
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Originally Posted By DakotaFAL: The 5.56mm and rifle crowd in general are out in force and quoting the superior terminal ballistics of those rifle rounds. They are not wrong, but they are a bit narrow in their thinking. As you know suppressing a 5.56 is relative and at the end of the can it's still loud and not hearing safe, especially in a confined area. Could you do better with a sub sonic round like the .300 Blackout? For noise sure. But when it comes to terminal ballistics it's any more effective than a 9mm. You have similar penetration results when comparing 9mm sub sonics and .300 BO sub sonics. The sub sonic .300 BO has around 400-450 ft pounds of energy. Consider for a minute that with a 115 gr XTP or V-crown I can get an average of 1440 fps from an MP5, using a fairly slow burning powder like HS-6. That's 540 ft pounds, adding about 100-150 ft pounds over .300 BO numbers, and when suppressed, even with the sonic crack it's total noise is less than that created by the 55,000 psi .300 BO. With a 124 gr XTP or V-Crown the velocity drops to 1350 fps and 512 ft pounds. With a 147 gr hollow point at 1050 fps, its down to normal 9mm energy numbers around 360 ft pounds, but quiet. In my experience any of the above loads are superior to or at least not significantly less effective than a .300 BO for home defense. Other factors: - Outside the home the supersonic, suppressed 5.56mm has the edge as it still has enough velocity to defeat IIIa body armor. In the home, you'll have to assess whether armor penetration is important to you at all, and if so, whether it's more important than having a hearing safe load. You can't have both. - 9mm is a lot cheaper to practice with. If your plan is to buy a couple boxes of your home defense round, load them up and then never shoot it, the .300 BO is just fine. If on the other hand you plan to train with it on a regular basis and get good with it, 9mm is a lot more budget friendly. https://hosting.photobucket.com/202903ec-b502-4aae-bb75-6c22e3c5e4a5/851a2d26-ca77-4ae6-ac99-018ebedce960.png https://hosting.photobucket.com/202903ec-b502-4aae-bb75-6c22e3c5e4a5/bfa64394-3aa9-47bc-ac31-41cec60145ab.jpeg I'm not following this logic. Are you comparing supersonic 9mm to subsonic 300blk for terminal ballistics, while at the same time comparing supersonic 9mm to supersonic 300blk in terms of noise (max PSI)? Ummm, you can't do that. BTW, I'm not sure if supersonic 9mm is all that much better than good subsonic 300blk. Both are subpar compared to supersonic 300blk/5.56/other rifle rounds, and some of the subs available today are pretty kick-ass. If you have a 1-5 twist 300blk, you can rock the Maker Rex 242gr beasts. 1050 fps = 593 ft.lbs of expanding copper. https://phantomdefense.co/300-aac-blackout-big-brother-242-gr-subsonic-maker-rex-nas3-1-5-twist-only-50-ct/ If you don't have a 1-5, you can still get the 200gr Makers Rex's (from them an others). https://phantomdefense.co/300-aac-blackout-slow-papi-200-gr-subsonic-maker-rex-nas3-50-ct/ (490 ft.lbs of expanding copper). I got their 220 Maker Rex's (bottom right - 529 ft.lbs) that they made for awhile before the switched over to 238 and 242 Makers instead of the 220's.  BTW, "some" 300blk subs can defeat IIIA armor (Fort Scott TUI for sure).  Supersonic 300blk gets through with ease (110gr V-max - bottom right hole going in, bottom left coming out).   Carried the fibers through the ballistic fibers through the first ballistic rubber panel backstop and took a chunk out of the second rubber panel. The projectile and fragments are still in the bullet trap.   If you are going to run something the size of an MP5, there is almost no reason to not run 300blk (outside of ammo cost). Maybe OP should consider .45 in some sort of chassis if truly invested in subs in the smallest package? |
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1 What can you afford to train with? What do you have the opportunity to train with? Cool toys don’t matter if you can’t shoot. 2 supers with a suppressor will be loud, but not “oh my gosh I’m completely deaf now” loud. 3. This is still America and you can buy cool guns just for the hell of it. That is good enough justification if that’s all you have. |
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Everybody knows rifle calibers are more damaging than pistol calibers. That’s not even a question. But to say that pistol calibers are not effective for home defense is just ridiculous. If pistol calibers were not effective in stopping bad guys, why are so many people killed every year with pistols? Why do police carry them? Why do millions of law abiding citizens carry them every day. There’s always a balance between convenience and effectiveness. I certainly wouldn’t want to fire a short barrel 5.56 in the confines of a house. I’ve shot them outside and it’s deafening. Can’t even imagine the concussion of shooting one in an enclosed room or hallway. Suppressors on a PCC or .300 BLK will still be loud inside, but not enough to blow your ears out. And if they are effective enough for people who carry pistols everywhere they go, the will certainly be effective enough in a home defense situation… |
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Originally Posted By VaFish: Only a miniscule number of people fire a gun inside their hime in self-defense. If you are one of those few, prioritize your safety over your hearing and use the most effective caliber you can. One or two shots unsuppressed inside your home will nitnleave you permanently and totally deaf. Look at how many soldiers were kicking in doors, throwing grenades and firing shots inside buildings with no hearing protection. Yep they got tinnitus, yep they wear hearing aides, but they get along just fine, and thatsnafter many many many shots not just one or two. And to answer your question, shooting a gun indoors the only option that won't damage your hearing is a suppressed .22 LR rifle. OSHA hearing safe is 140db, 300BO subsonic suppressed is often as low as 132-133db |
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Originally Posted By DH2: Ruger LCC in .45 ACP. SBR at your leisure if you want it more pdw-y. But if you want hearing safe semi auto, .45 subs are hard to beat for suppression and the smallest hole they can make is .45. Originally Posted By DH2: Ruger LCC in .45 ACP. SBR at your leisure if you want it more pdw-y. But if you want hearing safe semi auto, .45 subs are hard to beat for suppression and the smallest hole they can make is .45. I agree. 45acp hst is likely to expand more reliably than almost all subsonic 300BO. A 0.95" hole beats a 0.308" hole. Originally Posted By Deerhurst: You won't be hearing safe inside a house even with subs and a can. Shit is loud. Outside subs with a CNA can be pleasant but now put yourself in a box that holds all the pressure in. It really is surprising how loud quiet rifles are even in a kill house without a ceiling. You should fire off a few rounds in a barn or shed or similar so you get an idea. It'll be worse inside your house. I found shooting in a 10-bay 50yd indoor range to be tolerable without ear pro with suppressed 300BO subs. As opposed to even a suppressed mk18 using a full size can, which was unpleasant even with ear pro |
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Originally Posted By bballman25: Everybody knows rifle calibers are more damaging than pistol calibers. That's not even a question. But to say that pistol calibers are not effective for home defense is just ridiculous. If pistol calibers were not effective in stopping bad guys, why are so many people killed every year with pistols? Why do police carry them? Why do millions of law abiding citizens carry them every day. There's always a balance between convenience and effectiveness. I certainly wouldn't want to fire a short barrel 5.56 in the confines of a house. I've shot them outside and it's deafening. Can't even imagine the concussion of shooting one in an enclosed room or hallway. Suppressors on a PCC or .300 BLK will still be loud inside, but not enough to blow your ears out. And if they are effective enough for people who carry pistols everywhere they go, the will certainly be effective enough in a home defense situation When someone wants to have a gun on hand during the pursuit of their daily activities but aren't actively headed into a violent situation where gunplay is expected, they sacrifice effectiveness/lethality for convenience. Police officers carrying pistols aren't heading into a gunfight. They are interacting with citizens, taking notes, solving problems, etc. Civilians carrying handguns are going to home depot or out to eat with their families. They don't want to carry a rifle, but would rather have something less effective than nothing at all. Less effective. No one in this thread is saying "not effective." Handguns kill people, obviously. But there are LOTS of anecdotal stories, in addition to the statistics I've already posted, that demonstrate that handguns aren't the best tool for the job of stopping a threat - such as stories of people getting hit 15-20+ times by handgun rounds and surviving and even continuing the fight. Also - actually hitting the target is significantly harder with a pistol as well - which frequent police shooting hit percentage stats will attest.  ATTACKED! Shot Back! CRAZY Real Story Shot 15 times with 45 ACP How did he live? https://www.smh.com.au/world/man-survives-after-being-shot-21-times-in-gunfight-20100810-11ukw.html If a police officer is knowingly or potentially heading into a gunfight, guess what he grabs out of his trunk if possible?  And the discussion in this thread has become - if a civilian hears someone trying to kick in his front door at 1am with his kids sleeping across the house, "what would it make the most sense for him to grab to defend his family?" And a lot of people are saying, "you're giving up lethality and increased effectiveness by choosing to defend your home with a handgun-level caliber - for the upside of attempting to save a debatable and unmeasurable % of your hearing, which is an objectively poor tradeoff." |
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Screw subsonic pistol caliber nonsense. If you have a high probability of you or your families life on the line, bring a rifle. My choice is 90gr Gold Dots at 2400FPS from an 8" barrel. It takes 1/3rd of a second to put five in the A zone at room clearing distances. Hearing doesn't matter if you're dead. Attached File |
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Originally Posted By green_bullet: OSHA hearing safe is 140db, 300BO subsonic suppressed is often as low as 132-133db Where is that measured? Muzzle? Ear? In a bedroom sized room? Outside? My best guess would be outside at the ear. That would be the quietest for advertising. Decibels is a measure of pressure/energy. It'll be significantly higher in a small area. Nothing you touch off in the house will be hearing safe. |
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Originally Posted By jaqufrost: Screw subsonic pistol caliber nonsense. If you have a high probability of you or your families life on the line, bring a rifle. My choice is 90gr Gold Dots at 2400FPS from an 8" barrel. It takes 1/3rd of a second to put five in the A zone at room clearing distances. Hearing doesn't matter if you're dead. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/57761/1000022747_jpg-3684906.JPG I like the way you think. |
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JAFOM.... Just another fat old man.
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Originally Posted By jaqufrost: Screw subsonic pistol caliber nonsense. If you have a high probability of you or your families life on the line, bring a rifle. My choice is 90gr Gold Dots at 2400FPS from an 8" barrel. It takes 1/3rd of a second to put five in the A zone at room clearing distances. Hearing doesn't matter if you're dead. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/57761/1000022747_jpg-3684906.JPG This right here. Pistol calibers have poor terminal ballistic performance and are not to be the primary choice for serious business. After the past 5 years we have a huge influx of foriegn hoodrats pioneering third world crime tactics with signal jammers, body armor, and comms. OP - what kind of can is on your mk18? I would dispense with all of this silliness and upgrade the can if something quieter exists and be done. |
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Originally Posted By Nintendo64: Looking for a PDW that's hearing safe. Currently have a suppressed 5.56 mk18, but that's not hearing safe, so probably looking at subsonics now. 300 blackout or pistol caliber for subs? specific recommendations? What will a .300 subsonic do for you in a house that a 147gr. 9mm won’t? Both will blow thru a human torso, the .300 will be louder suppressed, cost a lot more to train with, and frankly isn’t nearly as quiet as the industry would have you believe. Honestly, a 9mm in a chassis like the B&T USW-G would be really damned good for your use case. |
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"Some People Are Like Slinkies. They're Not Really Good For Anything, But They Bring a Smile To Your Face When Pushed Down The Stairs."
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Originally Posted By TheOtherDave: What will a .300 subsonic do for you in a house that a 147gr. 9mm won’t? Both will blow thru a human torso, the .300 will be louder suppressed, cost a lot more to train with, and frankly isn’t nearly as quiet as the industry would have you believe. Honestly, a 9mm in a chassis like the B&T USW-G would be really damned good for your use case. Originally Posted By TheOtherDave: Originally Posted By Nintendo64: Looking for a PDW that's hearing safe. Currently have a suppressed 5.56 mk18, but that's not hearing safe, so probably looking at subsonics now. 300 blackout or pistol caliber for subs? specific recommendations? What will a .300 subsonic do for you in a house that a 147gr. 9mm won’t? Both will blow thru a human torso, the .300 will be louder suppressed, cost a lot more to train with, and frankly isn’t nearly as quiet as the industry would have you believe. Honestly, a 9mm in a chassis like the B&T USW-G would be really damned good for your use case. If your looking for subsonic only, suppressed in a small pdw then .45 acp is the answer. Bigger hole and naturally subsonic. |
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You have made the decision (at least partially) since you're looking for hearing safe. That effectively means subsonic. By definition this excludes full power rifle calibers and means a compromise in "knockdown power" or "effectiveness" Fundamentally the purpose of the round is to put a hole in the target, in something vital. Assuming you can get hits on vitals there are only a few other variables to be addressed: You have selected slow, this means pure crush injury to tissue (cavitation will not be a component) Energy is misleading because anything that isn't stopped by the target doesn't transfer 100% of the energy to the target. The answer is Slow and Fat. But these rounds are not sexy currently. But look at history. 45 Colt, 45 ACP, hell the Minie ball were all subsonic but the major man killers of their day. 45 ACP is the easy button because it generally does't go supersonic even in longer barrels. It starts at the diameter that your hoping 9mm expands to and you don't have to worry about keeping it subsonic. If it expands then the hole is even bigger (requiring less accuracy or speeding up the effects of exsanguination) If it doesn't over penetrate then you have better energy transfer to the target. Remember the MP5SD ends up slowing down 9mm so much in order to be so quiet that it is effectively 380 ACP. |
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300 Blackout with 8.5 - 10.5" barrel and a decent suppressor Using this ammunition. https://callawayballistics.com/product/boar-axe-subsonic-300blk-mkz-195gr-new-30rds/ Inside the house ( and outside for that matter under 75 yards ) and you wont find anything more effective while still remaining quiet. |
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Originally Posted By ClickClickBoom1: If your looking for subsonic only, suppressed in a small pdw then .45 acp is the answer. Bigger hole and naturally subsonic. Yes, but bigger hole means a little louder than 9mm. |
Never make another person a priority when they merely see you as an option...
"Some People Are Like Slinkies. They're Not Really Good For Anything, But They Bring a Smile To Your Face When Pushed Down The Stairs."
"Some People Are Like Slinkies. They're Not Really Good For Anything, But They Bring a Smile To Your Face When Pushed Down The Stairs."
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I think OP has three cartridge choices, and it just comes down to what works best for him. I would think the best overall "value" is probably .45, but each cartridge has its pros and cons. 9mm - Pros: The most affordable. Can utilize a chassis for compactness. Good capacity in a handgun chassis. Cons - The worst of the group from a terminal ballistics standpoint. 45acp - Pros: Affordable. Can utilize a chassis for compactness. Good terminal ballistics (especially considering ammo cost). Cons - Limited capacity in a handgun chassis. 300blk - Pros: Versatility (wide array of super and sub projectiles). The most accurate at longer distances. Good terminal ballistics (but with a caveat). Uses the most common suppressor (.308) Cons - The most expensive to shoot. Would require a much larger and heavier platform than a handgun/chassis. Good terminal ballistics can be achieved, BUT....it is very expensive per shot, especially when compared to 9mm/45 HST's. |
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How about 45-70 loaded subsonic suppressed? As much energy as 5.56 but with suppressor and lever gun, probably hearing safe. Or 458 socom if you want to do the same thing but with an autoloader but slightly louder. Just spitballing. Personally I'll take a reliable 9mm pcc suppressed or a 5.56 suppressed. Either is quieter than either unsupressed, and both are going to be effective especially if you have 30 rds on tap. Whatever you choose, train with it. |
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There are a lot of braced pistols out there that will work as a PDW. I would personally have a 300 blk suppressed, a 9mm suppressed and a shotgun available, plus a pistol. I think mag interchangeability between pistol and PDW is valuable. I also have a set of muffs handy… A 200 gr bullet at 1000fps is better out of a 45acp than a 300 blk though for up close living room range IMO. A 223 is punishing indoors in terms of noise. |
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Originally Posted By dogtired: There are a lot of braced pistols out there that will work as a PDW. I would personally have a 300 blk suppressed, a 9mm suppressed and a shotgun available, plus a pistol. I think mag interchangeability between pistol and PDW is valuable. I also have a set of muffs handy… A 200 gr bullet at 1000fps is better out of a 45acp than a 300 blk though for up close living room range IMO. A 223 is punishing indoors in terms of noise. The PDW chassis available for hands that are worth having don’t allow for taking them out of the chassis on the fly. Once you see how well they work, you won’t care anymore about a handgun taken out of your rotation. |
Never make another person a priority when they merely see you as an option...
"Some People Are Like Slinkies. They're Not Really Good For Anything, But They Bring a Smile To Your Face When Pushed Down The Stairs."
"Some People Are Like Slinkies. They're Not Really Good For Anything, But They Bring a Smile To Your Face When Pushed Down The Stairs."
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