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Posted: 9/5/2015 12:42:02 PM EDT
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So my coworker won a 7mm Mag bolt gun in a raffle. He's not a huge gun nut like I am so he asks me for suggestions on glass. Admittedly, I'm not much of a hunter so I'm at a bit of a loss for what to tell him. He hails originally from Colorado and says the furthest he'll shoot is 500-600 yards. Budget, he would like to keep it under $500. He doesn't want to fiddle with turrets. Any suggestions? Thanks |
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Even with a 7mm Rem Mag, some fiddling with elevation is likely, unless he's using a ballistically matched reticle.
There are a couple recommendations I'd make: 1. Option one is a Leopold VX-2 3-9x40 CDS. The VX2 optics are quite good and the 3-9x power range is well suited to his intended purposes and ranges. The "CDS" refers to a Custom Dial System (CDS), where Leopold will precisely match the elevation turret to the ballistics of his particular rifle and cartridge. In this case, you adjust the windage turret to match the range and hold dead on target. There is some fiddling with the turret, but it's as simple as dialing in the desired range. You can also get the scope with the windplex reticle that gives 10 MOA of windage hash marks on either side of the crosshair. Finally, the price falls under his $500 limit at around $440. 2. Option two is a regular Leopold VX-2 3-9x40 with the long range duplex reticle. The same comments apply to the optics and power range and the price is the same at $439. The LR duplex reticle is intended to provide hold marks for 300, 400 and 500 yards. With a 200 yard zero using a bullet like the 160 gr Nosler Partition at 2950 fps and a sight height of 1.7", the first dot is pretty much right on at 300 yards (2.19 MOA versus 2.1 MOA), the second dot is once again pretty much right on at 400 yards (4.8 MOA versus 4.7 MOA) and the picket is very close at 500 yards (7.82 versus 7.6 MOA). Given that the point blank range (no more than 5" above or below the line of sight) for that load is 305 yards, you could go with a 300 yard zero where the two dots and picket in the LR duplex reticle would then be on at 380 yards, 480 yards and 575 yards respectively. Either approach works it's just a matter of preference. |
| If he doesn't want to fiddle with turrets (beyond zeroing), maybe a BDC reticle is his answer. I looked at the Burris, Redfield and Leopold offerings and liked the Nikon Prostaff 5 better myself. The Prostaff 5 replaced the well liked Buckmaster line. Really not that much difference between the quality manufacturers though. Take him to Bass Pro or Cabelas or whatever and have him check the 3-9 x40 options, maybe even 4-14 x40, in particular with BDC to see if he likes them (sucks to say but then buy online-cheaper). My only advice after that is don't go real cheap on rings. The cheapest quality rings seem to be Burris Signature Zee Rings. |
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Even with a 7mm Rem Mag, some fiddling with elevation is likely, unless he's using a ballistically matched reticle. There are a couple recommendations I'd make: 1. Option one is a Leopold VX-2 3-9x40 CDS. The VX2 optics are quite good and the 3-9x power range is well suited to his intended purposes and ranges. The "CDS" refers to a Custom Dial System (CDS), where Leopold will precisely match the elevation turret to the ballistics of his particular rifle and cartridge. In this case, you adjust the windage turret to match the range and hold dead on target. There is some fiddling with the turret, but it's as simple as dialing in the desired range. You can also get the scope with the windplex reticle that gives 10 MOA of windage hash marks on either side of the crosshair. Finally, the price falls under his $500 limit at around $440. 2. Option two is a regular Leopold VX-2 3-9x40 with the long range duplex reticle. The same comments apply to the optics and power range and the price is the same at $439. The LR duplex reticle is intended to provide hold marks for 300, 400 and 500 yards. With a 200 yard zero using a bullet like the 160 gr Nosler Partition at 2950 fps and a sight height of 1.7", the first dot is pretty much right on at 300 yards (2.19 MOA versus 2.1 MOA), the second dot is once again pretty much right on at 400 yards (4.8 MOA versus 4.7 MOA) and the picket is very close at 500 yards (7.82 versus 7.6 MOA). Given that the point blank range (no more than 5" above or below the line of sight) for that load is 305 yards, you could go with a 300 yard zero where the two dots and picket in the LR duplex reticle would then be on at 380 yards, 480 yards and 575 yards respectively. Either approach works it's just a matter of preference. this |
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Leupold FX-II
4x33 or 6x33 Both well under $500 and will have better optical quality/use ability than a comparably priced variable. Simple to use Rugged as hell Relatively compact Easier to use and often more effective as you learn to 'range' and calculate BD better with fixed power. So many today become enamored with variables in spite of the fact that in most cases, for most shooters, they are actually a handicap. |
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Leupold FX-II 4x33 or 6x33 Both well under $500 and will have better optical quality/use ability than a comparably priced variable. Simple to use Rugged as hell Relatively compact Easier to use and often more effective as you learn to 'range' and calculate BD better with fixed power. So many today become enamored with variables in spite of the fact that in most cases, for most shooters, they are actually a handicap. I have fixed power scopes on some of my rifles, mostly 2.5x for rapid shooting and wide field of view and a few 4x scopes, mostly on lever guns of .30-30 power range or 45-70 with limited range. But, this is a 7mm Rem Magnum to be used by someone in Colorado where open country long shots are possible if not likely. This is where the medium power variable especially shines to complement the flat trajectory and down range retained energy of the long projectile. I would think that a 2.5-10x40 to 45mm scope (or classing 3-9x40mm) at a minimum and perhaps a 4-14x50mm would be a better choice unless walking long distances in the mountains in prime elk or mulie territory means weight concerns. Then I would go down to a 2-7x35mm type scope. Note that I am suggesting larger objectives sizes in relation to magnification. This is because hunting is usually best when game is most active and that is in low light conditions, like right after dawn and just before dusk. The scope stays by default down on the lowest power for wider field of view, and is cranked up for longer shots when circumstances warrant. Leupold VX-2 in one of these power ranges would be an excellent choice and meet the budget. |
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So my coworker won a 7mm Mag bolt gun in a raffle. He's not a huge gun nut like I am so he asks me for suggestions on glass. Admittedly, I'm not much of a hunter so I'm at a bit of a loss for what to tell him. He hails originally from Colorado and says the furthest he'll shoot is 500-600 yards. Budget, he would like to keep it under $500. He doesn't want to fiddle with turrets. Any suggestions? Thanks Not a huge gun nut = very unlikely to practice enough to ethically pull off a 500 yard shot. |
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Zeiss Conquest in 3x10 or 4x12 wen they come on sale or Leupold VX3 in the same power range. The better light transmission you can get the better.
I have maybe run across three or four people comfortable enough to shoot at big game from 500-600 yards out in a hunting situation in all the years I've been hunting, but have run into more than a few folks who think 200-250 yards is 400-500 yards. |
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The OP clearly stated 500-600 max, a 6x is plenty of magnification for that range.
I also suggested a 4x because the vast majority of people over-estimate the ranges they are shooting, in my experience if someone says "500 yards" it would likely measure out closer to 400. But even if a true 500-600 max, that falls right into the sweet spot for a 6x. As for 'seeing', fixed power scopes will be brighter than any variable power with the same size objective (in the same price range), the same will be equally as bright compared to one with a larger objective. All while being lighter, stronger, and simpler to use (part of the OPs criteria), along with having a better ability to instinctively, consistently range targets. Price seemed to be of concern which is also why I mentioned the 33's, one could always step up to their 6x42 FX3 line which would be even brighter still than 40-50's you elude to and still be under the stated budget. I live in the SW and use the 6x42 FX3 with the LR reticle over a 6.5 CM and have found it to be brilliant for the type of shooting that the OP describes. I should note that I too am a fan of the fixed 2.5x as you mention, especially over a 22lr Fixed power FTW Quoted:
I have fixed power scopes on some of my rifles, mostly 2.5x for rapid shooting and wide field of view and a few 4x scopes, mostly on lever guns of .30-30 power range or 45-70 with limited range. But, this is a 7mm Rem Magnum to be used by someone in Colorado where open country long shots are possible if not likely. This is where the medium power variable especially shines to complement the flat trajectory and down range retained energy of the long projectile. I would think that a 2.5-10x40 to 45mm scope (or classing 3-9x40mm) at a minimum and perhaps a 4-14x50mm would be a better choice unless walking long distances in the mountains in prime elk or mulie territory means weight concerns. Then I would go down to a 2-7x35mm type scope. Note that I am suggesting larger objectives sizes in relation to magnification. This is because hunting is usually best when game is most active and that is in low light conditions, like right after dawn and just before dusk. The scope stays by default down on the lowest power for wider field of view, and is cranked up for longer shots when circumstances warrant. Leupold VX-2 in one of these power ranges would be an excellent choice and meet the budget. |
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We are Marines, we make 500 yard shots every year With a fixed 4x too I really regret selling a leupold vx3 6x I once had. That would be a nice scope for a 7mag. I have a leupold 4x on my ruger 7x57 But really, any leupold, vortex, nikon, weaver, burris 3-9 would work just fine. I prefer something in their mid range leupolds vx2 or 3 |
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We are Marines, we make 500 yard shots every year Not denying that Marines are good riflemen, however, hitting a target at a known distance where the sight settings/holdover is known is different than hitting an animal in the field where a miscalculation in distance or wind can result in a wounded animal and a long difficult tracking job. Hit an enemy soldier in the knee and you're a good Marine. Hit an animal in the knee and you're a bad hunter. |
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Quoted: Not denying that Marines are good riflemen, however, hitting a target at a known distance where the sight settings/holdover is known is different than hitting an animal in the field where a miscalculation in distance or wind can result in a wounded animal and a long difficult tracking job. Hit an enemy soldier in the knee and you're a good Marine. Hit an animal in the knee and you're a bad hunter. Quoted: Quoted: We are Marines, we make 500 yard shots every year Not denying that Marines are good riflemen, however, hitting a target at a known distance where the sight settings/holdover is known is different than hitting an animal in the field where a miscalculation in distance or wind can result in a wounded animal and a long difficult tracking job. Hit an enemy soldier in the knee and you're a good Marine. Hit an animal in the knee and you're a bad hunter. That's my thinking behind getting him a mil dot scope of some kind and a rangefinder. Not the biggest fan of BDCs for hunting. But like any typical Marine he's stubborn and doesn't want to have something to fiddle with in the heat of the moment. |
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That's my thinking behind getting him a mil dot scope of some kind and a rangefinder. Not the biggest fan of BDCs for hunting. But like any typical Marine he's stubborn and doesn't want to have something to fiddle with in the heat of the moment. Another aspect where fixed power shines, you learn to 'range' based on the relative size of objects and animals in your FOV. Sure you can do the same with a variable but at what power? The lowest? The highest? In between? Then fiddle again adjusting magnification? Just a pain IMHO. With fixed i can just swing on an animal, and knowing the average sizes, I can range and decide on a shot. I can also look at a stand of trees, or a cholla, or a fence line, etc, and 'pre-range' an area just by looking. Easy peazy, no fuss, no knobs, and fast |
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Another aspect where fixed power shines, you learn to 'range' based on the relative size of objects and animals in your FOV. Sure you can do the same with a variable but at what power? The lowest? The highest? In between? Then fiddle again adjusting magnification? Just a pain IMHO. With fixed i can just swing on an animal, and knowing the average sizes, I can range and decide on a shot. I can also look at a stand of trees, or a cholla, or a fence line, etc, and 'pre-range' an area just by looking. Easy peazy, no fuss, no knobs, and fast Quoted:
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That's my thinking behind getting him a mil dot scope of some kind and a rangefinder. Not the biggest fan of BDCs for hunting. But like any typical Marine he's stubborn and doesn't want to have something to fiddle with in the heat of the moment. Another aspect where fixed power shines, you learn to 'range' based on the relative size of objects and animals in your FOV. Sure you can do the same with a variable but at what power? The lowest? The highest? In between? Then fiddle again adjusting magnification? Just a pain IMHO. With fixed i can just swing on an animal, and knowing the average sizes, I can range and decide on a shot. I can also look at a stand of trees, or a cholla, or a fence line, etc, and 'pre-range' an area just by looking. Easy peazy, no fuss, no knobs, and fast If the animal is close just take the shot. Your variable scope is, by default, going to be down at the bottom of its power range. If the animal is beyond your point blank zero, usually about 300-335 yards with the 7 Rem Mag, you are not going to be fiddling with intermediate power settings, you will be at max power and your ranging subtensions or holdovers and reference to visual ranging cues will always be the same. A variable gives you both wide field of view and long range capability. While fewer internal lenses with fixed power scopes mean less internal light transmission losses, the high quality of better scopes glass and lens coatings have rendered the differences to almost immeasurable, since per lens pass through now exceeds 99% and closer to 99.7% with the best. I hunt primarily with bolt guns in .280 Remington, very close to 7 Rem Mag ballistically. I have three of them and two rifles in 7 Rem Mag and know well their capabities and limitations. I've never shot at deer beyond 400 yards for ethical reasons. My favorite scope is a Kahles Helia CL 2-7x36 with a German 4A reticle. I would put its low light performance up against any of those fixed power scopes mentioned. To be fair, it is not inexpensive. In some things you get what you pay for, and good hunting glass is one of them. Even so the VX-2 and VX-3 Leupolds are great for their price, and most hunters prefer a bit more magnification than me. My Leupold LPS 2.5-10x45 30mm main tube (German Schott glass), sadly no longer offered, is marginally brighter than the Kahles, but only because of the 45mm objective. Glass is about equal. If I know the terrain is likely to be more open, the LPS may be my choice for the 10x top end, but that is rare, I no longer used fixed power scopes for hunting except on .22LR and certain specialized situations. Good variables just have too many advantages and fixed power scopes too few benefits to overcome their limitations. Just one point of view, but it is the predominant one with most hunters. |
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If the animal is close just take the shot. Your variable scope is, by default, going to be down at the bottom of its power range. I've seen many in the field struggle to quickly readjust their variable and take a shot. No such issue with fixed If the animal is beyond your point blank zero, usually about 300-335 yards with the 7 Rem Mag, you are not going to be fiddling with intermediate power settings, you will be at max power Ive seen flubbed shots where the shooter thought they were at max power....but weren't. No such issue with fixed and your ranging subtensions or holdovers and reference to visual ranging cues will always be the same. Unless of course you are not at max....then they will not be. But they ALWAYS will be with fixed A variable gives you both wide field of view and long range capability. Only after fiddling and not falling short (as I've seen happen), then only after paying a higher price (for comparable), losing brightness, gaining complexity, and losing ruggedness. On our ranch our rifles are working guns that see daily use, not pampered toys that see daylight once or twice a year, variables simply do not hold up as well on a working gun. While fewer internal lenses with fixed power scopes mean less internal light transmission losses, the high quality of better scopes glass and lens coatings have rendered the differences to almost immeasurable, since per lens pass through now exceeds 99% and closer to 99.7% with the best. Immeasurable? Nonsense, especially when comparables are used. 'The best' often costs more than 3x over a fixed power just to get in the same ballpark of 'seeing'. My favorite scope is a Kahles Helia CL 2-7x36 with a German 4A reticle. I would put its low light performance up against any of those fixed power scopes mentioned. To be fair, it is not inexpensive. Yea I would say 4-5 times the price to get in the same ballpark is a bargain
In some things you get what you pay for, and good hunting glass is one of them. That plays into the OPs stated budget how exactly? How is paying 4-5 times the price, just to get comparable optical performance, with a scope that isn't as light or rugged, and more prone to human error, worth said price? Good variables just have too many advantages and fixed power scopes too few benefits to overcome their limitations. Less rugged More complex Comparably heavier Prone to user mistakes More difficult to learn cues Poorer 'seeing' at similar price point Just to gain a wider field of view at close range, something that is easily overcome with the repeatability of learning your optic and knowing your terrain. A competent Hunter knows his or her terrain and can pick a fixed power that matches it, imaginary problem solved. And in the off chance of an aberration, the FOV aspect is quickly found to be a nonissue. Just ask myself, anyone in my family, or any of our hands how many 'missed opportunities' they have had because they had to use a 4x or 6x at 50 yards......none Just one point of view, but it is the predominant one with most hunters. 'Most hunters' also spend hundreds to thousands of dollars on gear that doesn't make them better hunters, it just makes them feel like they are better hunters. In my experience 'most hunters' have never even tried a fixed power scope, let alone spent a day or week in the field hunting with one. In my experience most of those that we guide on our ranch are surprised to see us toting 'inexpensive' fixed glass on our working guns (some of which are over half a century old), and of those, most are quickly humbled by the shots we take compared to their 'boutique' glass added shots. Many have returned over the years with rigs that emulate ours. I also note that some manufacturers have been bringing back and even expanding their fixed power lines in recent years, this in response to an increase in requests for them (their words). Some have even brought back legacy fixed scope designs using modern tech and glass, an interesting trend considering what 'most hunters' use. But hopefully you enjoy your $1500 scope. That's my POV |
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If weight or the size of the scope is not a factor, I would get a 50mm objective.
I have hunted with both and my 50mm glass sure is a lot brighter right at dawn/dusk. I have never hunted out west and don't know anything about it. I am sure the hunter's needs are different when hiking hills than sitting in a blind. I like magnification. |
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I have never had an issue with a variable in the field; however I set it for the conditions I will be facing for that day and leave it alone. For deer in IN that means they spend most of their time around 4X - and about 6X on one property, although I have not felt like I needed more when using a rifle with a 2.5X Ultralight. In reality a 4X fixed would be just fine for my IN deer spots. My KY guns get turned up a bit more depending on the spot, I have a XV3 4.5-14X & the B&C reticle on my 270WSM and with it set at 10X I'm very comfortable out to 400 on deer on a calm day. After the leaves com down my squirrel rifles end up around 10X. |
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If the animal is close just take the shot. Your variable scope is, by default, going to be down at the bottom of its power range. I've seen many in the field struggle to quickly readjust their variable and take a shot. No such issue with fixed If the animal is beyond your point blank zero, usually about 300-335 yards with the 7 Rem Mag, you are not going to be fiddling with intermediate power settings, you will be at max power Ive seen flubbed shots where the shooter thought they were at max power....but weren't. No such issue with fixed and your ranging subtensions or holdovers and reference to visual ranging cues will always be the same. Unless of course you are not at max....then they will not be. But they ALWAYS will be with fixed A variable gives you both wide field of view and long range capability. Only after fiddling and not falling short (as I've seen happen), then only after paying a higher price (for comparable), losing brightness, gaining complexity, and losing ruggedness. On our ranch our rifles are working guns that see daily use, not pampered toys that see daylight once or twice a year, variables simply do not hold up as well on a working gun. While fewer internal lenses with fixed power scopes mean less internal light transmission losses, the high quality of better scopes glass and lens coatings have rendered the differences to almost immeasurable, since per lens pass through now exceeds 99% and closer to 99.7% with the best. Immeasurable? Nonsense, especially when comparables are used. 'The best' often costs more than 3x over a fixed power just to get in the same ballpark of 'seeing'. My favorite scope is a Kahles Helia CL 2-7x36 with a German 4A reticle. I would put its low light performance up against any of those fixed power scopes mentioned. To be fair, it is not inexpensive. Yea I would say 4-5 times the price to get in the same ballpark is a bargain
In some things you get what you pay for, and good hunting glass is one of them. That plays into the OPs stated budget how exactly? How is paying 4-5 times the price, just to get comparable optical performance, with a scope that isn't as light or rugged, and more prone to human error, worth said price? Good variables just have too many advantages and fixed power scopes too few benefits to overcome their limitations. Less rugged More complex Comparably heavier Prone to user mistakes More difficult to learn cues Poorer 'seeing' at similar price point Just to gain a wider field of view at close range, something that is easily overcome with the repeatability of learning your optic and knowing your terrain. A competent Hunter knows his or her terrain and can pick a fixed power that matches it, imaginary problem solved. And in the off chance of an aberration, the FOV aspect is quickly found to be a nonissue. Just ask myself, anyone in my family, or any of our hands how many 'missed opportunities' they have had because they had to use a 4x or 6x at 50 yards......none Just one point of view, but it is the predominant one with most hunters. 'Most hunters' also spend hundreds to thousands of dollars on gear that doesn't make them better hunters, it just makes them feel like they are better hunters. In my experience 'most hunters' have never even tried a fixed power scope, let alone spent a day or week in the field hunting with one. In my experience most of those that we guide on our ranch are surprised to see us toting 'inexpensive' fixed glass on our working guns (some of which are over half a century old), and of those, most are quickly humbled by the shots we take compared to their 'boutique' glass added shots. Many have returned over the years with rigs that emulate ours. I also note that some manufacturers have been bringing back and even expanding their fixed power lines in recent years, this in response to an increase in requests for them (their words). Some have even brought back legacy fixed scope designs using modern tech and glass, an interesting trend considering what 'most hunters' use. But hopefully you enjoy your $1500 scope. That's my POV Really hung up on that "fiddling" thing, aren't we? I don't fiddle. I know my scope will always be on the bottom of its zoom range unless the shot is long (very infrequent). So, for all practical purposes, I have a fixed power scope 95% of the time. Field of view at 2.5 or 3x, depending on the scope is incredible. When the 300+ yard shot presents itself, one adjudtment to top of the zoom range is not "fiddling", it is simply smart use of technology to obtain an advantage. I must repeat that per lens loss has now been reduced to fractions of less than one percent, so the demonstratively "brighter" fixed power dog won't hunt any more, and you do not have to spend 4-5x more to get that level of lens clarity. Current Japanese Weaver scopes are a good example of extremely low per lens losses at reasonable prices, as are VX-3 Leupolds. Hunt with what you like and take pride in your choices. I'm 65 years old, have, at last count 36 long guns, mostly hunting rifles scoped with capped turret optics with real practical hunting reticles. A few are fixed power, most have low to medium power variables. The latter are simply more versatile. I've hunted since I was a teen in a wide variety of conditions. While I do not claim to be an expert, I'm no beginner who constantly cranks on the zoom of my scopes. None of my scopes, variable or fixed have failed in the field or had a change of zero. None. BTW, ranging and game identification is best done by me in the field with good binoculars and by pre-ranging distance when you get to your set up position or stand by laser ranging various landmarks. That's far more accurate than guessing based on the variations in size of game or tree trunks or fence posts or such through a fixed power scope. I admire your old school approach, but technology and quality of variables today trump the former benefits of fixed power scopes for most hunting. To be fair, there is only one remaining concern. Some lesser variable scopes have a not insignificant change of zero through their magnification range, as much as 3-4 MOA, something that is objectvely quantifiable that you don't even mention. This suggests you may not have much current experience with decent variables to know the issue could exist. Good ones have less than one MOA. A fixed power scope obviously does not have that concern. Any scope in the $500 range will not have this problem. |
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