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Posted: 7/7/2013 5:08:10 PM EDT
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I just posted a video challenge for those that think the recoil of a Mosin Nagant is easy to absorb. Of course it is standing or sitting at a bench but shooting on the ground in the prone postions? Do people still do that?
Here is the challenge please join in if your interested. http://youtu.be/iGkc5lstfJI |
I guess I don't understand the challenge. You say it's about recoil but then you mostly talk about groupings and yardage. You fail to do what you are asking of others and that is shoot all 40 rounds and show us your bruise  .
Another thing I don't understand is why a recoil challenge with a Mosin. Why not man up and do it with a Steyr M95 to weed out those who can really handle the recoil of a bolt action mil surp rifle after 40 rounds 
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Quoted:
I guess I don't understand the challenge. You say it's about recoil but then you mostly talk about groupings and yardage. You fail to do what you are asking of others and that is shoot all 40 rounds and show us your bruise .
Another thing I don't understand is why a recoil challenge with a Mosin. Why not man up and do it with a Steyr M95 to weed out those who can really handle the recoil of a bolt action mil surp rifle after 40 rounds Now THAT would be a challenge. I shot my M44 and a Steyer on the same day, I think I shot maybe 10-25 through each and I thought I damaged my shoulder. |
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The point of looking at group size to gauge the degree of "flinch" that may be occurring. Anyone can whack themselves in the shoulder 40 times, the point is to be able to do it while shooting accurately.
----- The Mosin Nagant 91/30 is actually about a quarter pound heavier than the 1903 Springfield and the 7.562x54R generates less recoil than the .30-06, at least in light ball (150ish) grain loads. For the 91/30 with a 150 gr bullet at 2840 fps in a 8.8 pound rifle, the recoil energy is 15.27 ft pounds, the recoil velocity is 10.57 fps and the recoil impulse is 2.89 pound.sec. For the 1903 with a 150 gr bullet at 2900 fps in a 8.6 pound rifle, the recoil energy is 17.81 ft pounds, the recoil velocity is 11.54 fps and the recoil impulse is 3.09 pound.sec. Just to further make the point however, if you are shooting 32,000 psi .45 Colt loads with a 250 grain bullet at 1900 fps in a 6.0 pound Model 92 carbine, the recoil energy is 19.35 ft pounds, the recoil velocity is 14.40 fps and the recoil impulse is 2.69 pound.sec. And that, along with the narrow, curved steel butt plate used on the model 92 carbine, will make your Mosin Nagant look soft and cuddly in comparison. ----- I think it also gets to the heart of the issue of why the major battle rifle calibers like the .30-06, 7.62x54R, 7.92x57mm Mauser, etc were all shooting bullets of roughly 150 grains at roughly the same velocity and in roughly the same class in terms of power and recoil. It's not because they could not make larger rounds that would shoot flatter or with heavier bullets, it was because the .30-06 class cartridge generates about as much recoil in a reasonably light weight battle rifle as the average soldier can shoot accurately. |
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...snip.. I think it also gets to the heart of the issue of why the major battle rifle calibers like the .30-06, 7.62x54R, 7.92x57mm Mauser, etc were all shooting bullets of roughly 150 grains at roughly the same velocity and in roughly the same class in terms of power and recoil. It's not because they could not make larger rounds that would shoot flatter or with heavier bullets, it was because the .30-06 class cartridge generates about as much recoil in a reasonably light weight battle rifle as the average soldier can shoot accurately. This is so important to understand when choosing a firearm . It ALWAYS comes down to the power/ weight /recoil balance, and not just in military small arms but in the hunting fields as well. Everything has a downside; every "improvement" in any one of those factors has a negative effect on one or both of the remaining factors, all else being equal. Want a lighter rifle to carry? It's gonna kick you harder than an otherwise identical but heavy one. Want more power?- Same thing; it's gonna kick you harder unless you add weight. Want less recoil- ? You're gonna have to either sacrifice cartridge power or add weight to the platform. Of course, for example, improvements in stock fit or the addition of various recoil-impulse altering devices (Dead Mule, etc.) can mitigate felt recoil to a point, but that isn't really comparing apples to apples. Same thing by choosing premium bullets a little lighter than conventional bullets. Bottom line: As long as firearms remain anything like we now know them, there is no escaping simple physics, although we can stretch the parameters a bit with the aforementioned "tricks'. |
| Worst pain from recoil I have experienced is from a Enfield No5 Jungle Carbine. Lightweight, full power cartridge and a narrow hard rubber recoil enhancer in the middle of the butt. Nasty without a PAST pad, especially if you are 5'9" and 150lb with no meat on your bones. |
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Quoted:
Technique matters as well.
Worst pain from recoil I have experienced is from a Enfield No5 Jungle Carbine. Lightweight, full power cartridge and a narrow hard rubber recoil enhancer in the middle of the butt. Nasty without a PAST pad, especially if you are 5'9" and 150lb with no meat on your bones. I used to have a No 5 Jungle carbine and I got rid of it due to poor accuracy, not because of recoil. The key to shooting a No 5 comfortably is much the same as shooting a Model 92 carbine with heavy loads comfortably. If you depart from the conventional approach of putting the butt in the pocket of your shoulder and instead move it out an inch or so on to your bicep, you've suddenly got a lot more give and won't get beat as hard. |
| I'm no recoil junky, but I've fired all the Mosins- 91/30's, M39, M38, M44- I've owned (since sold) from prone, sitting (ground and bench), kneeling, and standing and the recoil is not at all unpleasant from any of them. I do not understand what the fuss is all about. |
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Quoted:
I'm no recoil junky, but I've fired all the Mosins- 91/30's, M39, M38, M44- I've owned (since sold) from prone, sitting (ground and bench), kneeling, and standing and the recoil is not at all unpleasant from any of them. I do not understand what the fuss is all about. Same. The more I see the kinds of posts as the OP the more I think this has got to be an issue with big guys not learning how to shoot properly because they figure they are big guys. Being on the smaller side, 5'10' 140lbs, I had to learn proper technique and I don't have problems handling any of the COMMONLY complained about cartridge/gun combos. Hell, my wife shoots .30-06 in a Savage 110 with no recoil pad to speak of without complaint because like the WNBA, she has good fundamentals. (and I know like 4 people will get the WNBA joke) |
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Quoted:
I guess I don't understand the challenge. You say it's about recoil but then you mostly talk about groupings and yardage. You fail to do what you are asking of others and that is shoot all 40 rounds and show us your bruise .
Another thing I don't understand is why a recoil challenge with a Mosin. Why not man up and do it with a Steyr M95 to weed out those who can really handle the recoil of a bolt action mil surp rifle after 40 rounds Probably because the Mosin's are MUCH more common than the Steyr's. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I guess I don't understand the challenge. You say it's about recoil but then you mostly talk about groupings and yardage. You fail to do what you are asking of others and that is shoot all 40 rounds and show us your bruise .
Another thing I don't understand is why a recoil challenge with a Mosin. Why not man up and do it with a Steyr M95 to weed out those who can really handle the recoil of a bolt action mil surp rifle after 40 rounds Probably because the Mosin's are MUCH more common than the Steyr's. True, but there are many folks in the C&R forum who own M95's. The recoil is much greater, hence the reason I brought that up if you are talking about a recoil challenge. |
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I think it also gets to the heart of the issue of why the major battle rifle calibers like the .30-06, 7.62x54R, 7.92x57mm Mauser, etc were all shooting bullets of roughly 150 grains at roughly the same velocity and in roughly the same class in terms of power and recoil. It's not because they could not make larger rounds that would shoot flatter or with heavier bullets, it was because the .30-06 class cartridge generates about as much recoil in a reasonably light weight battle rifle as the average soldier can shoot accurately.
Also consider when these cartridges were first developed, many armies still had cavalries/ horseback solders. One of the requirements of a service cartridge in that time was the ability to bring down a horse. As trucks and jeeps replaced horses, we saw the rise of intermediate rifle cartridges and lighter bullets. |
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The mosin has almost no kick when compared to other firearms for instance a 12ga, or a 45 70. My deceased uncle has a 12ga for back in the day with a just a solid plastic piece on the end of the stock. We shoot in regularly in his honor, granted it kicks like a mule but still fun to shoot. So if were going to do some recoil challenges lets all take the recoil pads off our pump 12ga shotguns and make this interesting.
Also I should probably state I own a type 53 and 91/30 both I shoot regularly. I am also a pretty big guy, which maybe makes a difference 6'2" 275lbs. That said my 5'3" 105lbs cousin will shoot full power 3" steel shot out of a Browing BPS all weekend long at ducks. Edited out insult |
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Quoted: I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but you are fucking pussy. The mosin has almost no kick when compared to other firearms for instance a 12ga, or a 45 70. My deceased uncle has a 12ga for back in the day with a just a solid plastic piece on the end of the stock. We shoot in regularly in his honor, granted it kicks like a mule but still fun to shoot. So if were going to do some recoil challenges lets all take the recoil pads off our pump 12ga shotguns and make this interesting. Also I should probably state I own a type 53 and 91/30 both I shoot regularly. I am also a pretty big guy, which maybe makes a difference 6'2" 275lbs. That said my 5'3" 105lbs cousin will shoot full power 3" steel shot out of a Browing BPS all weekend long at ducks. Well, I think that was uncalled for. This isn't GD. I do agree that Mosin recoil is greatly exaggerated. It's no worse than any other milsurp. I think it's a combination of a couple things: 1. Because the rifles and the ammo are affordable, for a lot of shooters 7.62x54R is their first "full power" rifle after starting out shooting .223 and 22LR. 2. Most people (unfortunately) shoot almost exclusively from the bench, which greatly amplifies recoil. With proper form a Mosin doesn't have excessive recoil, even shooting prone. It's not necessarily about how tough you are - even a smaller framed person can comfortably shoot a full sized military rifle if they do it right. |
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Quoted:
. The mosin has almost no kick when compared to other firearms for instance a 12ga, or a 45 70. My deceased uncle has a 12ga for back in the day with a just a solid plastic piece on the end of the stock. We shoot in regularly in his honor, granted it kicks like a mule but still fun to shoot. So if were going to do some recoil challenges lets all take the recoil pads off our pump 12ga shotguns and make this interesting. Also I should probably state I own a type 53 and 91/30 both I shoot regularly. I am also a pretty big guy, which maybe makes a difference 6'2" 275lbs. That said my 5'3" 105lbs cousin will shoot full power 3" steel shot out of a Browing BPS all weekend long at ducks. Well, I think that was uncalled for. This isn't GD. I do agree that Mosin recoil is greatly exaggerated. It's no worse than any other milsurp. I think it's a combination of a couple things: 1. Because the rifles and the ammo are affordable, for a lot of shooters 7.62x54R is their first "full power" rifle after starting out shooting .223 and 22LR. 2. Most people (unfortunately) shoot almost exclusively from the bench, which greatly amplifies recoil. With proper form a Mosin doesn't have excessive recoil, even shooting prone. It's not necessarily about how tough you are - even a smaller framed person can comfortably shoot a full sized military rifle if they do it right. Your right not GD should be careful of what I say, that said people that think in Mosin is hard recoiling are too recoil sensitive IMO, with proper form recoil is negligible at best, but like you said when people only shoot ARs or 22LR rifles with no recoil, they they wow that mosin has kick. When you compare it to other firearms like shotguns for instance which many of us grew shooting, it has almost no recoil in comparison. |
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Well, I think that was uncalled for. This isn't GD. I do agree that Mosin recoil is greatly exaggerated. It's no worse than any other milsurp. I think it's a combination of a couple things: 1. Because the rifles and the ammo are affordable, for a lot of shooters 7.62x54R is their first "full power" rifle after starting out shooting .223 and 22LR. 2. Most people (unfortunately) shoot almost exclusively from the bench, which greatly amplifies recoil. With proper form a Mosin doesn't have excessive recoil, even shooting prone. It's not necessarily about how tough you are - even a smaller framed person can comfortably shoot a full sized military rifle if they do it right. Agreed, on all counts. When people talk about the heavy recoil of Mosin-Nagants, I often wonder of it is their first experience with a larger center-fire cartridge. I've not found them to be particularly uncomfortable to shoot, personally. Not compared to some of the stuff I've subjected my shoulder to. Going from an AR-15 to an MN would be a hell of a wake-up call, I'd imagine. The AR's shooting characteristics can really spoil you. |
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Your right not GD should be careful of what I say, that said people that think in Mosin is hard recoiling are too recoil sensitive IMO, with proper form recoil is negligible at best, but like you said when people only shoot ARs or 22LR rifles with no recoil, they they wow that mosin has kick. When you compare it to other firearms like shotguns for instance which many of us grew shooting, it has almost no recoil in comparison.[/div] A buddy of mine has shot a verity of weapons, but had most of his experience on ARs and M4s. (former military) He was downright positive he wanted nothing to do with my MN's, double-barrel shotguns, or my Hakim. The Hakim surprised the hell out of him by it's mild shooting characteristics and I think his Tikka T3 in .308 cured a lot of his recoil-sensitivity. I DID trick him, by shooting both barrels of his double-barrel shotgun and not reacting when he refused to. (bird shot) He asked if I had just let loose with both barrels and I told him, "somebody had to". He came back a minute later, rubbing his shoulder and commenting I must have more meat on my shoulder than he did. "Why? Because I didn't say it hurt like a mofo?" "Yeah!" "It did. I just didn't TELL you it did. I knew you wouldn't do it if I did." He laughed. Some people just haven't been exposed to large-caliber rifles. I know I was intimidated as all hell, the first time I shot one. Then I learned I LIKE recoil... 
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| Mosin has nothing on my pops benelli super black eagle with 3.5" 2-ounce turkey loads no5 shot at 1300-1350fps. I like sneaking a couple in on friends when shooting 2.75" bulk packs skeet shooting lol. My dad shot one never again will he shoot the 3.5's, I have watched a lot of experienced men and woman all lose composer after that light weight bastard shotgun. I routinely like loading 7 of them in the extended mag and seeing who can let them rip fastest before handing it back lol..... Good times plinking with that lol.... |
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