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Posted: 2/9/2013 3:17:39 AM EDT
So i bought a 18" rifle gassed SS410 barrel from Bravo Company. Its a beautiful barrel. Cant wait to shoot it. Well, i emailed thier customer service 3 times, asking what they would recommend for buffer weights using a standard carbine lower and stock. they ignored the 1st 2 emails, ok i guess then the last one they finally replied with; "shoot 62+ grain bullets and youll have test buffer weights and play with it", thats it,  Really? Now i realize every rifle and load is different. And i know sometimes you have to play with a rifle to make it shoot right for you. However, i figured BCM tech support could send me in right direction as far as thier experience with buffer weights. I love BCM products, and have always been loyal to them. But this support pissed me off a little. I explained to them this upper may be used in military service when lives are on the line. But no help..... Not very impressed...... So maybe you guys can tell me what the best buffer weight on this barrel. I am guessing h2 or h3? 18" rifle gas, carbine USGI stock and spring. Shooting anything from 55gr to 77gr. What you think?
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They are right. What do you expect for them to tell you exactly what will work for you. Just shoot whatever round you want and start with your basic carbine buffer and experiment. I'm sure you should have some diff. weight buffers around. If not buy an H2 and try it with that.
Personally I have not noticed a diff. with my buffer changes, but I am limited in rifle types. All I own are 16" middies, and one 20" rifle. Just shoot and enjoy, and if you find one thats really good for you, post the info and say why. I'm curious about the benefits of diff. weight buffers. Thanks |
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Not to be a douchenozzle...but with everything going on right now, I would think BCM has a little more than you on their plate...
I personally would try an H buffer and go from there.maybe let the experts chime in though as I haven't played with anything other than carbine systems. |
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eh, yeah buddy... they have NO idea what ammo you are using and how much oompf it has. Plus the tolerance in the gas ports, amount of lube etc.. it is a trial and error if you want the "best" cycling
If you want the "perfect" buffer weight you will have to try them out and see what works best in your particular setup. Welcome to the world of tolerance stacking. |
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They are right. What do you expect for them to tell you exactly what will work for you. Just shoot whatever round you want and start with your basic carbine buffer and experiment. I'm sure you should have some diff. weight buffers around. If not buy an H2 and try it with that. Personally I have not noticed a diff. with my buffer changes, but I am limited in rifle types. All I own are 16" middies, and one 20" rifle. Just shoot and enjoy, and if you find one thats really good for you, post the info and say why. I'm curious about the benefits of diff. weight buffers. Thanks I expect s Tier 1 company who offers a specific product would have an idea what they designed it to work with.... You think they just picked an arbitrary gas port size without testing it on different setups? Just build it and hope for the best? Engineering is a little more complex than that, you design a tool with specific use in mind and some testing. I dont expect a PERFECT answer but i do expect a ballpark guess or ideas and testing results. When you buy a car they tell you all sorts of tech data in the manual about use, maintenance and all sorts of specs..... expected them to have an idea about what thier product was designed for. And its easy if this upper was just used for fun, to play around with, but this may see combat in military use, and i cant just play with it and hope for the best and get killed..... |
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eh, yeah buddy... they have NO idea what ammo you are using and how much oompf it has. Plus the tolerance in the gas ports, amount of lube etc.. it is a trial and error if you want the "best" cycling If you want the "perfect" buffer weight you will have to try them out and see what works best in your particular setup. Welcome to the world of tolerance stacking. thanks bro, i am well aware of this, however, they designed the gas system for a relatively specific use or tested it i hope... all i wanna know what setup this they design this for and what they recommend..... |
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eh, yeah buddy... they have NO idea what ammo you are using and how much oompf it has. Plus the tolerance in the gas ports, amount of lube etc.. it is a trial and error if you want the "best" cycling If you want the "perfect" buffer weight you will have to try them out and see what works best in your particular setup. Welcome to the world of tolerance stacking. thanks bro, i am well aware of this, however, they designed the gas system for a relatively specific use or tested it i hope... all i wanna know what setup this they design this for and what they recommend..... colt would say they recommend the a2 stock and rifle buffer for m16a4, and h buffer for m4 rifle, based on gas port size, dwell time, barrel length, m855 ammo...... i expected some ballpark answer like that from BCM tech |
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This reminds me of the time Nike wouldn't call me back and tell me what size shoes to wear. I was SO pissed. haha, but seriously, in the military we expect some tech details from the manufacturer on designed use...... its fun as a toy i guess but more serious when its a tool used to save your life, id love to be testing buffers while in AFG |
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Not trying to ruffle your feathers, but you seem to asking more from them than necessary. They design the product to work with a rifle gas system, which in turn would lead most to believe that a rifle buffer would be adequate, yet take into account that most like adjustable carbine stock set ups. So there responsible to make sure it will work given the many variables out there.
The rest is up to you bub. If you want you can just have them shoot it for you too. To be sure you'll have to be the one shooting and testing, then you can feel secure that if you see "combat" that the rifle will work. Only a fool would worry about some customer service reps opinion if he's going to be the one in combat. Burn some rounds and find what works, and stay safe. |
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What everyone else has said. They're busy and sorry, you're buffer question probably isn't top priority right now. But they did answer you. They also gave you the correct answer: they don't know and in any case it's subjective. It'll probably run fine on any (carbine) buffer...if you want to tweak it around for some reason, go ahead. As others have or will say, buffer weight isn't that big of a deal but one or another may feel better to you. As for this BCM upper "may be used in military service when lives are on the line." Probably not going to impress BCM. Just sayin'. you telling me that when this barrel was designed they did not pick a specific gas port size for a specific rifle setup or range of setups in mind? i think the engineering is a little more complex than that. And buffer weight DOES matter when desgining a gas system with a certain set of specifications, thats why they use different weights, you can use a little math to determine gas port size, dwell time, ammo specs, buffer spring rate, gas tube size and length, and buffer weights.... |
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What everyone else has said.
They're busy and sorry, you're buffer question probably isn't top priority right now. But they did answer you. They also gave you the correct answer: they don't know and in any case it's subjective. It'll probably run fine on any (carbine) buffer...if you want to tweak it around for some reason, go ahead. As others have or will say, buffer weight isn't that big of a deal but one or another may feel better to you. The H3 recommendation is an excellent one, IMO. But you might need a stronger action spring if you go that route. If this upper "may be used in military service when lives are on the line" then ask your armorer for some buffers, draw some ammo, shoot/experiment and and post results. You just might help the next guy out. That's what this board is for. |
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What everyone else has said. They're busy and sorry, you're buffer question probably isn't top priority right now. But they did answer you. They also gave you the correct answer: they don't know and in any case it's subjective. It'll probably run fine on any (carbine) buffer...if you want to tweak it around for some reason, go ahead. As others have or will say, buffer weight isn't that big of a deal but one or another may feel better to you. The H3 recommendation is an excellent one, IMO. But you might need a stronger action spring if you go that route. If this upper "may be used in military service when lives are on the line" then ask your armorer for some buffers, draw some ammo, shoot/experiment and and post results. You just might help the next guy out. That's what this board is for. have you read the M4 and M16 tech data sheets? alot goes into why they upgraded from standard carbine buffer to H in M4. They chose specific buffer due to analysis of the bolt carrier operation etc with rates of fire and loads etc..... just thought BCM would have access to tech data from whoever designed the barrel |
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What everyone else has said. They're busy and sorry, you're buffer question probably isn't top priority right now. But they did answer you. They also gave you the correct answer: they don't know and in any case it's subjective. It'll probably run fine on any (carbine) buffer...if you want to tweak it around for some reason, go ahead. As others have or will say, buffer weight isn't that big of a deal but one or another may feel better to you. The H3 recommendation is an excellent one, IMO. But you might need a stronger action spring if you go that route. If this upper "may be used in military service when lives are on the line" then ask your armorer for some buffers, draw some ammo, shoot/experiment and and post results. You just might help the next guy out. That's what this board is for. why would you say stronger buffer spring? |
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eh, here is some stuff.
http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/07/28/ar15function/ http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/12/12/ar-15-rate-of-fire-as-a-function-of-buffer-weight-and-action-spring-initial-comparison/ just a little background. beyond that do this. buy an H3 and a carbine. Swap weights until you find what you want. If you still need more then go to a VLTOR A5 setup and be done with it. Hell you might as well do that in the first place. Unmarked = all three steel H = 2 steel, 1 tungsten H2 = 1 steel, 2 tungsten H3 = 3 tungsten Rifle--------5.15oz (but considerably longer than the "H" carbine buffers) H-----------3.0oz H2----------4.6oz H3----------5.6oz |
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if they told me that they havent tested it with carbine systems and it is meant for a2 stock system that would be a perfect answer..... sayin i dont know basically is a shit answer, colt wouldnt have told us that You are the first I have even seen imply that colt has better customer service than BCM. Does colt even sell uppers? I feel their answer was reasonable |
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So i bought a 18" rifle gassed SS410 barrel from Bravo Company. Its a beautiful barrel. Cant wait to shoot it. Well, i emailed thier customer service 3 times, asking what they would recommend for buffer weights using a standard carbine lower and stock. they ignored the 1st 2 emails, ok i guess then the last one they finally replied with; "shoot 62+ grain bullets and youll have test buffer weights and play with it", thats it, Really? Now i realize every rifle and load is different. And i know sometimes you have to play with a rifle to make it shoot right for you. However, i figured BCM tech support could send me in right direction as far as thier experience with buffer weights. I love BCM products, and have always been loyal to them. But this support pissed me off a little. I explained to them this upper may be used in military service when lives are on the line. But no help..... Not very impressed...... So maybe you guys can tell me what the best buffer weight on this barrel. I am guessing h2 or h3? 18" rifle gas, carbine USGI stock and spring. Shooting anything from 55gr to 77gr. What you think?They told you exactly what the proper procedure is. If they had suggested a buffer to you and you either had a problem with your favorite ammo cycling... or you didn't like the angle of ejection... or the recoil was a bit more than you wanted... they would be spending time (that no one in the business has these days) answering several emails helping you and most possibly paying for return of a buffer or two and a replacement... or maybe several replacements. I understand why they said what they did and perhaps in different times... they would have responded differently. May I add that I have never done business with a more thoughtful bunch of guys than those that work at Bravo Company. They always answer my inquiries as best that they can and they ship lightning fast. Their products are right up there with Ranier, LaRue and DD. You can find your answer right here on Arfcom. Try this thread for a start: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/571623_.html This has been discussed many times and there is some great real world experience in existing threads. Good luck and let us know how your rifle works out. Flash |
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So i bought a 18" rifle gassed SS410 barrel from Bravo Company. Its a beautiful barrel. Cant wait to shoot it. Well, i emailed thier customer service 3 times, asking what they would recommend for buffer weights using a standard carbine lower and stock. they ignored the 1st 2 emails, ok i guess then the last one they finally replied with; "shoot 62+ grain bullets and youll have test buffer weights and play with it", thats it, Really? Now i realize every rifle and load is different. And i know sometimes you have to play with a rifle to make it shoot right for you. However, i figured BCM tech support could send me in right direction as far as thier experience with buffer weights. I love BCM products, and have always been loyal to them. But this support pissed me off a little. I explained to them this upper may be used in military service when lives are on the line. But no help..... Not very impressed...... So maybe you guys can tell me what the best buffer weight on this barrel. I am guessing h2 or h3? 18" rifle gas, carbine USGI stock and spring. Shooting anything from 55gr to 77gr. What you think?you bought a barrel? if you want a sure thing buy a complete factory gun. way to many variables for them to tell you exactly what to use. |
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eh, here is some stuff. http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/07/28/ar15function/ http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/12/12/ar-15-rate-of-fire-as-a-function-of-buffer-weight-and-action-spring-initial-comparison/ just a little background. beyond that do this. buy an H3 and a carbine. Swap weights until you find what you want. If you still need more then go to a VLTOR A5 setup and be done with it. Hell you might as well do that in the first place. Unmarked = all three steel H = 2 steel, 1 tungsten H2 = 1 steel, 2 tungsten H3 = 3 tungsten Rifle--------5.15oz (but considerably longer than the "H" carbine buffers) H-----------3.0oz H2----------4.6oz H3----------5.6oz Durabo gave good advice, but I need to make one small correction. A carbine buffer is 3.0 oz. Here goes my smallish correction: C -------- 3.0 oz - often unstamped- but some will have a "C" H -------- 3.8 oz H2 ------- 4.6 oz H3 ------- 5.2 oz ST-T2 --- 4.2 oz (these are the Spikes ST-T2 buffers weighed on my postal scales). As he said, the carbine buffer has 3 steel, 0 tungsten weights, The H stands for tungsten weights (H=1, H2=2,, H3=3)- total of 3 weights. Now, 2 days ago, I shot my 20" Lilja (carbine stock system), It had a Spikes ST-T2 buffer in it, shot great but would not hold the bolt back at last round fired. I had a H3 and a Carbine buffer with me. I installed a Carbine buffer and it all worked fine (BHO worked). If I would have had more time, I would have swapped around weights like Durabo advised. So, mine is not a BCM, but it shows how I did it, and I tried several types of ammo. Maybe BCM could have said to start with a carbine buffer and work up. Or an H and work up, or an H3 and work down. Either way, the answer is going to come down to your testing. Good luck - pretty much as Durabo said, get a Carbine and an H3 buffer and choot it... You'll get it right 
Edit to add-- My 18" is on an A2 stock, uses standard rifle buffer. Both are sweet shooters  HTH
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I explained to them this upper may be used in military service when lives are on the line. Quoted:
And its easy if this upper was just used for fun, to play around with, but this may see combat in military use, and i cant just play with it and hope for the best and get killed..... 
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I explained to them this upper may be used in military service when lives are on the line. Quoted:
And its easy if this upper was just used for fun, to play around with, but this may see combat in military use, and i cant just play with it and hope for the best and get killed..... Posers 
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I explained to them this upper may be used in military service when lives are on the line. Quoted:
And its easy if this upper was just used for fun, to play around with, but this may see combat in military use, and i cant just play with it and hope for the best and get killed..... Posers Posers? what you mean? |
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I, along with a couple others here in case you haven't noticed, am calling BS on your claim that you're using this in a military weapon.
If you were in the type of unit that would even allow such a modification, you wouldn't be here asking and crying about a fucking buffer weight. Go ahead. Prove me wrong. Take a picture of this barrel installed into a .mil weapon. Show me the documentation, and the signing authority, that's allowing you to re-barrel an M16 with a COTS. What branch are you again? Exactly what ammo are you going to be using? eta: who's changing out your barrel for you? |
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What everyone else has said. They're busy and sorry, you're buffer question probably isn't top priority right now. But they did answer you. They also gave you the correct answer: they don't know and in any case it's subjective. It'll probably run fine on any (carbine) buffer...if you want to tweak it around for some reason, go ahead. As others have or will say, buffer weight isn't that big of a deal but one or another may feel better to you. The H3 recommendation is an excellent one, IMO. But you might need a stronger action spring if you go that route. If this upper "may be used in military service when lives are on the line" then ask your armorer for some buffers, draw some ammo, shoot/experiment and and post results. You just might help the next guy out. That's what this board is for. have you read the M4 and M16 tech data sheets? alot goes into why they upgraded from standard carbine buffer to H in M4. They chose specific buffer due to analysis of the bolt carrier operation etc with rates of fire and loads etc..... just thought BCM would have access to tech data from whoever designed the barrel So Colt had to do a little experimenting, just like BCM told you to do, before they got the buffer weight right? Is that what you're trying to say? They designed the barrel to allow a specific gas volume based on the ammunition used. Even if you told them what ammo you were using (assuming you aren't a reloader), they STILL wouldn't be able to account for the springs, BCG, buffer, or a thousand other variables unique to your gun. If you want to be SURE the upper will work out of the box, buy a complete rifle. |
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What everyone else has said. They're busy and sorry, you're buffer question probably isn't top priority right now. But they did answer you. They also gave you the correct answer: they don't know and in any case it's subjective. It'll probably run fine on any (carbine) buffer...if you want to tweak it around for some reason, go ahead. As others have or will say, buffer weight isn't that big of a deal but one or another may feel better to you. The H3 recommendation is an excellent one, IMO. But you might need a stronger action spring if you go that route. If this upper "may be used in military service when lives are on the line" then ask your armorer for some buffers, draw some ammo, shoot/experiment and and post results. You just might help the next guy out. That's what this board is for. have you read the M4 and M16 tech data sheets? alot goes into why they upgraded from standard carbine buffer to H in M4. They chose specific buffer due to analysis of the bolt carrier operation etc with rates of fire and loads etc..... just thought BCM would have access to tech data from whoever designed the barrel So Colt had to do a little experimenting, just like BCM told you to do, before they got the buffer weight right? Is that what you're trying to say? They designed the barrel to allow a specific gas volume based on the ammunition used. Even if you told them what ammo you were using (assuming you aren't a reloader), they STILL wouldn't be able to account for the springs, BCG, buffer, or a thousand other variables unique to your gun. If you want to be SURE the upper will work out of the box, buy a complete rifle. all i asked of them is what they designed the gas system to operate with, im assuming the gas system was designed against a tech requirement, when u drill a gas port you design it with specific setup in mind, just wanted to know what was. |
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I, along with a couple others here in case you haven't noticed, am calling BS on your claim that you're using this in a military weapon. If you were in the type of unit that would even allow such a modification, you wouldn't be here asking and crying about a fucking buffer weight. Go ahead. Prove me wrong. Take a picture of this barrel installed into a .mil weapon. Show me the documentation, and the signing authority, that's allowing you to re-barrel an M16 with a COTS. What branch are you again? Exactly what ammo are you going to be using? eta: who's changing out your barrel for you? damn dude how do you know about me so well? i work for a government agency involved in military support. 12 yrs mil. and i may do the barrel swap myself or have someone else do idk. Im suprised with your obvious mil experience, that you havent noticed there are different government and non-government entities that have alot of leeway as to weapon choice and setup lol. Believe me or not im not too worried about it 
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So i bought a 18" rifle gassed SS410 barrel from Bravo Company. Its a beautiful barrel. Cant wait to shoot it. Well, i emailed thier customer service 3 times, asking what they would recommend for buffer weights using a standard carbine lower and stock. they ignored the 1st 2 emails, ok i guess then the last one they finally replied with; "shoot 62+ grain bullets and youll have test buffer weights and play with it", thats it, Really? Now i realize every rifle and load is different. And i know sometimes you have to play with a rifle to make it shoot right for you. However, i figured BCM tech support could send me in right direction as far as thier experience with buffer weights. I love BCM products, and have always been loyal to them. But this support pissed me off a little. I explained to them this upper may be used in military service when lives are on the line. But no help..... Not very impressed...... So maybe you guys can tell me what the best buffer weight on this barrel. I am guessing h2 or h3? 18" rifle gas, carbine USGI stock and spring. Shooting anything from 55gr to 77gr. What you think?Why would you guess at the far end of the scale (i.e. H2 or H3)? Start at a carbine.. That would be my educated guess. You should not be pissed. |
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I, along with a couple others here in case you haven't noticed, am calling BS on your claim that you're using this in a military weapon. If you were in the type of unit that would even allow such a modification, you wouldn't be here asking and crying about a fucking buffer weight. Go ahead. Prove me wrong. Take a picture of this barrel installed into a .mil weapon. Show me the documentation, and the signing authority, that's allowing you to re-barrel an M16 with a COTS. What branch are you again? Exactly what ammo are you going to be using? eta: who's changing out your barrel for you? damn dude how do you know about me so well? i work for a government agency involved in military support. 12 yrs mil. and i may do the barrel swap myself or have someone else do idk. Im suprised with your obvious mil experience, that you havent noticed there are different government and non-government entities that have alot of leeway as to weapon choice and setup lol. Believe me or not im not too worried about it
Sorry, but your story is still very suspicious. Having worked as an armorer for the .mil and been assigned to MANY units on TAD you never see home built guns even in the hands of SF. Hell, we had a small amount of SAM-R's in our inventory and God help you if you fucked with the barrel even though you were qualified. Those shits got sent out to either 3rd echelon or depot if you wanted something done to them. Do you do this for contractor groups? |
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I, along with a couple others here in case you haven't noticed, am calling BS on your claim that you're using this in a military weapon. If you were in the type of unit that would even allow such a modification, you wouldn't be here asking and crying about a fucking buffer weight. Go ahead. Prove me wrong. Take a picture of this barrel installed into a .mil weapon. Show me the documentation, and the signing authority, that's allowing you to re-barrel an M16 with a COTS. What branch are you again? Exactly what ammo are you going to be using? eta: who's changing out your barrel for you? damn dude how do you know about me so well? i work for a government agency involved in military support. 12 yrs mil. and i may do the barrel swap myself or have someone else do idk. Im suprised with your obvious mil experience, that you havent noticed there are different government and non-government entities that have alot of leeway as to weapon choice and setup lol. Believe me or not im not too worried about it
Cool story bro. Prove it. eta: I've got no problem admitting when I'm wrong - publicly too. Prove it. |
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This reminds me of the time Nike wouldn't call me back and tell me what size shoes to wear. I was SO pissed. haha, but seriously, in the military we expect some tech details from the manufacturer on designed use...... its fun as a toy i guess but more serious when its a tool used to save your life, id love to be testing buffers while in AFG I'm lost. Don't they give you rifles when you join the military? |
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You could have posted this in BCM's industry page and gone this route too instead of emailing them and not liking their answer.
Their answer was sufficient for the data you gave them, you are lucky they even took the time to get back to you given the current conditions they are functioning in. |
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They are right. What do you expect for them to tell you exactly what will work for you. Just shoot whatever round you want and start with your basic carbine buffer and experiment. I'm sure you should have some diff. weight buffers around. If not buy an H2 and try it with that. Personally I have not noticed a diff. with my buffer changes, but I am limited in rifle types. All I own are 16" middies, and one 20" rifle. Just shoot and enjoy, and if you find one thats really good for you, post the info and say why. I'm curious about the benefits of diff. weight buffers. Thanks I expect s Tier 1 company who offers a specific product would have an idea what they designed it to work with.... You think they just picked an arbitrary gas port size without testing it on different setups? Just build it and hope for the best? Engineering is a little more complex than that, you design a tool with specific use in mind and some testing. I dont expect a PERFECT answer but i do expect a ballpark guess or ideas and testing results. When you buy a car they tell you all sorts of tech data in the manual about use, maintenance and all sorts of specs..... expected them to have an idea about what thier product was designed for. And its easy if this upper was just used for fun, to play around with, but this may see combat in military use, and i cant just play with it and hope for the best and get killed.....[/quote/] What you don't get is that they(various buffers) are all ball park. Stick to what your uncle gives you if you don't trust your home build. |
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