Armory Sponsor
Posted: 2/25/2005 4:40:50 AM EDT
| Texas jerkoff used a AK47 and wore bullet proof vest. Imagine that a criminal wearing a vest. That's why we need a round that will defeat it. |
|
Altho the 5.7 would do good in that instance, My personal opinion is it would make a very poor carry pistol. This is based upon(possibly incorrect) information about the balistics of the round when not shooting thru any sort of armor. I have heard from several reliable sources(a while back, nothing recently) that it does little more damage then a .22mag. And the fact that they are only able to import 5.7mm TRAINING ammo. this limits your choices ammo wise. |
|
The "military" round would have no problem defeating level 3. With the rise in home invasions a pistol that is able to defeat a vest would be very useful. A rifle as a home defense weapon is very bad, a compact pistol with no recoil and 20 rds that can defeat any armor might be ideal. I am not suggesting throwing away your .45, but there are other options. I have to wonder my do police need such a weapon? Are they suggestion that criminals might be wearing body armor and if so I am not entitled to use such weapon. Didn't the Supreme Court rule that the police are no obligated to protect you? So, there for don't we have the right to use any means to protect ourselves? Well, let me get off my soap box I just think it's piss poor in this country that the government is able to ban such things. |
Your missing the point, a: you cant have the ammo b: if the suspect is not wearing a vest your just going to poke holes in him and not stop him c: like lumpy said, adjust your tactics. |
|
There is trouble down the road. Senators Corzine and Lautenberg of NJ are going to introduce a bill in the US Senate to ban the FN 5.7. www.wnbc.com/politics/4223712/detail.html |
|
You’re missing the point, a: you cant have the ammo b: if the suspect is not wearing a vest your just going to poke holes in him and not stop him c: like lumpy said, adjust your tactics. You’re missing the point: 1. That’s my point we should be able to own the ammo 2. I will be able to poke 20 holes in him 3. You can't adjust your tactics to a situation you don't know what's coming "Don’t try to coordinate a fight" Bruce Lee If I am at my cabin I bring a rifle, in my house I use a pistol. I think the most common problem is people thinking because they have a weapon they can clear there house. WRONG! Get you family to a safe room with a phone and a cell phone and call the police. Priority number one is to protect your family. People have no idea who is in there house: Former Police, Former Navy SEAL, Former Special Forces, and Former USMC. These people sometimes turn bad and if there in your home and your going after them they will kill you and worse take your weapon and kill your family. Last thing you want to do is escalate a situation to a gun fight with your family in the house. |
|
I assume this is the shooting being discussed? Link ---------------------- TYLER, Texas Feb 25, 2005 — A man angry about being sued for unpaid child support opened fire with an AK-47 assault rifle outside a courthouse, killing his ex-wife and a man trying to help the couple's son. The gunman, 43-year-old David Hernandez Arroyo Sr., was killed Thursday afternoon in a gun battle with officers a few miles away after wounding his son and three law enforcement officers, one critically. The son had been acting as a mediator between his parents, police said. Police estimated that Arroyo, who had a history of spousal abuse and weapons violations, shot 50 rounds in the historic town square. He was wearing a military flak jacket and a bulletproof vest. "He definitely came well-armed and prepared," police Chief Gary Swindle said. "We do understand there had been some threats made by him the previous week." But the attorney representing Maribel Estrada, 41, said he doesn't believe she thought her ex-husband was dangerous. Estrada worked at a meat packing plant in Tyler and raised a 17-year-old and a 6-year-old with the help of her eldest son, Joshua Wintters said. The other victim, Mark Alan Wilson, 52, was credited by authorities with saving the life of David Hernandez Arroyo Jr., who was listed in fair condition at a hospital with leg wounds. A sheriff's deputy, Sherman Dollison, 28, was in critical condition after being shot in the liver, lungs and legs; a sheriff's lieutenant and a Tyler police detective were treated and released. "One of the deputies at the scene said if it hadn't been for Mr. Wilson," said Sheriff J.B. Smith, "the son would be dead." Friends who visited the son in the hospital Thursday night said he told them that his father was always open about having a collection of weapons. Aurea Seanez said the son told them, "And look now, he used them on us." Wilson, a gun enthusiast who once owned a shooting range, intervened after Arroyo killed his ex-wife, witnesses said. Swindle, the police chief, said Wilson shot at Arroyo several times but his rounds weren't penetrating the armor. -DmL |
You could buy AP-capable 5.7 ammo before FN pulled it. The new SS196-SR supposedly won't penetrate a LII Vest. But yes, the old SS192 JHP can penetrate both panels of an LII and it can also pierce a IIIA. The SS190-AP that never was or will be commercially available penetrates a IIIA at 50 meters from the Five-seveN. EDIT: Keep in mind everyone shot with the SS190 has died immediately. There have been at least a dozen shootings with the P90 and about half a dozen with the Five-seveN. Almost all have involved one bullet being fired, the others were 1-3 rounds fired. Quote: As one who has actually used the P90 for tactical operations I can say that it is a devastating round despite its small size. From our initial training, I recall the fact that no one has survived being shot by the P90. -DmL |
Thanks for the info on the ammo. I'd be interested to know more details on 5.7 shootings. How they died, shotplacement, etc... |
Here are some details from some of the shootings:
-DmL |
|
Also a P90 article from Houston PD SWAT: -------------------- Link Experiences with the FN P90 By Sandy Wall The Houston, TX, Police Department was the first American law enforcement agency to deploy with the FN P90 submachine gun on its SWAT team. We received five P90s into our inventory in 1999 along with several thousand 5.7mm rounds of ammunition. After a short period of in-house testing and training, the P90s became operational within our entry team elements. The P90 has been utilized primarily at the point man positions where its CQB features are best utilized. The first time I saw a P90, I couldn’t help but notice how unique and interesting it looked. It was fun to shoot and no one could argue about the innovations the engineers at Fabrique National in Belgium had featured on this weapon. The fact remained, however, that the 5.7x28mm cartridge was unproven. We had all the energy data and gelatin shots, but had no documentation on what the round would do on a real human body. It may sound morbid, but in the tactical world the proof is in the real deal. That missing element was always in the back of our minds. Well, the jury is now in. Houston SWAT was involved with the first and only lethal engagement with the weapon to date. I first wrote an article on the P90 for the Texas Tactical Police Officers Association (TTPOA) Command Magazine. Then, as well as now, I carried a P90 as my primary weapon. I have shot thousands of 5.7mm rounds in training and continue to deploy with the weapon on every SWAT situation and high-risk warrant I respond to. I concede that the P90 is not all things to all people. However, for what I do, as a SWAT officer in a major city, it’s a great weapon. Its CQB features are many, so I will just touch on the high points. The weapon system, including both the P90 submachine gun and the FiveseveN pistol, is built around the SS190 5.7x28mm cartridge. One of the unique features about this system is that the cartridge can be fired from an assault rifle or a handgun. The SS190 version of the 5.7mm cartridge uses a 31-grain, steel jacketed, steel tipped, aluminum core bullet. It is capable of 2350fps and it can defeat level IIIA body armor at 200 meters. The bullet contains no lead for environments that prohibit toxins. The round is not cheap but as the weapon becomes more popular here in the United States, the cost should come down. Winchester will soon assemble the 5.7mm round from imported FN components and also plans to make a hollowpoint round. The 5.7mm round has 379 ft-lbs of energy, compared to 1300 ft-lbs for the 5.56mm NATO. The recoil from the 5.7mm round is much less than even the 9mm. The SS190 ball is not only flat shooting, but also capable of penetrating car doors and auto-glass with minimum ricochet potential. In contrast, the bullet is designed to stay intact and start a controlled tumble once it penetrates a soft medium, thus reducing any over-penetration worries. The SS190 ball penetrates between 11 and 13.5 inches of gelatin, compared to between 17 and 22 inches of penetration for the M855 dual-core 5.56mm NATO round. Upon impact with soft targets, the 5.7mm ball tumbles one time, base over point. This transfers energy and limits over-penetration. The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets. None of the 5.7mm rounds fragmented and as far as we can tell, none exited either. The shooting itself was a violent confrontation with many rounds exchanged between the suspect and the react team. The suspect was hit multiple times with both 5.56mm and 5.7mm rounds. The P90 works from a simple blow-back bolt in a bullpup design. It is as easy to break down and clean as any gun you will ever shoot. I have been amazed at how little residue I find even after hundreds of rounds. I find less residue than in most weapons fired only 50 rounds. The simplicity of the action provides almost no chance of malfunctions. We literally tried to make one of ours malfunction by refusing to clean it. After several thousand rounds we couldn’t stand it anymore, broke down and cleaned it anyway. To this day, after thousands of rounds down range, I have yet to experience a malfunction with my P90. The ergonomic design provides comfort and speed on target but does not compromise accuracy. It can hold a respectable group at 100 yards and the recoil is about one third of an M4, and even less than a 9mm MP5. Recoil management and time back on target is easy. It has a two-stage trigger in full-auto mode that allows the shooter to fire single or full-auto fire with just trigger manipulation— no more accidentally going full-auto because you did not realize where your selector was positioned. With the P90 the shooter has to commit a conscious effort to pull through the semi-auto stage to the full auto mode. Every feature of the weapon can be operated equally from the right or left hand position. Spent casings eject straight down, which makes my partners on the firing line happy. No more doing the hot-brass-down-my-shirt dance. FN even has a slick little pouch that neatly attaches to the eject port. It will catch about a hundred casings before you have to dump it. The 50 round magazine almost eliminates the need to carry extra ammo. The magazine is translucent, which allows the shooter to know how many rounds remain with just a glance, even while you operate the weapon because the magazine sits right on top of the weapon just below the shooter’s cheek well. The P90 comes with a two or three rail option for after market accessories and an optional built in laser. One of the drawbacks of the weapon is poor iron sights and I don’t really care for the optional factory optics. We popped them off and went with EOTech Holo sights. Normally, I’m not big on lasers, but in this case I use my built-in laser as a good back up to my holo sights should it malfunction. When I talk to operators from other agencies about weapons, I now seldom have to explain what weapon I’m talking about when I mention the P90 as my primary. Obviously the folks at FN are getting the message out and the weapon is now familiar. If you operate in an environment like the one I operate in, you can’t go wrong with a P90 slung at the low-ready. -DmL |
|
5.56mm with widely available ammo would have dropped that biatch just fine. +1 to "your best bet is a rifle" I'm not convinced that the 5.7mm will always penetrate a level IIIa vest. There are other rounds that can defeat a II besides a 5.7mm also. I think the AP capabilities of a civilian legal 5.7mm round have been greatly exaggerated. That's not to say I want to get shot by it, but I don't think it is the magic round it is made out to be. |
#1 - We are talking about CCW's here as far as I can make out. 5.56mm cannot be chambered (realistically) in a pistol, so forget that. #2 - Well, there isn't any convincing to be done. The article from Houston PD states that it will pierce a IIIA at 200 meters (P90). #3 - What other pistols will pierce both panels of a L2 vest, hold 20 rounds, weigh much less than similar guns, and have half the recoil of a 9mm? CZ-52 will pierce one panel of L2 (barely), so it probably wouldn't be very capable of penetrating and killing after piercing the vest. The CZ-52 also lacks in the other points of the Five-seveN that I mentioned. #4 - I know the 5.7mm has the appearance of being a magic round, but I don't view it like that. Based on the EXTENSIVE amount of data I have come across while searching the web, I believe the 5.7's wounding ability is on par with other PISTOL calibers. But comparing it to a rifle round fired from a rifle isn't fair. The other details of the 5.7 (such as I mentioned in #3) are what makes it special. -DmL |
P90 is not a conceal carry weapon either. You'll end up going to your vehicle to get that also. That's like putting a 9mm through a MP5 instead of a glock 19. I've seen so much conflicting data on the 5.7mm from a variety of sources that I think it is being over blown by both sides. It is a unique weapon, however from what I've seen for general purpose self defense there are better options. What I'm saying is if you've got an assailant in heavy armor don't mess with engaging them with your pistol. The head shot and leg shots are options if absolutely necessary but they aren't ideal. |
Personally, I would rather not repeatedly shoot the thighs trying to hit a specific artery, and afterwards wait for it to bleed out...while he is meanwhile moving constantly and firing back at me. I would rather be carrying a pistol that will reach him even if he is wearing a vest and just shoot for the center. Not to mention that the chest area is a much wider target loaded with organs and the Five-seveN has a higher hit probability and gives twenty chances to hit him. Same story with a head shot. Not easy at all when you are being fired upon in the heat of a battle and the target is moving. And would you always aim for the thighs, pelvis, or head in an engagement when you don't know if he is armored? If you aimed for center mass on an armored target (as you instinctively would if you didn't know he was) you would be dead just like Mr Wilson is. Quote: i just got off the phone with my friend whos best buddy was one of the deceased. He is a CHL, got the drop on the perp, got within spitting distance, fired 2 rounds to the guys body...he had on a vest and turned around and put one in the guys chest and one in his head. -DmL |
Dml5: Nice posts. The sad part is that those who own 5-7's who did not get to stockpile the ss190 round are woefully out of luck. The HP's as I understand are not being imported and the NBT rounds probably wont do much of anyting.  So it's back to training and knowing your weapon and primary/secondary targets as well as use of cover vs. concealment. The credo I live by is : "The more you sweat in training the less you bleed in combat!" |
The P90 was brought into the discussion because it shares the round of the Five-seveN. The Five-seveN IS carryable though (although a bit big for it) and with SS190 rounds it will still penetrate a IIIA at 50 meters (as opposed to 200 meters with the P-90). Even the discontinued SS192 JHP had enough punch to barely penetrate a IIIA. No way I'm stepping up to defend the new SS196 at this moment though. I hear it will be 40 gr @ 1650 fps, not much heavier than SS192 but much slower. -DmL |
 Nonsense. SS192 can still be acquired cheaply... Gunbroker -DmL |
too wurds HAND LOAD |
Bit out of my price range for HP ammo! That not withstanding, I would love to get my hands on some before it is all gone! I'll have to do a little more digging to see if I can find it cheaper. |
 Just Joking. For anyone who carries the Five-seveN, the new SS196 should be cheaper than the SS192 ever got (it was down to about .35c/round) and it would suffice for training. Then buy as many SS192 as you will be carrying (probably about 60 with extra magazines) and that should be all you'll need. -DmL |
| The reason why we need one of these is simple, I want one. The 5.7 is an awesome little round, light recoil, accurate, and fun to shoot. I really don't care if it will penetrate a level IIIa vest or not. I really do not plan on dealing with anyone wearing one. I know that even if you are wearing a level 3 you will be keeping your fuc*i*g head down as long as I have bullets in the glock, which should geve me time to run like a bitch. If I am going to be deliberately attacking someone with that kind of protection on I am using a rifle. I don't think that anyone is going to break into my home wearing body armor, but if they do I have a loaded ar as well as a loaded shotgun. |
|
Why is there no talk of reloading this? I mean legally (ie the legal defination of AP) you could reload it with a FMJ which I can guarantee you will go through better than SS192. Also, note SS190 while restricted does not appear to be technically illegal under the AP defination as it is lead. |
|
The SS190 has never been available to the public. It is in violation of ATF Regs to possess it if you are not an LE dept. If there is some SS190 out there, they had to have received it from a dept. If you have some, get rid of it....if you get caught with it you might be up you know what creek. |
Is the sub-sonic AP also? Is it the same bullet as the SS190? |
This matches my reasons exactly. |
I dont think that makes for a great endorsement of the 5.7mm People with much more experiacne in wound ballistics than me have descriped the 5.7mm wound path as "ice pick" and "22LR" like. I'll stick to a 5.56mm77GN OTM from a 14.5" M4 |
Why not? Because he was hit multiple times with it? The article states that he was also hit multiple times with 5.56mm, so in that case also forget your 14.5" M4.  The 5.7mm's performance in this shooting was phenomenal because of the damage done to the heart by the 5.7mm. It literally tore it in half. It also notes that the coroner had never seen a wound like it. And yes I've heard all (believe me, all) the lab data against this round, and its just that. Lab data. I don't care what the experts think about the gun if its out there in the real world proving itself in one shooting after another. Do you think a .22LR would have enough momentum left after penetrating a LIII vest to instantly kill with one shot? The 5.7mm did. Also, I doubt a .22LR to the heart would rip it in half. Furthermore, it is not possible for the wound path be like an "icepick", because the round is in full tumble throughout nearly the entire travel. That means that the wound initially created would be the width and height of the projectile, which is .224 by .810 in. Houston PD shot a subject who was firing at them with an AR-15. The subject was hit in the chest and the bullet tumbled into his heart, cutting it into two pieces. The coroner remarked that he had never seen a wound like that. -DmL |
Because he was hit by 5.56mm and 5.7. Without seeing the actual coroners report for all we know the 5.7 had no effect and he was killed by the 5.56mm. Results may have been the same if he was hit with 5.56mm and a Daisy Red Ryder for all we know. When there are a few hundred shooting with 5.7mm from handguns, we will have a much better idea of its actual performance. until them I'll stick with proven performers from my handguns and carbines. |
Didn't you read the quote? A 5.7mm round hit the suspect's heart and split it in two. So yes, we do know that the 5.7 had an effect, whether or not that was the round that killed him. It doesn't sound like you saw the second quote on this shooting, so I'll post it again below: Houston PD shot a subject who was firing at them with an AR-15. The subject was hit in the chest and the bullet tumbled into his heart, cutting it into two pieces. The coroner remarked that he had never seen a wound like that. The bullet also did not exit his body. I have more of the context from the above quote incase you're thinking it was a 5.56 that split his heart. -DmL |
Regardless of velocity, SS196 will be designed so as to not pierce armor. Thats why the SS192 was pulled in the first place -- it pierces L2 body armor. So if you were looking at the 5-7 for AP ability, there would be advantages with the SS192. -DmL |
Aren't most police officers who are shot, shot with their own weapon? |
Used to be true, not so sure anymore. Most police officers who are killed by gunfire are killed by centerfire rifles. Weapons retention training. triple retention hoilsters, double action service pistols, and body armor have all lessoned the rate of officers being killed with their own service psitol. Nationwide the death rate for cops has car crashes and gunfire neck & neck for number one cause of death. |
Armory Sponsor