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Posted: 7/21/2003 1:14:57 PM EDT
Hello folks.

Which of the following .308 battle rifles would you trust (on par with AR15) in case of survival or SHTF scenario?

A.AR10/SR25
B.HK91/G3
C.M1A/M14
D.FN FAL

I don't have any battle rifles yet and I want to make decision when I have enough $$$ saved so I buy a real battle rifle instead of another AR15.
Link Posted: 7/21/2003 1:20:10 PM EDT
I have all of those except for the ar10. My choice would be the FAL, hands down. Cheap parts, cheap mags, easy to maintain and clean, and reliable. Out of all the choices the FAL is the rifle used in battle by more countries and for the longest period of time. That should tell you something.
Link Posted: 7/21/2003 2:30:17 PM EDT
I would have to say a FAL.Do to my experience with the AR15 in all model during the Somalia and Persian Guld conflicts. I have seen to (many) bad guys take multiple hits from the substandard 5.56mm / .223 rounds and keep on trucking. And I mean more than 10 rnds. I would not even think of letting a spotter carry that
p.o.s during a overnighter.The brits have evn stop carry those small bullpups and went back to FAL's in afghanistan.You really cant go wrong with any 7.62 x 51 based rifle. I think people who are really in the know will tell you the honest truth about the AR15 and variants. And not try to romanticize this weapon.It good for urban stuff but after 400 yds effectively killing anything forget it.................

{sniper}
Link Posted: 7/21/2003 2:55:30 PM EDT
I don't have an HK91, but I do have an HK93...and it's one dirty rifle. That makes me somewhat nervous. It's reliable and its sights are great, though.

Same with the AR10...I don't have one, but I have an AR15, and I can only imagine it'd get dirtier with .308. It also seems more finicky than the others listed. (I know my ARs are)

My M1A is nice, but it's a royal pain in the butt to strip and clean. But, it has great iron sights, and it's..natural. It comes up and sights like butter, and it's very smooth to shoot.

But hands down...I'd have to go with a FAL. Mags are everywhere, parts are cheap, it's suitable for almost everything..and now that I finally got mine working it's going to wind up replacing my M1A when I want to lob .30 bullets downrange. It feels a bit better to me than an M1A, easier to grip and handle. It lacks a bolt hold open, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Mags are easier to change (I can't tell you how many times I fumble with an M14 mag, trying to seat it correctly), and it's adjustable gas system means it'll cycle with almost anything.
Link Posted: 7/21/2003 4:10:48 PM EDT
As much as I LOVE my all USGI parts M-1A, I would have to say FAL for SHTF. The FAL is easier to clean, just as accurate, and will run an ANY 7.62x51 you get your hands on because of the adjustable gas system. 90 countries can't be wrong, the FAL is one very proven rifle.
Link Posted: 7/21/2003 10:33:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/21/2003 10:35:21 PM EDT by IronBalaclava]
FN FAL, Austrian STG-58. What more is there to say?

Edited to add: My thoughts might change if they Chamered a SIG 550 series for 7.62X51
Link Posted: 7/22/2003 2:59:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/22/2003 3:06:34 AM EDT by Charging_Handle]
Reverse the order you have them listed in and I think you would have the correct order.

1. FAL for the reasons mentioned...cheap mags, reasonably accurate, reliable, etc.

2. M1A (GI parts that is) because it is very reliable, accurate and has great sights. If it wasn't for excessive mag prices I would list this as #1.

3. H&K 91 is a great rifle and I would have no problem with these. I wouldn't bet my life on a Century G3 though, just because of quality control issues.

4. AR-10...hey I love the AR-15 but I have less experience with the AR-10 and I am not sure it has had enough combat experience to be trusted in such conditions just yet. And getting 20 round conversion mags are horribly expensive.

Those are just my opinions, others will have different ones.

-Charging Handle
Link Posted: 7/22/2003 6:03:19 AM EDT
Different things motivate us. Take me, I don't shoot with out a scope so that leaves out the FAL and HK and M1A1. Too difficult to scope with accuracy.

I'll take the new for 2003 AR-10 carbine. (In fact, I did !!)
Link Posted: 7/22/2003 8:59:58 AM EDT
DSA SA58 carbine. I love mine.
Link Posted: 7/22/2003 9:01:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/22/2003 3:35:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/22/2003 3:38:07 PM EDT by -Duke-Nukem-]
I agree with Charging_Handle's list.

I have a G3 clone and while its not an HK91, I've shot HK91s aplenty as well. The G3 clone gets dirtier after 100 rounds than the FAL does after 300 rounds. It's reliable, and it will keep running, but they are a bitch to clean. I also feel that the big G kicks your shoulder worse than the FAL. My fiance prefers the G3 though. The M1a has the best felt recoil of the bunch, but it somewhat delicate. The AR10 has great potential but is new and untested, someone needs to take them into battle and find out what goes wrong with them, mabye we can donate some to the Liberians?

My choice:


Her choice:
Link Posted: 7/22/2003 4:27:40 PM EDT
FAL rifle, won't make your ears bleed like a carbine

Link Posted: 7/22/2003 5:00:28 PM EDT
M1A
GG
Link Posted: 7/22/2003 5:38:45 PM EDT
It's a tossup. I would never pick a M1A if I had to scope it. However, with iron sights, it is probably the easiest to shoot precisely of the bunch (mind you, I have no experience with the HK).

But, if I had to haul a rifle around for long periods, not worry about weather, spares, breakdown, strange ammo, and maybe having to use it as a club in emergencies, I guess it would be a coin toss between the FAL and M1A. The M1A has better sights but it is easier to mount optics on the FAL.

I like the AR10 but I am just not convinced it is reliable. But if I needed a semi-auto scoped rifle for precision work it would be AR10 all the way.

Couple of toys I believe in:








Link Posted: 7/22/2003 6:33:11 PM EDT
I'd take the FAL or M1A.
Link Posted: 7/22/2003 7:20:13 PM EDT
FAL
Link Posted: 7/22/2003 7:48:58 PM EDT
M14 Full Auto
Link Posted: 7/22/2003 8:14:59 PM EDT
Thank you folks for your responses.

I would like to try out a FAL but it doesn't look as beautiful as AR10 or M1A...
Link Posted: 7/22/2003 8:21:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/22/2003 8:32:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raf:
Read "Boston's Gun Bible (revised) wherein he devotes scores of pages to just this topic in exhaustive detail.

His picks, in order.

1)M1A
2)FAL
3)HK


Is this a book or on a webpage?
Link Posted: 7/22/2003 8:57:42 PM EDT
DSA STG-58
Link Posted: 7/22/2003 8:58:40 PM EDT

FAL
Link Posted: 7/22/2003 9:16:28 PM EDT
FAL, Just got my first and it a blast to shoot with way more punch than the AR15
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 6:26:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GreenDragon:
Originally Posted By raf:
Read "Boston's Gun Bible (revised) wherein he devotes scores of pages to just this topic in exhaustive detail.

His picks, in order.

1)M1A
2)FAL
3)HK


Is this a book or on a webpage?



THINK this is a book. The author may very well be Boston T. Party - I'm not certain of the spelling but that's phonetically correct (believe it or not). I've met this guy and, and don't have anything else to say.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 6:43:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/23/2003 6:46:04 AM EDT by 5subslr5]

Originally Posted By jimmybcool:

It's a tossup. I would never pick a M1A if I had to scope it. However, with iron sights, it is probably the easiest to shoot precisely of the bunch...........

........if I needed a semi-auto scoped rifle for precision work it would be AR10 all the way.






j.b. cool, you've already posted what I've been thinking. This topic might need to be broken down into 1) scoped rifles and 2) iron (open) sights.

Since I only shoot with a scope the AR-10A4 is my logical choice.

-----------------------------------------------

A quick word about the AR-10 and reliability. ArmaLite has reduced the weight of their AR-10's by approximately one pound for 2003 to improve the weight of course but mainly to improve the balance. ALL other changes for 2003 have been to improve reliability across a wide range of ammunition. (ArmaLite will not divulge exactly what changes have been made as they consider those changes proprietary. Their attitude is "Let the competition run their own tests.")

The AR-10 has been in use by certain components of the US military in the Afghan and Iraq (as well as in the militaries of at least two of our allies)for over a year now and you can bet many of the changes were a result of the feedback from the the military.** I know one of the changes came directly from the Special Ops folks at Crane, Ind.

** Additionally, ArmaLite ran exhaustive tests utilizing high-speed cameras earlier this year.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 6:56:20 AM EDT
5sunslr5

I would rather use an AR10 than FAL if they have improved reliability.

In truth, my opinion on reliability is more colored by this forum than experience. My AR10T has never had a failure of any kind. Yet, I am only using original factory 10 round (I think, 5 or 10) magazines with Match grade Federal ammo. And it is all slow fire, 3-4 rounds per string, bench, perfect conditions, rifle maintained meticulously, etc.

I have considered getting the ArmaLite AR-10A4 CAR upper and trying that. I resist due to concerns that I would not have a rifle reliable with any surp ammo with higher capacity magazines. If I liked it, I would probably move the FAL. Nah. I never get rid of guns I like.

Speaking of which, I need to figure out how to find room for another safe.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 7:10:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/23/2003 7:14:49 AM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 7:12:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jimmybcool:


Speaking of which, I need to figure out how to find room for another safe.



Link Posted: 7/23/2003 7:13:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By raf:

Originally Posted By GreenDragon:
Originally Posted By raf:
Read "Boston's Gun Bible (revised) wherein he devotes scores of pages to just this topic in exhaustive detail.

His picks, in order.

1)M1A
2)FAL
3)HK


Is this a book or on a webpage?



Here's his web page: www.javelinpress.com.



Well, I did get the spelling correct.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 7:44:36 AM EDT
Add another one for the FAL. I own all of your choices except an M1A (which I expect to remedy soon).

My DSA carbine is reliable, low recoil, easy to clean/maintain, cheap mags, and reasonably accurate. If you opt for a FAL, get a DSA or a quality smith-built FAL, like AZEX or from Gunplumber. DON'T get an angry beaver-built Century.

My greek SAR8 is hell for reliable, accurate, also cheap mags. A bit more of a pita to clean. However, a bit more recoil. A friend of mine was inspecting the bolt, and managed to lock the rollers. You would probably be screwed out in the field if you did this unless you had pliers handy to compress/unlock the rollers. An experienced HK guy wouldn't do this, but shit happens.

The AR10, welll, I have a love/hate relationship with mine. I love it NOW that the bugs are worked out (KNOCK ON WOOD), but I still have memories of it dumping mags on the ground under recoil. This is not a good thing in a SHTF rifle
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 8:24:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SP10:
but I still have memories of it dumping mags on the ground under recoil. This is not a good thing in a SHTF rifle



Or for that matter ANY $1k+ rifle.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 1:54:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 3:53:04 PM EDT
I've done the same thing. Cleaning it one day I rotated it by mistake. Took a few mins to figure out that it's camming action would unlock it.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 4:52:58 AM EDT
So the DSA FALs are the way to go eh? Ive been thinking about either a FAL or a preban AR. Since ive already got the Bushy Im looking into FALs now.
Any more feedback on DSA quality.???
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 5:57:12 AM EDT
I have 3 DSA rifles, 2 stg-58s, and a sa-58 medium contour. All superb weapons. The company is aces to deal with. I had an issue with the lower on one of the stg-58's starting to develop some brown powder on it that could be wiped off (rust). I had the rifle about 8 months at that point, called them gave them the story, they said to send it in and we'll make it right. I did just that with a list of other things I wanted them to go over. Everything I complained about they replaced. Remember this was a kit gun built from 'surplus' parts and one shouldn't expect the parts to be 100% perfect. But, when I got it back it was 100% perfect, they replaced all the parts I complained about and refinished the entire rifle, it looks superb. Turn around time was a little over a week. The sa-58 medium, the one made with all new parts was of course perfect out of the box.. :)
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 6:17:21 AM EDT
ATLGA

Keep in mind, DSA offers either kits, where you assemble a FAL on a reciever using surplus parts (STG-58) or a complete rifle they built. I am not certain of this, but I think the assembled rifles are all new parts as well. Such as an SA-58.

I got the SA-58 Carbine with the X-stock and ended up with a Reflex dot on top. Of the three rifles, this is the one I am LEAST accurate with. But, the M1A has been accurized as has NM sights. I can get MOA with it. And the AR10T is sub-MOA. I am guessing around 1.5-2 MOA with the FAL. which is OK for a battle rifle SHTF defense tool. Mine sits by my desk as the primary response tool to the incredibly unlikely event I need a firearm in a hurry.

My FAL was NOT reliable out of the box. However, after running 200 rounds of ammo through it, it became reliable. Now, I would be shocked if it failed.

Here is a better photo of it.




Good luck.


Link Posted: 7/24/2003 7:49:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MickeyMouse:
SP10, you need to learn how to solve the HK lockup issue without tools. When the bolt head gets locked back, rotate it in relation to the carrier not quite a 1/4 turn. Pull forward then rotate back. Experiment a little and observe how things work. Just a bit of practice and you can do the deed with NO tools! Easier than you think - I have won a few beers doing this.



Thanks, MM. I'll check this out. Ya learn sumthin' new everyday
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 11:20:52 AM EDT
M1A: Accurate, reliable, great trigger and ergonomics.

Fal: Could be a great rifle if it had a safety selector that could be operated while holding the gun in a firing grip, and a decent triger.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 1:24:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/24/2003 1:30:53 PM EDT by Detlef]
Can someone give a concise overview as to why Boston T. Party rates the M1-A over the FAL? I do not know much about battle rifles, but I really cannot see how an M1-A would be a better choice than a FAL.

I would like to get the book and read it, but that will not happen anytime soon.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 3:11:08 PM EDT
This may sound dumb, but is a Spanish CETME similar to the FAL? Or an export design?? Anyways, what do those DSA carbines run for?
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 3:16:49 PM EDT
The Cetme is like an HK 91. My 2 stg-58's cost me the following...

Standard was $795+$15 ship+$20 FFL fee, total $830 delivered

Carbine was $845+$15 ship+$20 FFL fee, total $880 delivered

I paid DSA directly for them on my Credit Card
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 7:29:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SP10:

Originally Posted By MickeyMouse:
SP10, you need to learn how to solve the HK lockup issue without tools. When the bolt head gets locked back, rotate it in relation to the carrier not quite a 1/4 turn. Pull forward then rotate back. Experiment a little and observe how things work. Just a bit of practice and you can do the deed with NO tools! Easier than you think - I have won a few beers doing this.



Thanks, MM. I'll check this out. Ya learn sumthin' new everyday



yes, thank you a bunch mm! i was just cleaning my g3 for the first time and got myself into this mess... your advice saved me a bunch of headache. thanks again.
Link Posted: 7/25/2003 4:08:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/25/2003 5:02:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
M1A: Accurate, reliable, great trigger and ergonomics.

Fal: Could be a great rifle if it had a safety selector that could be operated while holding the gun in a firing grip, and a decent triger.



For those that can't, there are extended versions which work quite well.
Link Posted: 7/28/2003 5:44:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
M1A: Accurate, reliable, great trigger and ergonomics.

Fal: Could be a great rifle if it had a safety selector that could be operated while holding the gun in a firing grip, and a decent triger.



An Inch or DSA extended safety would alleviate that problem.
Current SA M1A's have some QC issues, and I have seen a number of them pop extractors in commercial ammo.

FALFALFALFALFALFALFAL
Link Posted: 7/28/2003 1:10:40 PM EDT
The AR10 is most reliable when used as a club.
Link Posted: 7/28/2003 1:35:11 PM EDT
DSA FAL with my pre-ban M1A as my 2nd choice.

The FAL is the most battle proven 7.62NATO rifle in existance.
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 1:38:34 PM EDT
FAL


Had one built at ohio rapid fire.

NO COMPLAINTS WHATSOEVER !


Todd had my order processed, and my rifle waiting at my FFL's shop in two weeks.

very reasonable and reliable.


ohiorapidfire.com
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 4:04:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TimJ:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
M1A: Accurate, reliable, great trigger and ergonomics.

Fal: Could be a great rifle if it had a safety selector that could be operated while holding the gun in a firing grip, and a decent triger.



An Inch or DSA extended safety would alleviate that problem.
Current SA M1A's have some QC issues, and I have seen a number of them pop extractors in commercial ammo.

FALFALFALFALFALFALFAL



Gah. I have (as I posted earlier in many other forums ) an L1A1...and it's saftey is HUGE! It gets in the way of my thumb when I get into firing position when it's set on "Fire". It literally digs into my thumb. If I adjust position it works fine, but I don't have quite the grip that I like when I'm shooting, especially rapid fire.

I'd rather have something like an Izzy safety or something...but, because it's an almost letter-perfect L1A1 (no FA, preban Entreprise Arms receiver), I'm not about to swap parts out. It looks too damn cool as it is
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 11:41:57 PM EDT
Without a scope and lots of prayer,I don't realy see any of these before mentioned rifles outshooting a M1!

Bob
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