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Posted: 6/23/2003 7:01:57 PM EDT
I'm going to be putting my Armalite M15A4 on the EE pretty soon, but i've never shipped a firearm before. How do you go about doing it? From one FFL to another, you just have them mail each other their licenses and then my FFL sends it to the buyer's? Thanks for the help.
Link Posted: 6/23/2003 7:07:33 PM EDT
You do not have to use FFL's on both ends. You can ship it via UPS, USPS or FedEx. You need to get a copy of the FFL signed in Blue ink, or the 1st 3 digits and last five of the receivers FFL licensce and verify it here:

199.196.145.75/FFLeZCheck

So long as your are not an FFL you simply need to check that you are, in fact, sending it to an FFL. There is no need for you to maintain the FFL copy, and many will not provide it to a normal citizen.

You can NOT send handguns via USPS. I send all air delivery UPS. There is something official on this, but I'm not sure of it.

Jim_Dandy seems to have a VERY GOOD handle on these rules/laws.

Ed
Link Posted: 6/23/2003 7:10:30 PM EDT
Also, if for whatever reason you insured it, which you should...you can go two routes:

Claim it as a "set of machined parts" or claim it as a rifle. You may have issues with the first suggestion, but at least you won't immediately tip off the delivery boy what is in the box.

There will be other suggestions to come along.
Link Posted: 6/23/2003 8:01:19 PM EDT
Rifles, long guns can be shipped USPS but must be declared as a firearm to the clerk. Dont seal the box because he can/may look in the box.
Do not include any ammo in the box and it would be a good idea to remove the bolt and carrier from the rifle. That way if he decides to look in the box he will know its unloaded.
Do not in any way mark on the box anything to indicate there is a firearm inside. ie: if you are shipping to Bushmaster address it BMinc.
Any person can ship to an FFL holder (licence firearms dealer). You just cant ship to a person, you must ship to his dealer. He must send you a copy of his dealers licence before you ship. Take a copy with you to the post office, they may ask to see it.
If you know the dealer already you dont need a copy of the licence. If your gun needs service you can send it to the manufacturer with no paper.
Handguns may not be shipped USPS but must be shipped by common carrier, overnight air. Above rules regarding FFL's apply.
Like Shivan said, you dont technichally need a copy of his dealers FFL but thats how its usually done.
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 9:45:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By captainpooby:
Rifles, long guns can be shipped USPS but must be declared as a firearm to the clerk. Dont seal the box because he can/may look in the box.
Do not include any ammo in the box and it would be a good idea to remove the bolt and carrier from the rifle. That way if he decides to look in the box he will know its unloaded.
Do not in any way mark on the box anything to indicate there is a firearm inside. ie: if you are shipping to Bushmaster address it BMinc.
Any person can ship to an FFL holder (licence firearms dealer). You just cant ship to a person, you must ship to his dealer. He must send you a copy of his dealers licence before you ship. Take a copy with you to the post office, they may ask to see it.
If you know the dealer already you dont need a copy of the licence. If your gun needs service you can send it to the manufacturer with no paper.
Handguns may not be shipped USPS but must be shipped by common carrier, overnight air. Above rules regarding FFL's apply.
Like Shivan said, you dont technichally need a copy of his dealers FFL but thats how its usually done.



The above, in red, is incorrect. Most times FFL's will not provide their license copy to anyone other than another FFL. You also have no need to have the copy as you are not required by Federal law to keep a bound book. The average citizen must make every effort to insure they are sending to an FFL. This is where the link above aids in that determination.

IF you buyer happens to have a friendly FFL who doesn't care who he sends his license out to, then it is a good thing to get, but it is not necessary to have -- UNLESS YOU YOURSELF ARE AN FFL, THEN YOU MUST HAVE IT.

Ed
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 1:31:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/24/2003 1:34:15 PM EDT by M4Madness]
432 Mailability
432.1 General
The following conditions apply:
a. Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (referred to as handguns) are nonmailable in the domestic mail except as permitted in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM C024.1.0.
b. The disassembled parts of a handgun or other type of nonmailable firearm that can be readily reassembled as a weapon are nonmailable except as permitted in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM C024.1.0 or C024.2.0.
c. Unloaded antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces are generally permitted as specified in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM C024.2.0.
d. Unloaded rifles and shotguns may be mailed if the mailer fully complies with the Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618) and 18 U.S.C. 921. The mailer may be required to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not excluded from mailing because of the restrictions in 431.2b and c.
432.2 PS Form 1508
PS Form 1508, Statement by Shipper of Firearms, must be completed by each firearm manufacturer or dealer who deposits firearms for mailing. The form must be filed with the postmaster of the post office of mailing.


Link Posted: 6/24/2003 1:42:14 PM EDT
Thanks for the help guys, appreciate it!
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 2:17:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By M4Madness:
432 Mailability
432.1 General
The following conditions apply:
a. Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (referred to as handguns) are nonmailable in the domestic mail except as permitted in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM C024.1.0.
b. The disassembled parts of a handgun or other type of nonmailable firearm that can be readily reassembled as a weapon are nonmailable except as permitted in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM C024.1.0 or C024.2.0.
c. Unloaded antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces are generally permitted as specified in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM C024.2.0.
d. Unloaded rifles and shotguns may be mailed if the mailer fully complies with the Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618) and 18 U.S.C. 921. The mailer may be required to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not excluded from mailing because of the restrictions in 431.2b and c.
432.2 PS Form 1508
PS Form 1508, Statement by Shipper of Firearms, must be completed by each firearm manufacturer or dealer who deposits firearms for mailing. The form must be filed with the postmaster of the post office of mailing.





This would imply that this person holds a Federal license to manufacture or deal in firearms. Like a Class II/SOT or FFL.

I am positive that does NOT apply for a private party shipment to an out of state FFL.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 5:35:12 AM EDT
Here's the skinny felleas. This info comes directly from the FFL holder I ship everything to, and from.

1. A private citizen is allowed to ship longuns through the USPS, but must declare it as a gun. They have to send it to an FFL holder, so the attempt needs to be made, by whatever means necessary, to verify the information on the other end.

2. Handguns are allowed to go through the mail, but they have to go from one FFL to another, and the sending FFL must have papperwork on file with the PO branch from which he/she is sending.

That's the gory story.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 3:31:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN458:
I am positive that does NOT apply for a private party shipment to an out of state FFL.



Technically, even private individuals are required to fill out PS Form 1508. The post office just assumes in its writings seen in the post above that only a dealer or manufacturer does the mailing. The post office can also require to see the FFL copy if they choose and include that information on the form as well.

As for the ATF EZ-Check, it says right on that ATF webpage that you are not supposed to accept the results of that on-line check in lieu of the the real ink-signed copy either. It is to be used to verify the shipping address and standing of the dealer in question.

Now, to be honest, the times that I have mailed firearms I have never filled out the PS Form 1508, as I never knew about it at the time of shipping. When I have bought firearms over the internet, my dealer has always provided me with an FFL copy, even when sending it to a private individual.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 4:25:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2003 4:28:04 PM EDT by SHIVAN458]

Originally Posted By M4Madness:

Originally Posted By SHIVAN458:
I am positive that does NOT apply for a private party shipment to an out of state FFL.



Technically, even private individuals are required to fill out PS Form 1508. The post office just assumes in its writings seen in the post above that only a dealer or manufacturer does the mailing. The post office can also require to see the FFL copy if they choose and include that information on the form as well.

As for the ATF EZ-Check, it says right on that ATF webpage that you are not supposed to accept the results of that on-line check in lieu of the the real ink-signed copy either. It is to be used to verify the shipping address and standing of the dealer in question.

Now, to be honest, the times that I have mailed firearms I have never filled out the PS Form 1508, as I never knew about it at the time of shipping. When I have bought firearms over the internet, my dealer has always provided me with an FFL copy, even when sending it to a private individual.



The language on the ATF EZ Check is written for DEALERS {FFL holders}. The language of the law/rule you quoted above applies ONLY TO DEALERS {FFL Holders and Manufacturers}. As a citizen you are NOT required to fill out that form. I have sent numerous guns and have talked with at least 4 different supervisors regarding this topic at the USPS. Their general skittishness has led me to use UPS for ALL my firearms shipping.

Laws and rules that include language applying to dealers and manufacturers should not, nor would it in court, apply to the average citizen.

It is the private party's responsibility to confirm they are mailing to an FFL after that there are no further forms to fill out or sign, unless you insure it for over a certain amount at UPS. Then you have to sign their insurance form, although with my UPS account they just fill it out for me. {Now if you happen to have a buyer who CAN get an FFL copy signed in blue ink from his FFL then it is a good FIRST step to verifying, you also need a phone number so you can call.}

You may find ignorant people at any USPS, FedEX, or UPS facility that makes you fill out forms you do not need to, but that does NOT make it the law -- hell most of the time they screw up their own rules.

YMMV....
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 5:17:28 PM EDT
I have a copy of a letter from the BATF that says that FFL's are only to be sent between FFL holders. FFL holders should not send signed FFL copies to individuals. This was put out to FFL holders in the last year or so. Individuals can verify the FFL holder with the EZ check system. All you are doing is verifying the shipping address and the status of the FFL. Personally, I like to get a copy of the FFL for my records, but if they prefer not to send it...no problem...I just record the FFL number. Robar and Shivan hit the nail on the head.
Link Posted: 6/25/2003 5:20:37 PM EDT
One more thing...you may find that the FFL holder you are shipping to will only accept shipments from another FFL holder. This is not required by law. Some FFL holders either misunderstand the law or just have a personal preference. I've been running into this alot lately as a seller. There's not alot you can do, but just be sure to ask up front so your shipment isn't refused.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 3:44:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2003 3:59:50 AM EDT by Jim_Dandy]

Dont seal the box because he can/may look in the box.

Incorrect. Verification may be completed via opening and inspecting or by providing a short written statement to the postmaster.

Direct from the USPS DMM:

"3.0 RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS
Although unloaded rifles and shotguns not precluded by 1.1e and 1.2 are mailable,
mailers must comply with the Gun Control Act of 1968, Public Law 90-618, 18
USC 921, et seq., and the rules and regulations promulgated thereunder, 27 CFR
178, as well as state and local laws. The mailer may be required by the USPS to
establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded
and not precluded by 1.1e."




Technically, even private individuals are required to fill out PS Form 1508.

Incorrect. The form is only required to be filed by FFL holders who are shipping handguns or have a large volume of parcels where blanket declaration is needed.

Direct from the USPS DMM:

"Handguns
1.2
Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person
(referred to as handguns) are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties
listed in 1.3 and 1.5 after the filing of an affidavit or statement required by 1.4
and 1.6."

Here is a link to Form 1508.


The header reads:

"This form can only be used by manufacturers or dealers of firearms."

The opening text is:

"The undersigned is a manufacturer of firearms or bona fide dealer therein, and the parcels presented for mailing
herewith are customary trade shipments or other articles for repair or replacement of parts. To the best of my
knowledge and belief, the addresses are manufacturers of firearms or bona fide dealers therein."




1. A private citizen is allowed to ship longuns through the USPS, but must declare it as a gun. They have to send it to an FFL holder, so the attempt needs to be made, by whatever means necessary, to verify the information on the other end.

This is more or less true, but unless there is some state or local law preventing it, shipments can be made intrastate to a non-licensee.




Jim_Dandy seems to have a VERY GOOD handle on these rules/laws.

I have the assholes at the local UPS counter to thank for that. They forced me to come up with a better way to ship firearms than mess with them and their petty BS. It worked out better anyway.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 2:08:11 PM EDT
Hey, guys, I'm man enough to admit that I'm wrong about the PS Form 1508. A local postal clerk is the one who told me such.

I've always used the simple approach when mailing a firearm. I request an ink-signed copy of the FFL and mail the firearm via the USPS to the dealer's address shown on the FFL copy. I have never declared it a firearm either.

So far no one's dealer has refused to send an FFL copy to me (private individual) and my dealer always provides them to me to send to individuals as well as dealers.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 8:06:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By M4Madness:
Hey, guys, I'm man enough to admit that I'm wrong about the PS Form 1508. A local postal clerk is the one who told me such.

I've always used the simple approach when mailing a firearm. I request an ink-signed copy of the FFL and mail the firearm via the USPS to the dealer's address shown on the FFL copy. I have never declared it a firearm either.

So far no one's dealer has refused to send an FFL copy to me (private individual) and my dealer always provides them to me to send to individuals as well as dealers.



M4:

I think this was new advice to FFL's via the ATF letterhead. My FFL provided copies the first two guns I bought and had shipped to them. After that, they wouldn't do it. Never said why, but I read that the ATF or BATFe had issued a letter suggesting against it and put two and two together.

If you can get them as the seller that is GREAT, but you do not need them to proceed -- UNLESS you are an FFL/Manufacturer yourself.

These people screw up more rules and laws than you know. AS you can tell Jim_Dandy learned his stuff because UPS was stupid -- I learned mine because USPS was stupid.

YMMV...you may end up using FedEx exclusively.

Good luck guys.....stay legal.
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