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Posted: 2/11/2003 3:36:46 PM EDT
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I have a Cetme now, and as sure as I get a second AR(15), I'll be looking for a better upgrade for .308 HK is out completely. I love them but I believe in shooting, not storing and besides, for that kind of money I better be filling out class III paperwork. So AR-10 FN or am I missing something? I love the M-14, but the Springfield semi is too expensive for what you are getting (IMO). |
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The AR-10 will shoot rings around anything in its price range & a whole lot more expensive. Armalite guarantees each AR-10 to be "National Match" quality. I still own a G3 & used to have a L1A1, there's NO comparasion for quality & accuracy. I've never heard of an AR-10 owner regretting buying theirs. Can't say that about FALs. |
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Own a Cetme, an L1A1 and an M1A. I have also played extensively with other people's AR10s... For me, hands down, the FAL/L1A1 is the choice to go with. And anyone who says an FN isn't accurate clearly has no experience with a customized FN from someone like DSA. They make them with match bull barrels and will deliver MOA or better accuracy. Comparing a $400 military parts gun to a $1,500 plus match AR10 is an unfair comparisson. Put apples and apples together and then compare. FN parts are more widely available and cheaper. You can buy around 10 new FN metric mags for the cost of ONE AR10 highcap. In my experience the FAL/L1A1 system is a hell of a lot easier to work on then the AR15/10 series rifle. What the AR10 does have in its favor is a superior sight system if you don't have a flat-top, and if you do you can put a detachable carry handle on it or flip up sights. A recent DSA target FAL I saw had a hooded rear sight and diopter front sight. That was every bit as nice as the AR series sights, in fact better. So, let's be fair and define some parameters here to make it a legitimate argument. |
For somebody that protests about making an apples-to-oranges/unfair argument you certainly have alot to say! While you missed the point of my inquiry, your argument(s) have nonetheless captured the spirit of the debate. Your comments and those of others lead me to believe that STOCK FNs are (generally) inferior to AR-10s regarding accuracy. On the other hand, the cost of the AR-10, the cost of its magazines, and the availability of (affordable) parts all tend to be problematic, thus giving the FN an edge on 3 points. Simply saying one is better is useless to a reader. Explaining why you would chose it, defending your choice, and exploiting the vulnerabilities of the other rifle all make for a good exchange of information on a post. Apples to oranges my ass. I want to upgrade a .308 rifle from a Cetme. Both the FN and the AR-10 qualify for different, albeit significant reasons for one that wishes to USE the weapon. So thanks for your post, it helps with the decision making proess. |
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I don't know if this is in the spirit of the debate but here goes. I have 2 Armalite AR10 rifles. A 16" carbine model and a 20" rifle version. I have put many rounds through the carbine version and it has been totally reliable. It's a flattop model that has a Leupold scope mounted and accuracy has been quite impressive. I haven't shot the 20" rifle version much, probably only had it to the range once and don't really recall how it shot. I generally like the way the carbine handles. The AR10s controls being situated the same as an AR15 makes operating the safety & mag release second nature. They are right where they are supposed to be, in reach without having to reposition either hand. Makes for quick shooting and quick mag changes. The trigger pull quality on my AR10s are quite similar to my Fals but the AR10 does have drop in options for much better triggers. Not so for the Fal. Tuning the Fal trigger isn't something I'd personally do but it is something that can be done. Recoil seems less than a .308 bolt rifle so reasonably quick follow-up shots can be made (not as fast as an AR15 though). Armalites reputation for quality control and also their reputation for factory service when things do go wrong is excellent. The main complaints of the Armalite AR10 rifles seem to center around high initial price of the rifles and high 20-round mag prices. All I can say about these two complaints is go out and find a factory built, with new manufactured parts, semi-automatic .308 rifle for less than $1000 (the cost of a new Eagle Arms AR10). Can't be done!!! If you want to complain about the mag prices, go try to find Glock hi-cap mags for less than $80, very difficult! Its not an AR15 or an Fal for that matter. There haven't litterally been millions of AR10 mags made like there have been AR15 & Fal mags. Now that I've said all that let me talk about the FAL. Before actually owning (built them myself) a couple of Fals I would never have thought I would be comparing them to my AR10s. I always thought they were nothing more than cheap parts guns. Well, they are but, they are also more than that. When built properly with in-spec parts and receivers by competent people they are definitely capable of the kind of reliability and accuracy of an AR10. In fact, the Fal gives you more in the way of value than an AR10. You can easily find an Fal to fit any budget. The price range for Fals starts at around $450 for a cheap parts gun and goes up to $1800+ for a top of the line DSArms rifle. Just decide how much you want to spend and write the check. Shooting impressions of the Fal are mixed. I have both carbine (16") and a rifle (20") versions. I have put about 500 rounds through both of them and they have been reliable (once I got the gas setting and a few other minor things worked out, remember I built these myself). I haven't been able to do any serious accuracy testing on them as I have only gotten them to a 25 yard range. It will be interesting to do a side by side comparison when the weather warms up this spring. My initial thoughts on them are good though, I can easily shoot one hole groups with them seated from a rest using iron sights at the indoor range. Comparing the user friendliness is a different story. The safety is just a bit out of comfortable reach for me which necessitates using the support hand to disengage the safety so shooting isn't as quick from a safety-on stand point. As for the mag release. Its neither convenient nor comfortable to access. You must use the support hand to engage the mag release which is going to increase mag change times compared to the AR10. Also, the mags don't slip in straight and drop free like the AR15/AR10 rifles. It uses a camming action like the AK series rifles which for me personally isn't as natural. I haven't shot AKs very much but for someone used to them it probably isn't a problem. Recoil from my point of view seems slightly less than the AR10s. Follow up shots are just slightly quicker than the AR10 and this without a muzzle brake on my Fal carbine. Shooting the Fal seems just slightly more comfortable than the Fal. A definite plus for the Fal is the sight arrangement. The standard iron sights aren't intrusive the way an AR10s sights are. If you use a scope mounting dust cover and see through scope rings you would have very quickly usable backup iron sights. It would be difficult and expensive to match this arrangement on an AR10. Not to say you couldn't have both good quality irons sights and a scope setup on an AR10, it just wouldn't be as simple (or cheap). Standard iron sights for the AR10 add much more weight to the rifle compared to the Fal. From a maintenance standpoint I think they are a draw. Cleaning is another story. In this the Fal wins mainly due to its piston system as opposed to the direct gas system of the AR10. Cleaning the Fal is a matter of pulling the gas plug & piston and wiping them down and cleaning the barrel. If you want you can pull the bolt and wipe it down and clean the bolt face but for regular maintenance this could be skipped. Cleaning the AR10 after a particularly long range session is messy! The bolt must be pulled, disassembled and scrubbed. The inside of the upper receiver must be cleaned. Cleaning inside of the bolt recess of the barrel isn't a picnic either. You could skip these steps but would you really want to on a $1000+ rifle? Conclusion (personal thoughts, I could be wrong): Price for a factory built rifle:Tie Price for a parts gun:Fal wins Magazine Price:Fal wins User friendliness:AR10 wins Reliability:Tie Accuracy:Not sure Trigger pull:AR10 Sights:Fal wins Cleaning:Fal wins (Big) My reccomendations: Definitely buy both! If that's not an option I suggest carefully choosing what things are most important to you. Just remember the low cost Fals are sometimes a crap shoot. |
| I to also own an LEO AR-10A2/4. I recently had the A2 upper switched out to an A4 because the rifle is so accurate it needed glass. I think for a counter sniper rifle, DMR, SPR or something along those lines, than the AR-10 is it. I would even take mine into battle if I had the choice. Mine has been 100% reliable with four brands of milsurp, I can't say that with my G3. I would say get an AR-10 and later if you want, get a FAL. |
I have an old pre-ban M1A supermatch (Springfield verified it as being a 1988 build), and an L1A1. I haven't touched an AR10 yet, but..well, it's a big AR15, and we all know how those are like  The M1A is as smooth as glass in all aspects. Mag changes, loading and unloading, chambering, firing, the whole 9 yards. It's just a sweet rifle. I took off it's bedded stock and put on one of Fred's GI synthetics, and it's an MOA gun at 200 yards still, with glass. I swapped out stocks because to me, cleaning a rifle means taking it all the way down. I didn't want to screw up the original bedding. Downsides is that it's difficult to clean it from the bore forwards (as they should be cleaned), and cleaning the gas chamber and the whole area is kind of involving. Not to mention how much a pain in the butt it is to take off the op rod and properly clean the bolt... Having said all that, I'd carry it anywhere, anyday. Now, the L1A1...my problem child. The gas tube retaining pin walks out on it; I need to swap out gas tubes and see if that fixes the problem. (Hopefully, it will). That nit aside...man, if I had to choose between the L1A1 and the M1A, I'd be in a constant recycle mode. Never would be able to make a choice. The L1A1 shoulders fantastic. Swapping mags on the M1A is a little easier IMO, but the L1A1 feels...I dunno..better. I've printed 2 inch groups consistently at 100 yards, using a tri-lux. Almost always an acknoledged flyer in the group, but you get the idea. I'm no great bench shooter When it's functioning (before the pin walks out on it), it's sweet. It chambers rougher than the M1A, but there's no external reciprocating parts to worry about, either.Where the L1A1 shines is in the post-shooting cleaning. It's SOO easy to clean these things. Wipe off the gas rod, cleaning the bolt assembly is a snap, and you can properly clean from bore to muzzle. Not to mention, you can snag 30 round mags for L1A1's. That alone rocks  You can also swap out covers for scopes and stuff in a snap. It's a little more difficult to properly fit and tighten an M1A mount without shooting it a couple times, and tightening after each round until it's settled.Also, the good Springfield mounts on M1A's WILL mar the brass; the brass bounces directly off of it. You can at least adjust FAL's/L1A1's to control their ejection with the gas settings. This won't matter to anyone except reloaders. (There's also a slight chance the brass will bounce right back into the action; it's happened to me a couple times on my M1A...but, YMMV.) As far as the AR10 goes..we all know how much of a pain cleaning an AR can be, especially after a long day at the range. As I said, I'm fastidious about cleaning, so, the ARs aren't my favorite things to clean. Remember, the FAL/L1A1 was carried by soldiers all over the world since the 50's and it's still being carried. The M1A/M14 only lasted a few years in service. The AR series is so far the longest standard service weapon of the United States...there are still debates if that's because of the whole weapon system's expandability, or what. If the M14 had been as modifiable as the AR series, things may well have been different. In the end...I say... Buy an example of 'em all You can't go wrong with that
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| I'm getting to the point where I consider a rifle's sights to be one of it's most important attributes. I'm tired of rifles that were designed to be sighted in once by an armorer and never touched again. That's were the AR10 has it all over my FAL. The FAL needs a screwdriver to adjust the windage, or a corncob holder to fine tune the elevation via the front sight. It sucks mounting a scope on a FAL. You have to remove the rear sight or use real high rings to mount a scope. Oftentimes, the rear sight gets in the way of the eyepiece. If you mount the scope high, then you are left with a rifle where the irons work OK, but the scope sits too high for a decent cheek weld. What's the use of a decent scope if you can't get a stable cheek weld? It also makes snap shots through the scope very improbable. Oh, and the rear sight of the FAL always seems to end up in my glasses. The FAL is a fun gun, but certainly not the best for serious riflemen. |
No. How many minutes in each rear sight windage click? How many minutes in each rear sight elevation click? I don't think I like the idea of a hooded rear sight on the FAL. It already bites glasses just fine. |
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Just to add fuel to the fire, I have 2 pre-ban FN-FALs. The AR-10s I have shot are Very accurate, reliable weapons. They are also expensive. Mags are the worst, $60.00 a piece and up. They also have to be modified. The FALs I have shot are also accurate and reliable weapons. But where the FAL shines in the debate is cost. Pre-ban FALs can be had for around $1500.00 And mags and parts are dirt cheap. Either would be a fine rifle, but for simple economics the FAL would be my choice. Let's face it, the object is to hit the target, and fire every time you pull the trigger. Every thing else is secondary. |
Does this qualify?  Doesn't sound too happy to me...www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=62&t=149549 Didn't have to look too hard. |
| In all fairness SP10, this was not a problem with the weapon itself but the guy did not like the trigger. I know alot of guys who love their DSAs but hate their triggers, does that mean that their DSAs are problemed rifles? I must admit to being a HUGE AR-10 fan but I have also read many posts about people having problems with theirs. I can't figure it out but mine runs like a champ with all of my mags(Armalite standard 20 rds and converts) with surplus ammo. |
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Well, I was only able to go back 30 days, but to say everyone is joyously happy with the AR10 platform is misleading. Over the years, quite a few members have had FTF, FTE problems, some unresolved. Just recently, several board members had magazine dropping issues not addressed by replacing the mag catch. My own AR10 had some teething problems. I do like it, admittedly. Oh yeah, my DSA could use a better trigger as well, but it has been a near flawless performer. I couldn't say that about my AR10. |
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