Armory Sponsor
Posted: 1/14/2003 12:08:15 AM EDT
| As far as handguns go I shoot .45 ACP exclusively. I have 2 at the ready for self defense. My nightstand .45, (a Para Ordnance 14.45 LDA) Is loaded with 90gr. RBCD, a frangible that makes Mag Safe look like a sling shot. My glove box .45 a Para C7 currently loaded with 230 gr. Hydrashoks. I feel confident in my choice with my home defense ammo, but am wondering if Federal Hydrashoks are the best way to go for an outdoor urban setting, especially since I am getting my concealed carry permit. What load do you carry or consider best suitable for urban/self-defense? I am thinking about stopping power first and foremost, but am also keeping in mind penetration (i.e. car doors) & other factors associated with carrying in the city. |
|
I carry Federal 230gr Hyrda-Shok for a couple of reasons, which may not apply to anyone else: Other than a SIG P220, I carry 1911s exclusively. 1911's are designed to feed a ball profile 230 grain bullet. The Hydra-Shok has a nice rounded ogive that matches ball ammo closely. It has the same recoil and point of impact as my 230gr practice load, Black Hills 230 FMJ. Its got a decent reputation for stopping power. And from what the jello-junkies write, the penetration and expansion are right where I want them. Not too much, not too little. That being said, I wouldnt feel any worse off with 230gr Golden Saber, 230 Gold Dots, or any of the +P 185s. Pick a load you like and put 200 rounds through your gun. The one that is reliable and accurate is the load you need. |
|
I was thinking the same thing. We fret so much about bullet shape and weight. There are ALOT of dead people from standard 230 grain FMJ ball ammo. When you get hit and penetrated by something with the energy of say a Volkswagon Beetle going about 60 MPH, you're dead I don't care what it's shaped like. I get whatever feeds well in my gun that has 230 grains of weight. |
|
Fell in love with Speer Gold Dots after watching a cop kill a deer that had been hit by a car with two shots from a Beretta 9mm. The deer was obviously in alot of pain after having its legs crushed by the business end of a Volvo, so the cop checked his backstop and put two shots of 9mm through the deer's vitals. Lemme tell you, the Gold Dot does a great job of bursting a leather bag--the deer bled out and was stone cold dead in 30 seconds. If a 9mm does that, I wonder what the flying ashtray .45acp Gold Dots do. Just in case I'm wrong, I also carry Golden Sabers and 230 grain Hydra Shoks. |
|
For what it's worth, I use 200+P Gold Dots in my Sig P-220 in the house. Spair mag is loaded with 230 gr. Golden Sabers . This round was recommended by my neighbor who is the FBI Tactical Commander for the Arizona SWAT Team. These rounds in the "bonded" bullet have the best expansion after penitration of glass they have seen. This load is what the FBI HRT 1911 Springfields use. And the FBI has just changed from Hydroshocks in all other hand guns and gone to the Gold Dots with the exception of the 45 that was designed around the Remington load. |
In all seriousness Stokes, No concern over overpenetration? Thats a lot of liability considering its going to cut through flesh like an icepick and is guaranteed to exit with a great deal of terminal velocity left. |
| Considering all strong armmed robberies are at arms length does it really matter ? Ball , hydroshocks , eagal talons what ever . At such a close range your not going to miss and your target will be on the ground in too much pain to do anything else no ? It would be best to carry a back up though . I had a friend who got robbed . After taking his wallet he ordered him to his knees and got behind him . Putting the muzzled to the back of his head he searched his belt line for a gun , but he didn't search anywheres else . So in this worst situation if his was carrying a weapon the robber might have gotten too nervous and just blown his head off , but if he was carring both a side holstered weapon AND a backup in the calf holster he would at the very least have had a chance to distract him long enough to grab his back up and fire . This of course is the worst situation of all , but it happens . So the guys sitting there for a few minutes with the muzzle still on the back of his head , wondering what to do . Finally my friend just gets up and runs . And he fell flat on his face after running 10 meters . The guy took a shot at him and then he rounded the corner of his complex . My friend ran across the street and got to a phone . Called the cops , but the guy got away . ALWAYS CARRY A BACK UP ! |
|
"I was thinking the same thing. We fret so much about bullet shape and weight. There are ALOT of dead people from standard 230 grain FMJ ball ammo." Thanks for your thoughts guys. Lessons in war are important but there are many fundamental differences. First of all OUR objective is NOT TO KILL. My personal thoughts: If he/she happens to die from the wounds inflicted in self defense, well... fuck him/her. The main point however is that intent to kill can cost you 2 things Your freedom: If you say your intent was to kill you will be arrested. We are only allowed to use deadly force to STOP an assailant, not kill one. Your life: I know that shot placement with anything will kill. Certain calibers/loads however are more sucessful as stoppers. I refuse to touch a 9mm because while I am certain a good shot will kill the person, a better chance exists that he/she will still be standing and with an adrenaline rush direct a few shots at me (please don't spark off a 9mm vs .45 debate about this). If I had to choose I would take the "stop the target though it lives" scenario vs the "kill the target but it has 3 seconds to return the favor" scenario. This is why I favor JHP over FMJ, but I will say in a heartbeat that a reliably feeding FMJ beats the hell out of an unpredictable JHP. |
|
Wilson Combat recomends the Hornady 200Gn XTP. When I carried a .45, it was loaded with Remington 230Gn Golden Saber. I had some problems with deflection, and jacket core seperation when shooting through glass. Remington apparently offers a Bonded version now. Bonded bullets, like the Gold dot line are a really good idea if you will be shooting through glass. |
1. Keeping a weapon in the glove box - nice gift for a car thief. 2. "I am getting my CCW" so.... that gun in the glove box.... that'd be illegal. 3. Best round: The same weight you practice with, standard pressure, thus it is most similar to what you actually practice with.... it ain't about a magic bullet... it is about well placed shots. FWIW - some of the local LEAs were testing that Aguila (sp?) .45 ammo - super hot 117 grn .... blowin through their vest AND trauma plate..... Good luck |
|
I'm still sticking with 230Gr Ball. Considering ALL the factors, it truely is the best choice. I'm lucky enough that I don't worry about Mall Ninja scenarios. I don't worry about back up guns, bullet proof vests, shooting through glass (especially in a self defense scenario!!), or if one majik bulit works better than the other. Overpenetration is the only thing I even slightly concern myself over in a CCW. I don't imagine that I'll be in a situation where I need to use deadly force but will have to worry about bullets slinging through dead bad guys into school buses. These scenarios happen when you're by yourself, or in desperate enough situations that overpenetration is the secondary concern (living through it yourself and minimizing bad guy damage is the first!) The absolute best carry gun and load is one that you have on you and are proficient with. No majik bulit is going to save your ass. |
|
1. Keeping a weapon in the glove box - nice gift for a car thief. 2. "I am getting my CCW" so.... that gun in the glove box.... that'd be illegal. #1. TRUE, but I can't take it out of the car legally (until CCP) without risking a disturbing the peace violation. #2. FALSE- where I live the car is an extension of one's home. Not knowing your laws is as stupid as not knowing how to handle your weapon. |
I have no intention of merely injuring anybody. If the situation has escalated to the point where I am even displaying my weapon, it means my life is already in serious danger. The whole point of CCW is so that I may live, not the bad guy. Your view point might be that of an LEO. For a civilian, IMHO, it is much different. A civilian can't radio for backup, and even if he was able to get a call through to 911, do you think LEO's are going to respond as quickly to "shots fired" as to "Officer needs assistance" or "Officer down"? I know for a fact that nothing will get the cavalry charging as quickly as an LEO in danger, and that is as it should be. For me, the surest way to end the threat is to END the threat. If, in trying to stop the actions of a bad guy, I happen to disable him to the point where he is no longer a threat but is still alive, well, then that's the exception. But I'm more inclined to try for a chest or head shot than just something that will make them "want" to quit. Same reason I said I have a 12ga. shotgun for home defense. If there were a concealable pistol with the terminal effects of a 12 ga., that's what I would be carrying. |
| I carry 230 grain HydraShocks in my Kimber StainlessII 5inch barrel. When I had my Glock36 3.5 inch barrel I carried 165 grain hydrashocks. My thinking was with the shorter barrel I needed a lighter bullet to get the volocity to cause expansion. That was my thinking take it or leave it. |
|
There are so many good ones and its hard to wrong with the ones mentioned above but. I chose C0R-BON +P 165gr JHP because they mushroom more reliable than most and because I have glocks and shoot 9mm +P+ Winchester Ranger. Now you may ask what one has to do with the other. Well perhaps nothing but they both have the same muzzle velocity and it makes a difference when shooting ( same point of aim and same amount of lead) at moving targets at 100 yards. I know it sounds dumb and if you only shoot .45 acp it may make no difference but it is easer to lead your longer range moving targets when your bullet is moving 1,250fps rather that 890fps. THISISME |
|
"I have no intention of merely injuring anybody. If the situation has escalated to the point where I am even displaying my weapon, it means my life is already in serious danger. The whole point of CCW is so that I may live, not the bad guy. " -- GUS Gus, Do you have a CCP? I don't know where you live but in the state of LA if you explain to an officer that your intent was to KILL, not stop the assailant you will be booked for murder. This was explained to me by an officer teaching my CCW class, so I lean heavily on his words. Don't misunderstand my point. If in a situation, I intend to aim for certain places that maximize stopping power (center mass then head), which coincidentally are good kill zones. By stopping, I WOULD NEVER SUGGEST ONE TO SHOOT TO WOUND. I mean do what you must, shut your mouth and get a lawyer. |
|
The intent of carrying a concealed weapon is to SURVIVE. Shot placement is ALWAYS centermass which happens to be the lung/diaphram/heart /stomach area. My INTENT is to survive by placing all my shots CENTER MASS, and only stopping when the percieved threat is NO LONGER A THEREAT. Which in most cases is dead. And in order to facilitate my survival I carry 2 mags of Winchester XST and a mag of Hyrodshoks and COR BON's staggered. All 230 grn. |
|
230 gr Golden Saber's, 200 gr standard and +P Gold Dots (or Pro Load), 230 gr Gold Gold Dots/Pro Load - in my fullsizes. 185 gr Golden Sabers in my compact. If a 230 gr FMJ is effective, then a 230 gr JHP can only be better. If it doesnt expand at all, it still performs like a fmj, so your good either way. By the way, the supposed over penetration of a .45 fmj is way overblown. Contrary to popular belief, they dont go flying through two or three people. If they do even exit the first body, they wont have enough energy left to do much damage at all. You are pushing a pretty heavy large bullet at fairly low speeds on the average. 9mm FMJ are more of a concern than a .45. Smaller frontal area and higher velocity. But remember, I'm no expert. 
|
I guess I worded that a little suggestively. I never intend to wound OR kill anyone. However, if I have to defend myself, the outcome is entirely the fault of the aggressor. |
|
I'm not going to recommend a specific round to carry. I suggest you view some research from someone who actually tests rounds rather than people who are basing their opinions on other peoples opinions. www.ammolab.com/ |
I'm going with Stokes on this one.. I carry 230 gr. FMJ Federal Match in my TRS. I want my defense attorney telling that jury how his client only carries target ammo and not those "mean old killer hollowpoints". Besides exit wounds bleed alot more than entry wounds.
|
Dude, you're going to jail. If you have to lead a long range target, the prosecution will only take about two seconds to convince the jury that you're a murderer not acting in self defense. |
Amen brother. I use Corbon myself. Either .40 S+W or .45 ACP www.corbon.com/stoppingpower.html 90% + stopping power is good enough for me. Remember regardless of what you use.... "I was in fear for my life and the lives of my family." |
Are you using 9mm ball ammo? The Germans used that for longer than we did. All those dead Americans and Russians can't be wrong. Or the anemic 7.62x25mm ammo, the Russians used that in their PSH submachine guns. All those dead Germans and Japanese and Russians can't be wrong either. |
I guess you can't read, but can make some stupid assumptions. As stated, I use 230gr ball out of a 45ACP, not 9mm Ball. |
No, I can read. If we are using the number of people killed with pistol ammo in WWII as a criteria for choosing a load to carry, I bet that .45acp ball ammo would come in third for casualty causing. I bet more Russians and Germans were killed by either 9mm ball or 7.62x25mm ball than .45 (I am counting the Russians killed by fellow Russians i.e. death squads) but to suggest to use 7.62x25mm ball or 9mm ball as a carry load on this board would be cause to be laughed at. Sure, .45acp did the job in WWII, but it would have done the job better with hydrashoks or golden sabers. |
[rant mode] I was reading the "what if SHTF" thread earlier today, and nobody could agree over there either. One said we'd have to form up in "gangs" to help each other and watch each others backs. Another said that he'd be on the side with the LEO's (another "group" on men, or "gang" for lack of a better term) looking for the gangs, to eliminate them. Just what we need in post SHTF America, Americans killing Americans. I'm sure the terrorist who troll this site love to read threads like this one. The longer I'm on this site the more I realize that we're all fucked if the SHTF. Lighten up guy's. If we can't even agree to disagree cordially with something as simple as THERE AINT A FUCKING BULLET MADE THAT WONT KILL A MAN, without insulting each other's intelligence and calling into question morals, ethics etc. We are doomed. I know now that when the SHTF, I'm shooting ANYBODY who comes near my abode. With whatever ammo I have available. Course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong. [/rant mode] |
I was playing devil's advocate, not advocating that everyone run around in a gang. "Gang" is simply a derogatory term nowadays. Did you run around with a "gang" of your friends when you were in grade school? Spanky & The Gang type of gang, not thugs. I wasn't making reference to the urban druglord gangs that people think of anyway. Besides, [nomex suit]urban cops are basically a unionized gang of thugs anyway.[/nomex] |
|
I wasn't against you for wanting OR not wanting to run with a "gang" in post SHTF scenarios. Hell, I think I'd rather have several buddies cover my back post SHTF. I was just playing Devils advocate in my previous post. Some of the petty arguments between members here just freak me out. If we can't stick together and learn to cordially disagree on minor issues NOW, how in the world are we ever going to make it when there is barely enough food to survive? The people here are who I would like to consider my buddies in post SHTF, would probably shoot me just cuz I don't have a .45......yet. And if I did have a .45, there are some who would probably still shoot me cuz I didn't carry the same ammo as they did. I can kill any man deader than a doornail with a freaking wrist rocket, you do not NEED any more than that. (generally speaking) David and Goliath ring any bells? Post SHTF, I'm killing myself, F giving someone else the chance. KIDDING! |
|
Stokes, If someone is moving and shooting and moving and shooting and the person they are shooting at is me/my family or an innocent I will worry about it after the life or death situation is over. I recall many gun writers recommending the Sig P210 for gust this kind of scenario. THISISME |
|
Well since you ask, I've been using www.pro-load.com 230gr +P's ammo for over a year now. They use the gold dot bullet and have by far the best quality control on the market. I've seen triton and cor-bon ammo have way more falures that pro load (never seen pro load have a falure to fire) The ammo is really clean burrning, no flash and both my Colt 199 and Glock 19 likes shooting it. |
|
My buddy shot the Aguila IQ ammo into a watermelon (scientific test, I know) with a piece of plywood behind it. He shot it, the watermelon went to mush, and the piece of ply caught the 3 segmented fragments just as the bullet is supposed to perform. When he shot it at just wood, the slug was recovered from deep within in one piece. This stuff is amazing. They call it IQ because when it hits something soft, it will mushroom and fragment, however, when it impacts something hard, it will stay in one piece and smash right thru it. |
Armory Sponsor