Armory Sponsor
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Truth in Accuracy Policy (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 12/13/2002 12:33:33 PM EDT
|
I've sure enjoyed the forums here; many of you guys impress me with your knowledge. But then there are the others.... Let's be honest about accuracy. I'm tired of hearing about everyone's "1/2 inch" rifles with iron sights and surplus ammo. First, let's define a 1 inch rifle. That means that it will shoot (at a measured 100 yards) 3 or 5 shots into a group, measured from center to center of the furthermost bullet holes, that is one inch. Every time! If you shoot 4 groups and one is a 3 inch group, one is a 2 inch group, one is a 4 inch group, and one is a one inch group, you do not have a one inch rifle. You have a 4 inch rifle. Because that's all you have demonstrated that the rifle can do each and every time you shoot it. I actually read a guy recently that said his AR15 would shoot into less than an inch with iron sights and surplus ammo. He's lying and we all know it. Can't be done. Oh sure, he may have shot one group that was sub-one inch, but not every time. It happens that I own a 1/4 inch rifle. It is an Accuracy International AE in .308, and it shoots into 1/4 inch every time, including the cold barrel shot. I'm sure that only a few of you appreciate just how rare that is for a factory rifle. A 2 inch rifle is nothing to be ashamed of. Thousands of deer are killed each year with 2 or 3 inch rifles. But let's just be honest. Please see that attached groups. The marks on the targets are exactly 1 inch apart. These 4 groups were shot a couple of weeks ago. No groups were culled. That is a 1/4 inch rifle. How about we all agree to tell the truth to each other about group size. I'm a lot more impressed with the truth than with, as General Schwarzkopf, calls it, "Bovine Scatology", or BS. |
|
Very nice and very true. About time some one brought this up. Repeatability is the name of the game. Old_Painless: What’s your sweet load for you 308 if you don’t mind me asking? OOPS I forgot. When testing I use a 10 shot group. It give’s me a better ideal of how the gun is going to shoot. I find 3 to little of data to get a good group picture. |
|
Glad to share. Use Federal Match once fired, trimmed to minimum, chamfered inside and out,neck sized only 3/4 way down neck thereafter, Federal Gold Metal Match Large Rifle Primers. Sierra .308 2200M, 168 gr HPBT or 2200 that I moly myself. 44.5 grs AA-2495 or 46.0 grs Varget. Loaded just short of the lands. Best I've found. No BS. LOL. Edited to add: "The loads shown are safe only in the guns for which they were developed. The author assumes no liability for accidents or injuries resulting from the use or misuse of this data." Right out of Guns and Ammo magazine. |
|
Thank you much ill have to try that load. Mine likes….. Federal Match, or a small lot of LC Match chamfered inside and out, I am sizing the neck fully, Federal 210 primers . Hornady .308 168gr HPBT For some reason it did not like the Sierra's? 42 gr of IMR-4895 Loaded to 2.8 length. I have a short throat. This is what mine likes the best so far. I have not used varget yet is it cleaner burning the than the IMR? Ill keep your disclaimer attached. "The loads shown are safe only in the guns for which they were developed. The author assumes on liability for accidents or injuries resulting from the use or misuse of this data." Damn it!! Now I have to dig out some of my targets to show off too!!!  |
|
Wait till Mousegun87 gets wind of this thread. We always laugh our asses off when people bullshit about how their MAK-90 shoots at 2 MOA with Wolf 7.62x39. Do they even know what MOA is, to be making that kind of statement? Mousegun shoots custom loads of heavy, 69-72 grain .223 through his Bushy DCM rifle and has come up with some pretty nice groups, maybe a little over 1 MOA at 200 yards with irons on his best day ever, with a totally accurized DCM gun and more shooting gear than I can fit in my car (he has a station wagon for all the spotting scopes and shooting jackets and fancy gloves, etc.) Honesty in accuracy! Fess up people! I can shoot 4 inches on a good day with my SAR-1. Maybe 3 inches with my pride and joy FAL. Maybe 3 inches with my 20 inch AR15. |
|
Then --BATMAN--, you have every right to be proud. Fine shooting. And of course I know you know this, but for those that don't, a 1 MOA group at 200 yards is a 2 inch group. Three hundred yards, a 1 MOA is 3 inches, etc. ( And before someone complains, I know that 1 inch is not "exactly" 1 MOA.) Amazing accuracy at any distance, if it is repeatable. Good shooting. |
|
Yeah and it only took me multiple cases of ammo to get that way. I'm on my 3rd case of ammo with the FAL, my AK has at least 2,500 through it, and my AR only half a case because I just got it (but it is much easier to shoot accurately than the FAL!). I love the "for sale" posts about guns that will shoot half an inch at 100 yards but the owner only put 50 rounds through it. Either the rifle was sighted in wonderfully at the factory and you shot it off a Ransom Rest or there is some bullshit going on. |
|
Ya, I used to think I was a poor shot compared to other people. Until I realized how full of shit some people are when bragging about how good they are with iron sights. After watching somebody who shoots a DCM gun in High Power competition (Mousegun again), and seeing how High Power rifle competitions are scored, I learned alot. If you can shoot 1" groups with iron sights "all day long" with your rifle (and I'm not talking off the bench here folks), then you need to be shooting High Power competition with the best of them. |
|
By the "one group proves the potential" theory of accuracy I just proved that the Remington Model 870 2.75 inch 12 gauge smoothbore shotgun I have (with 20 inch slug barrel and factory iron sights) is a 2 inch gun. I fired a three shot group today, offhand, with a semi-snug sling, at 100 yards in fading light that measured about 2 inches across. Ammo was Fiocchi 2.75 inch 12 guage 1 ounce rifled aeroslugs. Of course the next two shots hit several inches away with the same aiming point, so the other three were a fluke. Just about any gun will turn in an unbelievably small group from time to time, if you shoot it enough.....and the wind blows in the right direction in china. |
|
Old_Painless ... you nailed this issue cold. Your shotgroups are amazing, and rightfully so coming from a high grade bolt action rifle, shooting carefully crafted match grade ammunition, with a skilled shooter behind the trigger. Since you showed your groups, let me show mine ... ehm .. they are not even close to yours, but this is the best I have ever done so far given the limited tools and practice time I have.  I shot this in October during a regular 200 yard club match. Ladies and gentlemen, this is a center shot of an MR52 target called that simulates 600 yard shooting at a 200 yd range. In high power, we use this target during the last stage of the match: slow fire prone, single load, in 20 minutes. Of course, the only support allowed is the sling wrapped (tightly) around your upper support arm. For this particular target, I was shooting a Bushmaster factory DCM rifle with 1x8 barrel, 1/2x1/2 NM sight with hooded 0.46 aperture. The trigger is also a Bushmaster 2-stage NM set at 4.8 lbs. The barrel had about 1200 rounds into the match. My other equipments were heavy cordura shooting coat from Creedmoor sports, a black synthetic sling model 1907 from Turner Sling configured per USMC rifle team procedure, a Freeland shooting mit, a Freeland shooting mat, and a Burris Landmark spotting scope (a cheapy, but it is all I can afford for now). On the ammo: Lake City once fired brass, trimmed to minimum, Winchester primer, 24.1 gr of RL15 powder, with 80 grain of Sierra MatchKing bullet. The seating depth of the bullet is determined by the OAL gauge from Stoney Point. The OAL is measured specific to this barrel. The Stoney Point gauge gave me the OAL where the bullet starts to bite the lands of the rifling. This number is then moved back by 0.01" to allow safe expansion for the brass and other inconsistencies during the reloading process. In other words, the bullet will have exactly 0.01" of free-space before it bites the lands of the rifling. The 24.1 gr of RL15 powder was measured individually by me for every casing. Acceptable powder inaccuracy was set at 0.05 grain. This was chronographed at just over 2700 fps allowing the 80 gr SMK to still flies at supersonic speed at 600 yards. Now, onto the shooting. This was the first time I tried the 80 grain SMK load. OUt of the 20 rounds I shot, 10 hit the X-ring which is a circle of 1.75" radius (less than 1 MOA). Four rounds landed in the 10 ring but outside the X. The 10-ring is 3.75" diameter (less than 2 MOA). The one flyer was up high in the 8-ring which was completely my fault. So, do I claim that my rifle and I can shoot sub-MOA groups?? HELL NO !! ... I comfortably claim that I can shoot 2-3 MOA. The total score for this one is 193-10X ... a 96.5% which exceeds the upper limit of my current NRA classification (Expert is listed between 89%-94%). 96.5% is well into the Master's playground ... it scares me thinking about it that someday I will have to compete against those Master shooters ... Oh dear ... |
| In other words, Mousegun shoots a physically tighter group at 200 yards than I do at 100 yards, and it's still 2-3 MOA. Maybe I should revise my estimates of my own accuracy with my used upper and milsurp 55grain ammo. I probably don't even shoot as well as I posted above except on my very best days. |
|
Sorry for the slow responce, MouseGun87, but I was at the Houston Gun show at the Brown Center this morning. That's a fine target, especially with iron sights. You should be proud. I bet your handloads make all the difference. And maybe that's what got me on this thread. After all that hard work to get that fine group, doesn't it gripe you to read these clowns that say they shoot sub-minute groups with iron sights and surplus ammo? Just be honest guys. Tell the truth about your group sizes. It gives you something to shoot for (no pun intended.) |
|
Old_Painless, I cannot afford to be proud with those Master and High Master shooters shooting to my left and right. These guys are registering scores of 195 plus during the slow fire prone on a regular basis ... while it took me everything I got to shoot a mere 193. I guess experience makes all the difference, and some credits should go to the quality of their equipments too. You cannot expect a factory run-of-the-mill wilson barrel to compete against a cryoed custom made Krieger and win. So, it is amazing reading all these claims how people can do sub-MOA group with their chrome-lined standard barrel shooting surplus ammo. If these claims are indeed true, dont you think these people would outshoot David Tubb (10 times national champion in high power) when they are given a custom made top grade match rifle ??? Seeing how well shooters like John Holliger and other high master shoot really teaches me the true meaning of "humility". This is why I never claimed myself as an MOA shooter, because I have seen with my own eyes what a true MOA shooter is capable of doing, and I aint one ..... yet. Still working hard to be one. I have a feeling that not too many folks like to respond to this thread ..... the truth will set you free, but first it makes you damn angry ... |
|
Mousegun your post reminds me of a documentary on the History Channel I saw awhile ago, that showed the snipers at Camp Perry, how they make their own barrels to their own specs, they make their own bullets and brass from SCRATCH, each rifle is custom built for that particular sniper from the ground up in terms of the dimensions of the stock, etc. I hear stories about custom wildcat rounds based on cartridges like the .338 Lapua, and those guys practicing actually engaging targets at 1800 meters! It takes serious equipment to shoot seriously accurate... equipment such as, say, oh an Accuracy International? As a "Counter-strike" player I must confess to a childish desire to own an AI Artic Warfare Magnum... Old_Painless, how long have you had yours? |
|
Batman What you aren't catching here is that the equipment alone will not make you an NRA High Master or the best USMC sniper to ever live - it takes training and skill, talent, experience, plus equipment. That History Channel documentary has to be the biggest fantasy I ever heard on this board, or more likely, the folks making the documentary misreported custom rifle building, hand loading of ammunition, and tedious brass preparation. |
|
Hey Aero, no I'm not forgetting that it takes training and practice, see my above posts, but to shoot with the kind of accuracy we are talking about here does take serious equipment. But I totally agree that training makes about 90% of the difference, I was just speaking of the other 10%. Nobody at Camp Perry is shooting a Chinese SKS in a dragunov stock with a Simmons 3-9x on it. I'm not really sure what channel the documentary was on, but they had boxes full of barrel blanks, and a CNC barrel lathe thingy that would make the barrel whatever contour you wanted, whatever caliber and twist rate you wanted, even whether you wanted to "flute" the barrel or not... believe me their setup took some serious tax dollars. From what I understood these guys really do make their brass from scratch as well because they are always making weird new calibers, which if I had my own CNC lathe thingy and boxes full of barrel blanks, I might do too... talk about a reloaders dream! BTW how is St. Louis treating you? When are we gonna go shooting again? ;) |
|
O_P: While I definitely agree with your premise that a single small group does not make the rifle an X MOA rifle (X being the group size), if I read your post correctly, then the first time you shoot a 1/2" group with your AI rifle, it then stops becoming a 1/4" rifle and then becomes a 1/2" rifle, and if you have a bad day and shoot only 1" groups it is now a 1" rifle? To me the accuracy of a rifle has always been the Mode (most frequent) grouping it is capable of--a 1" group, a 2" group, a 2" group and a 3" group would be a 2" rifle until proven otherwise. I read an interesting explanation once about accuracy, and I have forgotten where: If your rifle is physically capable of shooting 1" at it's best--clamped into a rifle rest, etc., and you take a target and make two dots 1" apart to represent your target's maximum accuracy. Now draw a 1" circle around each of those shots. Theoretically, each of those shots could have fallen anywhere within those circles with some equal probability. If you look carefully at the circles, they intersect at some places, and are 2" apart at their maximum. So, a 1" rifle is capapble of shooting a 0" group at one end of the spectrum and a 2" group at the other--which is why I go with the most frequent group size. Anyhow, it is all academic--I can't shoot that well anyway .I should add a couple of things: 1. If you want LONG range accuracy, go over to biggerhammer.net and check out the Barrett forum, and look for posts by Triggerfifty. He is involved in the .408 Chey-Tac development, which shows remarkable promise. 2. You are very correct about the surplus ammo and off the rack barrel rifle being incapable of consistently shooting to the accuracy claims being made. However, freak occurances do happen--that SKS may really shoot a 1/4" group (once in about 10,000 groups if you go by the thing I mentioned above), but I'm not going to run out and buy an SKS and make it into a sniper rifle, either. AFARR |
|
Okay, AFARR, you caught me! What you are describing is known as the Bell Curve in statistics. We are indeed looking at the "average" group as the most meaningful definition of a rifle (and shooter's) accuracy. My problem is that many shooters do not throw out the biggest and smallest groups and honestly report their average accuracy. Instead, they report their smallest group as the average. You are correct in saying that if I shoot a 1/2 or even a 1 1/2 inch group with my rifle, it doesn't change the average accuracy. My shooting buddy says everyone throws out their largest group of the day as a fluke, but then keeps the smallest group of the day and hangs it on the refrigerator as an example of their rifle's accuracy. Just be honest and throw out the big ones and the small ones and report the average. And BATMAN, I also have shot the big .338 Laupua on Counterstrike. In fact, I am now playing Task Force Dagger and sniping with an AI AR in .308. I know, I know, it's not really real. But it sure is fun. I've had mine (the real one!) for about 6 months. I sure like it. |
|
Here is another measure of a rifle's accuracy - The amount of money you are willing to bet that you can shoot a group of a particular size. I know a man that has $100 for every 1/4 inch group you can shoot with an AR; he will probably bet on 5/16 inches. (By the way, he is a benchrest gunsmith and competitor that recently bought his own AR to check out the claims he hears in his shop.) |
I'm not following this part AFARR. If you are aming at a point and all the rounds hit such that not one hole is further than 1" from another, that is a 1" group, out of a 1" rifle, isn't it. |
|
Well, Halfcocked, I think AFARR, is trying to describe something known as Standard Deviation. It is a fairly complex mathematical concept that I won't try to recall from college 20 years ago! It is based on the Bell Curve that I mentioned. Its like the curve that teachers used to grade on, i.e., few As, more Bs, mostly Cs, less Ds, few Fs. And the average is Cs. The standard deviation is a measurement of the width of the curve. In shooting, it is the average size of all groups shot. I'm getting a headache from all this math. Just go shooting and tell the truth about groups. Thanks. |
| Yea, I had "sadistics" in college too and that is about all I remember about it. In AFARR's example though it seems he is referring to 2 different starts when he is about to start compiling data. I believe that each of those first 2 shots are 1/2" from the point of aim. |
|
Now I had never said my MAK90 could shoot 1 MOA @ 100 I realize for what the gun is just a fun blaster. now I am getting more serious with my ar15(Doing a rebarreling job) plus rescope my rem700BDL. there is other things i will be doing but It has been a long time since I've done any shooting(because of the hours iam working) so I will not be lying about how well my rifles will do. have not been able to do any reloading eather. |
|
ill be honest The scoped bolt action i have is much more capable a gun that i can pull out of it I've shot MOA about 80 percent of the time when i take it to the range. My friend (who has a knack for reading wind) nails .75 MOA or better consistently with my gun. Makes me feel sheepish |
|
OK, let see here .... This is called a probability distribution. The shape of the distribution can be modeled using several different probability density functions (pdf). The most common pdf is called the Gaussian function. Probability distribution that follows a Gaussian function is also known as "normal distribution" a.k.a. "bell-shaped curve". In a one dimensional data set, the Gaussian pdf can be expressed as: gaussian(x) = (exp(-0.5((x-m)/s)^2))/(s(2PI)^0.5) where x is a random variable, m is the mean of the random variables, and s is the variance of the random variables. However, normally people have a set of data and using the method called Maximum Likelohood Estimate, m and s can be estimated directly from the data set w/o having to compute the pdf above. In MLE, mean = sum(x)/n where sum(x) is the sum of all x in the data set and n is the number of data in the set. Then square of variance is also known as standard deviation which is defined as std_dev=sum((x-m)^2)/n Hence, the value of std_dev is just an average distance between each data point x in the data set from the mean (average). The smaller the std_dev then the tighter your distribution curve with the density around the mean shoots up even higher. If variance equals to 0, that means all of your x's have exactly the same value, hence m represents the rest of the x's without any error whatsoever. Larger std_dev indicates a wide spread of data which also reduces the degree of confidence of the mean to represent the entire data set. As in any probability distribution, the integral of the area beneath the distribution curve is equal to 1. Outliers can adversely affect the accuracy of m and std_dev. Hence, it is normal for people to remove the highest and lowest data point to prevent outliers from affecting the statistical calculation too much. Most chronographs have a built-in statistical calculator based on normal density distribution. The maximum spread (the distance between the two extreme points in the data set) and the std_dev gives a very good idea how much we can trust the mean m. Nothing like a good dose of Gaussian in a nice Sunday afternoon. oz |
Ya know, I was just going to say that. |
|
Mousegun, your math skills sure make me feel like the village idiot. If I ever get a chronograph for my handloads I'm going to have to ask you to teach me how to work the math with it. I feel so intellectually inferior... maybe I'll post up a thread about partial interest insurance in mortgage case law to help heal my bruised ego (wish me luck on my final tomorrow buddy!). |
|
BATMAN, hehehe ... sorry ... just wanted to clear things up about the ole Gaussian ... The "bell curve" was already mentioned in the thread, so I think a more complete explanation is in order so people who would like to generate the stats of their shotgroup can do it themselves. Hey, if you need a chronograph, I have one and you are welcome to use it. The stat calculator is already programmed in the chrono ... I plan to use it for developing my reloads for the M1. Good luck tomorrow! Beautiful day, but I am stucked here ... sucks ... |
Not bad, but that flyer at 7o'clock is uncalled for shooting that type of rifle as close as 1000 yards. 
|
|
I'm pretty confidenct in saying my PSS is a 1/2" gun. I can and do consistently shoot 1/2" 5 shot groups at 100 yards. I tend to average about 3/4-1 MOA at longer distances (300 and up) however. I know the rifle is more accurate than I am though. I have shot (I was ON) sub .5moa 5 shot groups at 100 and 200 yards. My smallest group ever was a 4 shot .38" group (center-to-center) at 100 yards. That is one raggged hole. This weekend I got a chance to head out to the "wilderness" and shoot at 500 yards. It was raining and about 40 degrees. I managed a 4.8" 4 shot group (from kneeling and using old barrel as a rest) and a 5.2" 5 shot group (from prone). Didn't get to post any more groups as I ran out of daylight (and walking 1000 yards just to look at your target--through mud, snow and driving rain--is tiring!). 500 yards is a LONG way out. It's incredible how much you notice heartbeat jump at that range--it will really improve your technique. All of this is with my pet load of: 44 grs. of Varget 168gr. HPBT Match Hornady Bullets Federal 210M primers Winchester Brass--Neck Sized Seated long but still (barely) fits in the magazine-- 2.815 rather than 2.800. Oh yeah, I shoot about 3MOA with Iron sights and Surplus ammo with my AR15. I can hit a 12inch steel circle at 400 yards with iron sights about 95% of the time. I'm not looking for pinpoint accuracy from my AR with iron sights. 3MOA is plenty good out to 400 yards. Hell, it's not effective out farther than that (except maybe on groundhogs). |
| I've seen an ad here on this site that says their carbine (can't remember who it is, since after seeing their accuracy claim, I immediately blew it off as BS) will shoot 1-inch groups at 400yds. Not 1-MOA, but 1-inch. At 400yds. I somehow find this rather difficult to believe. |
|
TheRedGoat, that sounds like a fine shot. I don't doubt that you made it. But surely you realize that making that shot says absolutely nothing about your rifle's ability to shoot MOA. That's the whole point of this thread....only by shooting at paper at a measured 100 yards and carefully measuring your groups can you know the rifle's (and your)capabilities. Anyway, nice shooting. |
I don't doubt it either.
Yeah, I knew what the thread was about. I just wantedto interject a little humor. Punching paper is fine, but eventually, the rubber has to meet the road. Your 1/4 MOA gun, sitting on a table, while you control your heartbeat, position, windspeed, humidity, lunar tables, sunspot map etc. has its place. Getting a little bit too concerened about 1/4" groups vs 1/2" groups, imho. Can you carry the gun all day? Can you make a snapshot on game? If they are running, can you calculate the lead, distance, hits over/under?
Thank you. FWIW, I have a Savage in .22-250 that is a one badboy paper puncher, but it never goes into tthe field. Impractical for anything but tearing one ragged hole at 100 yds. |
Minute of bowling pin. LOL Hey, at 50 yards, if I can hit the broadside of a bowling pin, offhand, iron sighted, it is good enough for 'Gubmint work. How you been Oz? |
|
TRG, been working on my dissertation proposal the whole weekend. We had beautiful weather this past weekend, but I am stucked here on my computer. A fellow AR15.com member called on Sunday and asked if I would go shooting with him (the range is just 10 minutes away from my place).... oohh ... temptation ... must stay and finish the proposal .... it was a cruel and unusual torture. Looks like you had a fun weekend. What do you do with the coyote? Did you take the A1 upper out looking for hogs? "minute of bowling pins" ... reminds me to get more bowling pins. The ones me and my buddies shot the last time were so shot out, they just refused to fall even after taking multiple solid hits from AR and AK ... I guess the wood inside must have lost its structural integrity, so the bullets just passed through ... we were calling it "skinnies bowling pins" .. or "bowling pins on drugs" ... |
So why didn't you talk more about the exploits of the Savage instead of something totally unrelated to the topic? 
|
Interesting formula, are there any modifiers for how long deer camp has been going on or how many drinks the (non-shooting at the time) story teller has had? I have known a few folk (Not me, never even considered it) that those targets seem to shrink for. Every year that fluke group keeps getting smaller. As far as my shots go a good shooting gun (AR15, K31, M1903A3, M39 Finn etc.) over open sights the best I can usually count on is 2.5" to 3" groups. My accurate guns, Ruger M77VTs, one in .223 the other in .308, both with 8-32X40 Tasco Mildots can keep my handloads in 1" almost always, .75" on a good day and a couple of times less than .5" That is from a bench, harris bipod, sand bag under the butt, ideal conditions. Oh, a couple of weeks back I shot a completele freak group. Five shots at 300yds, less than .75" using a cheap 4 power generic junk scope mounted on my leatherwood scope adapter on the previously mentioned AR. It was a freak incident. I do not claim this as normal nor do I ever expect it to happen again. And yes, I had a witness,.... heh heh heh, that was the best part. :) |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Truth in Accuracy Policy (Page 1 of 2)
Armory Sponsor