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Posted: 11/21/2002 5:53:49 PM EDT
Assuming the ban expires (which I think it will), LEO semi-auto marked receivers will be the hot ticket. Anybody agree?
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 6:05:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 6:25:42 PM EDT
When the AWB expires, there will be no restrictions on previous post ban assault weapons manufactured for military/LE/Government use. I imagine that there might be some collector's value for these weapons, and a stamped receiver may have a bit of a premium, although not too much, because there were probably tens of thousands made in the last 8 years, and eventually a fair number will re-enter circulation.
Link Posted: 11/22/2002 9:10:42 AM EDT
You will be able to get fully mil spec Colt AR15 lowers you can put all the evil features you want on. That would be SWEET!
Link Posted: 11/22/2002 11:16:35 AM EDT
A prediction---Sometime during the next Congress, a small provision will be made part of a larger, more comprehensive bill, probably something to do with homeland security. That little thwo or three sentence rider will extend the provisions of the act into a permanent ban.

If we're lucky, it won't enact any further restrictions. If we're not lucky, it will expand the restrictions. The bill will pass because the administration wants it, and if you later complain to your Congressman or Senator about "Why did you vote for that", you'll be told that the overriding issue of homeland security was too important not to pass the bill, and "Some of my colleagues insisted on that provision, and we needed their votes to get the bill passed".

I wish it were otherwise, but that's the way the system works folks. If you believe that the ban will go away, can I interest you in buying shares in the World Trade Center?
Link Posted: 11/22/2002 6:14:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/22/2002 8:12:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MouseBoy:
Assuming the ban expires (which I think it will)


Think again!
Link Posted: 11/22/2002 8:19:04 PM EDT
Do you ever think all this negative thought is a self fulfilling prophecy? Instead of sitting on your asses complaining how the AW will never go away, how about doing something about it.
Link Posted: 11/22/2002 8:30:22 PM EDT
Regarding LEO marked lower receivers:


Originally Posted By ILove2Shoot:
IF it expires.....I dont see why they would be the hot thing. You, as a civilian, still wont be legal to own them. You wont get any more features on them then you would have on a non leo weapon....




This issue was evaluated in depth a little while ago, and here it is:

There is NOTHING in the law that specifically prohibits you from owning a lower receiver that has the LEO/GOV'T marking on it, so long as it is not part of a rifle that is assembled as an assault weapon as defined by law.

It IS illegal for someone to purchase LEO marked post-ban assault rifles (as defined, with evil features) for the purpose of selling them as parts and components.

It is NOT illegal for you to arrange for the purchase of a POST-BAN CONFIGURED rifle with the LEO marking on the lower receiver, or for you to purchase a stripped (or complete) LEO marked lower receiver alone via a suitably licensed dealer.

In theory, if you could get Bushmaster, Olympic, Colt, ArmaLite, RRA, or anybody to provide your dealer with a stripped lower with LEO markings, or a post-ban configured rifle with the LEO markings on it, you could legally own it as a regular civilian. (Not counting state laws.)

If you doubt this, search the U.S. Code and the Code of Federal Regulations and try to find any supporting evidence to the contrary.

The limitations regarding LEO marked weapons are pretty specific. A dealer can't buy post-ban assault rifles for purpose of disassembly to resale, and of course, all post-ban AW's have the LEO marking. There is no restriction against buying the lower or a rifle that does NOT meet the definition of an assault rifle.

I spent DAYS researching this and I would stand behind my findings under any circumstances.

Ask our Industry Partners, and most of them are not so sure of the law that they'd agree (at least on the boards) that I'm right, but it's a novel angle that hasn't been seriously evaluated and put to the test.

Besides, Joe Average Cop would seize first and ask questions later. You'd almost certainly have to prove the situation in a court of law, though the law itself is clear enough.

CJ

Link Posted: 11/23/2002 5:51:07 AM EDT
I'll add one thing:

While it is not illegal to possess a postban LEO marked receiver that has been "neutered," and I believe there is even an ATF letter somewhere about former LEOs neutering personally-owned post-ban AWs into non-AW configuration would be legal for the former LEO to possess, there are specifically named AWs, particularly the AR-15, that are illegal to possess. I imagine that an AR-marked, LEO marked receiver in postban non-AW configuration WOULD be illegal, while a non AR marked, LEO marked receiver in postban non AW-configuration.

Damn this can get this confusing. I tried to explain this to a DA the other day when we were talking about a POS AK clone some drug dealer had modified into an AW. ATF didn't want to mess with it (don't blame them), and the DA had no idea what any of the AW laws meant. My explanations took a long, confusing time.
Link Posted: 11/23/2002 5:58:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By natez:
I'll add one thing:

ATF didn't want to mess with it (don't blame them),



Could you please go into further detail? They(ATF) didn't want to charge him with an illegal AW? Or they thought it was a legal postban?
Link Posted: 11/23/2002 6:21:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/23/2002 6:21:56 AM EDT by Bob243]
Can Joe Dealer purchase a complete post ban leo marked rifle, remove the bayo lug and silver solder a brake in place of the flash hider and have a rifle that could be sold to anyone? (without dated mags of course)
Link Posted: 11/23/2002 7:02:56 AM EDT
Something else to remember: Only some Colt rifles are marked as "AR-15", so technically, any other type isn't banned as such. All products of all companies besides Colt would be OK within the limits of what we've discussed already.

Colt's Sporters and Match Target rifles, or any other model that isn't specifically marked "AR-15", are OK within these limits, too.

I'm honestly not sure about the enforceability of the restriction status of a post-ban Colt lower marked as "AR-15". I think the courts would decide that the marking itself wouldn't constitute valid grounds for restriction, but you'd want to have the ruling in hand.

CJ

Link Posted: 11/23/2002 7:22:06 AM EDT
Sadly, the ban is here to stay. Afterall, who's gonna allow it to sunset anyway? Even Bush said he supported renewing it. We already lost the battle in 1994.
Link Posted: 11/23/2002 7:33:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/23/2002 7:36:34 AM EDT by M4_Aiming_at_U]

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
Sadly, the ban is here to stay. Afterall, who's gonna allow it to sunset anyway? Even Bush said he supported renewing it. We already lost the battle in 1994.



Bush also does not support abortion, does he do anything to help legislation in banning abortions?
In politics, you sometimes have to say what wants to be heard. America likes to hear politicians say things, even if it is not totally true. Look how Clinton says he didn't have sexual realtions with Monica under oath, he was caught lying about it later. But you still find a mast majority of idiots that love him to death. Even though he totally lied to their faces.

Just my $000,000.02
Link Posted: 11/23/2002 7:34:43 AM EDT
The ban is here to stay and will probably get worse.
Link Posted: 11/23/2002 7:39:31 AM EDT
Like I said before....people would rather piss and moan about the AW ban than actually get off their lazy asses and do something about it.
Link Posted: 11/23/2002 7:50:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
Sadly, the ban is here to stay. Afterall, who's gonna allow it to sunset anyway? Even Bush said he supported renewing it. We already lost the battle in 1994.



Wasn't it in '94, that a whole ton of incumbents got voted out of office. Something like twice as many as ever before? Strong gun control Reps/Senators, except in the "gun control States" were almost wiped out.

Maybe we just need that to be pointed out often, and loudly, to the AWB renewers.

The gun control measures enacted during that time, along with limited term ideas, were editorialized as the main reasons that occurred.
Link Posted: 11/23/2002 8:50:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/23/2002 2:33:06 PM EDT by cmjohnson]
Are you guys actually saying that WE, the gun owners of America, who have enough guns in our combined possession to arm every man, woman, and child in America with slightly MORE than one gun apiece, with as many as 140 million households that have at least one gun in them, (and certainly not less than 80 million) can't outshout and outmaneuver a very small pile of loudmouthed, socialist, donkey raping gun grabbers?


Get a grip, guys! The only reason why we suffer under ANY gun laws is because YOU and your ancestors sat around with your thumbs up your asses and didn't make your voices heard regarding your gun rights at critical times when a few liberal shitbags got loud at just the right time and nobody shouted them down!


I could only WISH that everybody who though enough of gun ownership to choose to own one would get off his lazy ass and write ONE STINKING LETTER (Even an email!) to each of his congresscritters, and get out and vote on the issue once every couple of years, which takes about as much time and effort as making a trip to the store for milk and eggs, and costs less.

With a guaranteed minimum of 80 million gun owners in this nation, we have the potential to easily be the largest political force in the land, by a wide margin. There weren't that many votes cast in the 2000 Presidential election, TOTAL!

Now review the situation:

The ban WILL sunset. It will literally require an act of Congress to extend or replace it. This would be NEW LEGISLATION, in effect.

Even the democrats acknowledge that gun control is a loser's issue now.

More people own guns legally in the United States now than EVER before. Many of them are relatively new to gun ownership, and a fair number of them bought them SINCE 9-11-01 because they FINALLY figured out that the police can't protect you all the time.

Americans are more conscious of their right to self defense now than ever before, and to be honest, they're pretty territorial about that right.

Congress has a long memory. Review the voting record that put the AW ban into effect, and print out the complete vote record of both the House and the Senate. Highlight the names of every congressman who voted for the ban. Now,
underline the highlighted names that ran for re-election afterwards. Now, circle the highlighted, underlined names of those who LOST their bids for re-election.

After doing that, it's pretty clear that gun owners got pretty pissed off and kicked a lot of congressmen out of office, and that certainly cost the Democrats the House.

The prominent anti-gun organizations are reported to be running low on money. Their funds have dried up because their cause isn't popular anymore, and they've also shifted to an ultra-radical viewpoint that alienates EVERYBODY.

Membership (and political clout) in the pro-gun organizations is increasing, and has been doing so steadily for several years.

Gun owners are generally more situationally aware now than they've been for many years. On average, we know what's going on.

The Republicans, who now control both houses of Congress, know damned well that gun owners are likely to vote on the gun issue. And many of them held on to (or obtained) their seats by a small enough margin that the gun vote alone was sufficient to make the difference between winning and losing.

The subject of the AW ban is a political hot potato. Any congressman who tries to introduce a bill to replace or extend it is committing political suicide unless he lives in hell...also known as California. No responsible congressman wants to be the one to introduce such a bill, and they'd like the whole issue (which has cost them many seats in the past) would just go away.

The beauty of it is that it WILL go away and needs no action taken to do so. Nobody has to introduce a bill to repeal the ban, which would alienate the anti's. They can even say that they discussed extending the ban, but it got stalled in discussions and they didn't get back to it.

A new ban (or an extension) would have to pass BOTH houses of congress separately. Given the current political climate, and given that the ban will expire so close to the 2004 election, I judge it HIGHLY UNLIKELY that any such legislation will make it through even ONE house of Congress, to say nothing of the chances of it making it through BOTH Houses.

No, the ban will pass into history and that's that.

BUT...your help is required. You can't sit on your ass and let things play out. We have to turn on the heat, and keep it on. Let your congressmen know that the ban will expire on its own and that's good, but any attempt to resurrect it will result in assured unemployment for the congressman at the next election.

Turn up the heat! It's not just MY job, it's YOURS, too! I'll be doing it too, but I can't do it for you and I can't do it alone!

If the 2000 elections accomplished anything, it was to show that every individual vote is indeed important.

If you don't do your part, don't whine if the ban is replaced. That right is reserved strictly to those who give enough of a shit about the issue to do something about it.

If you don't vote, you don't matter.

CJ

Link Posted: 11/23/2002 9:39:41 AM EDT
cmjohnson,

My hat is off to you. Very well said. I get letters from my senators and rep every few weeks....I am continuously sending reminders to them of how they are screwing up, and also once in a while letting them know they did a good job...not often.
Link Posted: 11/23/2002 2:44:09 PM EDT
DigDug...

Thanks. The occasional pat on the back makes the job of being a loudmouth a little easier!


Idea coming on...

Does anyone know how to go about getting postage paid permits for the issuance of large numbers of postage paid postcards?

I'm thinking that it would perhaps be a great idea to arrange to have huge numbers of postcards made up which are pre-paid and pre-addressed to the Senators and Representatives in a given area, which carry a pro-gun, anti-AW ban message, and drop them off in gun stores and perhaps even arrange to have them bundled with every box of ammunition or any other firerarms related supplies.

The idea's simple: Buy a box of bullets, and the postcard is included, already filled out and addressed to your congresscritters. All you'd have to do is fill in YOUR address info and drop the pre-paid card into any mailbox.

When congressmen are getting literally hundreds or even thousands of such cards each and every day, well, it's something worth noting.


Like it?

Anyone know how about arranging for prepaid postcards?


Should I start another thread about this?


CJ

Link Posted: 11/23/2002 6:03:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DigDug:
Do you ever think all this negative thought is a self fulfilling prophecy? Instead of sitting on your asses complaining how the AW will never go away, how about doing something about it.



why do you assume that someone who is pessamistic is taking no action to combat the feared legislation?
Link Posted: 11/23/2002 7:54:25 PM EDT
1_153_370_371_407,

I assume nothing. If someone is complaining, they should be writing letters, emailing and supporting what they complain about.
Link Posted: 11/23/2002 8:50:21 PM EDT
I took this:


Originally Posted By DigDug:
Instead of sitting on your asses complaining how the AW will never go away, how about doing something about it.



as you assuming that those who are complaining are doing nothing to prevent a replacement ban, which is not true in all cases.

I'll write letters, give money to the NRA, even vote republican, i just don't think it's going to do much good. Do you really think that any of the career boys give two shits about your rights? They care about retaining and gaining power, and if doing that happens to involve attracting 2nd amendment supporters by voting pro-gun, then yippie for us, but I don't think for one minute that they (republicans) won't sell us down the river in a heartbeat if it looks like doing so will clinch an election for them.
Link Posted: 11/23/2002 9:14:33 PM EDT

Do you really think that any of the career boys give two shits about your rights? They care about retaining and gaining power,



PRECISELY! All that is necessary to keep them on an even keel is to let them know that their careers will end at the next election if they piss off all the gun owners who vote for their gun rights! Of course, this requires that a significant number of gun owners actually DO vote for their gun rights.




and if doing that happens to involve attracting 2nd amendment supporters by voting pro-gun, then yippie for us, but I don't think for one minute that they (republicans) won't sell us down the river in a heartbeat if it looks like doing so will clinch an election for them.



So it's up to US to make sure that they don't get that impression, and instead become quite convinced that it is critical to their own best interests to abide by the wishes of the powerful gun lobby and even more powerful gun owner's direct voting powers!

Clearly you have the ability to type and compose a thought in a clear and highly readable manner. Rather than waste your time being all gloomy and skeptical about the issue, apply those skills to write a couple of letters to your congress critters, OK?

Every vote counts. After the 2000 election, NOBODY should be questioning THAT anymore!
The 2002 elections backed that up even MORE.

So get busy. You have letters to write, and so do I and the rest of us. We have to take the power that is available to us, free for the taking. It works through each active voter/activist.

CJ



Link Posted: 11/23/2002 9:35:13 PM EDT
Well said, CMJ.

The defeatist talk annoys me.

Yes, the gun banners will try very hard to renew the AW ban. And we will fight them very hard, and we will win. It will be bloody, but we will prevail.

If your rep is a Democrat, please be sure to ask him if the Democrats want to have any prayer of regaining Congress. If so, they want to work against the AW ban.
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 5:52:14 AM EDT
WTF write your congressman and Senators and ask them why they voted for it??????
WRITE THEM NOW AND TELL THEM THEY HAD BETTER NOT VOTE FOR IT, you guys had better get on the ball and start telling them you want it to sunset, no fuckin wonder we have this law...
Bluemax
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 2:58:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MouseBoy:
Assuming the ban expires (which I think it will), LEO semi-auto marked receivers will be the hot ticket. Anybody agree?


Yes they will have a neat factor, but the most collectible I think would be the Colt LEO models that dont say LEO/EXPORT.
GG
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 4:17:09 PM EDT
I also have a feeling that HOMELAND SeCURITY is going to come into play here. If they find a way of sneaking it in and I am sure they are going to. You know that HOMELAND SECURITY is going to be a big sticking point even if we protest the Ban being part of it. ALso think if we thought about it for sure the ANTI's also have. They are most likely feeding the congress with these ideas already.
Link Posted: 11/25/2002 5:28:44 PM EDT
Just keep the heat on, guys. All the anti's have on their side is lies and hysteria, while we have truth, data, and a means for personal security, there when you need it. We can and we will exert sufficient influence to ensure that the ban is not replaced.

The only way we can lose is by not fighting. If we fight to ensure that the ban really goes away, we will win.

But we don't have the option of NOT fighting.

CJ
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