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Posted: 11/12/2002 7:59:35 PM EDT
I'm in the market for a .223 & the only two
options in my price range are pot-luck AR-15's
(refurbs listed in "good" condition - no brand
specs) and "like new" and "new" Russian AKS-47's
with chromed barrels. I have a buddy who is a
dealer, and this is all catalog sales (he has
yet to verify the quality, and I don't want to
get caught up in a back & forth with his suppliers). I've heard the stories about GI's
in Vietnam having a preference for captured
AK's due to the supposed fact that you can
throw it in the mud, shake it off & keep on shooting. Which is more reliable under less
than ideal conditions (or are the stories just
myth)? Does the DCM have good deals? I have yet to get onto the site due to congestion.
The boss (wife) has approved the transaction
(LOL) so I want to move fast. Thanks.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 8:05:45 PM EDT
The AR is a much better gun, BUT the Ak will take more of a beating.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 8:08:30 PM EDT
The first M-16's got a bad rap because of the slow burning powder that was used in the first 5.56mm cartridges. The burning powder would foul up the gas tube and render the gun useless. Today, the M4/M16 is arguably the best military rifle in existence. I'd be wary of any "pot-luck" firearms UNLESS they came with some sort of warrantee.

The AK is an excellent and reliable design, but I doubt some of the stories I've heard. It's also uncomfortable to shoot and none too accurate.

IMHO, a properly maintained AR will outshoot an AK. Also, it is much easier to mount goodies like optics, flashlights, etc on an AR.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 9:01:14 PM EDT
Give us your budget and we'll give you the best options with pros and cons and you make the decision as to what best meets your needs.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 11:55:20 AM EDT
I agree with the above posts. I'm an AR admirer (and defender) to the point of fanaticism, IF we are talking about quality ARs. If you have something that was thrown together by who knows who, using who knows what parts, I'd be leery of it. AKs might be cheap stamped metal POS rifles, but they are designed to be built by retarded monkeys and still work (mostly). HRanger is right, what is your budget? As much as I would like some fellow shooter get an AR, if it's going to be one that sours him towards ARs, better get some decent AK
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 2:04:42 PM EDT
We need a price limit of the gun and a price limit of the accessories for the gun.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 2:58:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2002 3:02:04 PM EDT by ED_P]
If you are on a budget, an SAR-1 (Romanian AK) is a great deal for under $300, will shoot EVERY time you pull the trigger, you can shoot inexpensive Wolf 7.62x39 ammo, and you can get new, very sturdy, reliable 30 round mags for $10 a piece.

It's not going to have the accuracy of an AR, but can hit a volleyball sized target at 100 yards, and it will work every time. The sights are kind of big for hitting stuff over 100 yards, as the front sight post will obscure them.

I have an SAR-1, and a Bushmaster. Though the Bushmaster would be my first gun to grab to defend my life, it (and all AR's) are very susceptible to magazines and ammo that aren't quite upto spec.

I had to really learn what it liked in terms of magazines, and ammo (doesn't like PMC), before I could trust my life to it. And the reliability issues are just a bad mag or lot of ammo away, wheras the AK is much more easy going.

Though the AR is my number one gun, if I had to defend my life within a house, I'd grab an AK before an AR. Once a target was over 50 yards a away, the AR starts to be the better choice, IMO.

You won't be dissapointed with an SAR-1, they look like crap, with crude milling marks all over them, and sometimes slightly off center front sights, but function without a hiccup.


Link Posted: 11/13/2002 3:00:25 PM EDT
One more thing, the 7.62x39 AK's function well, but the ones chambered for 5.56 calibre have the same magazine susceptibility problems as AR's, due to the smaller rim size. Stick to the calibre's (7.62x39, or the new 5.45 Russian, with a bigger rim than the US 5.56).
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 3:07:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
We need a price limit of the gun and a price limit of the accessories for the gun.



DevL said it best. Give us your price range, requirements, and we'll put together 1,692.4 different assemblies for you!



You know what...I think it's time I paid my dues and become a TeamAR15.com member...

hmmm
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 3:17:27 PM EDT
You might also consider the caliber differences and what use you would have for the rifle. The AK-47 fires a .30 caliber slug at lower velocity while the AR fires a .22 caliber slug at relatively high velocity. The trajectory for an AR is much flatter making long shots a bit easier.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 3:58:43 PM EDT
I would say that the 300 sar1 (make sure it is a real sar not a wasr10 converted to double stack) is well worth the money. cheap and fun to shoot. only problem you might have is find a good scope mount (30 or so and higher) and trigger slap. you can have fun redoing the wood stock. great weekend project. but that is about it on the ak.

The ar s a different story. A little more exspensive, but parts are cheap and plentyful. 30rnd used gi mag is about 10bucks. very easy to fix and upgrade to a super sweet rifle. also, you can get uppers through the mail to make other variations of the ar from m4 to varmit. the choice is yours. if you like plinking and blasting and are not looking to upgrade then get the ak. If you want a more versatile rifle with plenty of parts and the ability to switch out uppers then go for the ar. I personally have both. the ar is my fav. the ak i did too good of a job refinishing the stock. lol sweet looker and a pretty good shooter.

later
lojack
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 7:32:38 PM EDT
buy an AK first..after a while you"ll start to get curious about an AR..then you'll buy an AR and NEVER look back..i suppose most AR owners were weaned on AK"s and sks's...HOWEVER...any gun beats no gun.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 8:28:37 PM EDT
As touched on above, buying an AK in any caliber other than 7.62x39 would be foolish as the gun was designed for this round and the mags and ammo are plentiful and cheap. Neither firearm is a substitute for the other and they both have their strenghs and weaknesses. If you want to go with the .223 round get a quality AR-15.
Link Posted: 11/13/2002 9:06:55 PM EDT
So far so good. Thanks for the input! For a little background - I am a current SKS owner (I've been ready for weaning for some time now). I have always been a devout fan of .30 calibers - that's all I hunt with. The AKS or AR will be dual purpose - both a "toy" and as close to a serious defensive weapon as possible (as close as we civilians can get w/out any licensing requirements). As for the multi-configuration angle the AR is solidly pulling ahead. My price range (for my whole list) may seem unrealistic thanks to my friend the dealer. I only pay 10% over his cost (plus shipping). My "threshold of pain" is in the area of $800. As for specs I am looking for 16" barrel, flash suppressor, and several (no less than 6/8 30 round mags. I'd like a pre-ban with a telescopic stock, but I know I have to be realistic. My biggest problem is that name brands don't come up in the dealer catalog until you get up over $1000. As I said originally the lower priced guns ($600 & up) say "good condition" - my friend occasionally gets "choice" guns for an extra $10 or more, (someone will sort through a few & pick the best) but the outcome still depends on what's in stock at the time. I appreciate the help, I just need to factor dealer transfer & shipping into this mix. BTW, I managed to get into CMP (the site was down from the storms) - no help. The club I belong to has a High Power team that can get CMP stuff, but the only guns available are higher priced target rifles.

Thanks again to all.
Link Posted: 11/14/2002 12:00:21 AM EDT
$800? Get a RRA postban 16" used USGI mags and M193 ammo. You will be short on mags though.

OR

Get a SAR 3 5.56mm with RedStar Arms trigger, Kvar polymer stock set, AK74 style brake and Weiger Steel Mags (100% reliable with those mags) Use M193 ammo. This rifle will shoot 2MOA
Link Posted: 11/14/2002 1:58:46 AM EDT
I bought a bushmaster 20 inch heavy barel A2 style new in box with 3 extra 10 round mags for $800 last year. I love my bushmaster and besides my rem 1100 are my only rifles I own or need.
Link Posted: 11/14/2002 4:00:39 AM EDT
a note about ak and dirt, there was a guy over at ak47.net board who actually buried his ak in the sand, dug it up, put a mag in and fire it without problems.
Link Posted: 11/14/2002 4:52:01 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/14/2002 4:59:12 AM EDT
My advice is to get into the AR.

It may seem like a big economic move right now, but you will soon be so addicted that laying out hundreds won't bother you in the least.

This isn't going to be your "only" AR. It is just your "first" AR.

Stay away from the light. Move to the black rifle....

It will occupy your thoughts in your waking hours and your dreams at night...
Link Posted: 11/14/2002 8:28:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Guntoting_Spartan:
a note about ak and dirt, there was a guy over at ak47.net board who actually buried his ak in the sand, dug it up, put a mag in and fire it without problems.



And there was another guy on AR15.com who met a guy who just bought his first SAR1 and while trying to tell the AR guy how "dirt proof" his SAR1 was he popped off the reciever cover and scooped up a handful of dirt and poured it into the reciever, filling it, and tried to fire it.

The gun jammed and bent the gas piston and reciever. The rifle was ruined. Moral of the story? ALL guns can and will malfunction if they are not taken care of.
Link Posted: 11/14/2002 6:33:36 PM EDT
Yep, I'm already spending way too much time thinking about it...
Link Posted: 11/14/2002 6:39:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2002 6:49:21 PM EDT by hawk06]
Found out today that a friend of mine just bought an AR from our mutual dealer friend - turns out the low end rifles are factory new Hess, cost is around $575. Any opinions on Hess? I've gotta get in touch w/my other friend & see if he's been to the range yet...

Can someone fill me in on the nomeclature? I wouldn't know an A1 from an A2 etc...

I would like to be able to swap barrels (short for tactical, long for high power - does anyone know whether foreign makes are accepted weapons in high power? So far all I can get from friends is that it has to be a U.S. weapon - they keep trying to talk me into $1500 accurized Garands (some friends, huh?).
Link Posted: 11/14/2002 6:55:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2002 7:00:26 PM EDT by USMC_LB]
Dont even touch that piece of Hesse !!!!!!!!!

Move along, nothing to see here, go back to your homes...

Seriously, if you are wanting a good AR at a affordable price you should look no further than Bushmaster.

A friend of mine paid cash at the local gunshop and got it for a little over $800. Definitely a nice rifle.

You will notice a BIG difference if you get the Bushy and compare it to your friend's Hesse. Then sometime soon after that your friend will be wanting a Bushy too....

You have suckled on the teat of 7.62 for long enough it is time to come to a 5.56 AR

Here is what he got and you would love it...
www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/pcwa3s20.asp
Link Posted: 11/14/2002 7:06:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2002 7:07:46 PM EDT by hawk06]
The link didn't pan out & I got sent to Bushmaster's main page - do you know what model your friend bought? From all of the reading I've done here I've gathered that the preferred brands are the Bushy, Armalite & Rock River (Colt if you can afford it). Other names I heard about are Olympic, DPMS & Wilson (know lots of people with Wilson pistols & parts). Any comment?

BTW - I still like the 7.62 - in fact I like all the calibers I own...
Link Posted: 11/14/2002 7:09:04 PM EDT
If you can spend $800, hit the next gunshow. You should be able to pick up a Bushmaster, DPMS, or Olympic AR with no problem.

Alternatively, at the last show in my area, Sherlunk had 20" AR kits for $425. These come with your choice of upper and all parts you need to assemble a complete AR, except the lower receiver. Three rows up, a guy was selling Oly stripped receivers for $99. That would be a complete 20" AR for $524 + tax. You would have to assemble the lower, but you can buy several battlepacks and a lot of used 30's with the money you have left over....

Link Posted: 11/14/2002 9:10:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Guntoting_Spartan:
a note about ak and dirt, there was a guy over at ak47.net board who actually buried his ak in the sand, dug it up, put a mag in and fire it without problems.



There was another story about dumbass which removed the cover of his AK, sprinkled a handful of sand into the works, replaced the cover, shook well, and fired the gun.

The gun discharged, but the bolt got stock about halfway through it's cycle.
Link Posted: 11/14/2002 9:37:00 PM EDT
You know,the hole AR vs. AK thing really just comes down to what you want.

What feels better in your hands?
What looks the best to you?
What gun best fits my budget?

In the end it's really up to you just so long as you know that if your don't pick the AR your worng.
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