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Posted: 9/21/2002 6:58:45 PM EDT
Ok, when I bought my AR, the dealer said it was chrome lined, but it's not. I didn't bother with a break in procedure, now every time I go shooting the copper fouling is horrible and I have to spend hours cleaning copper out of the bore after shooting 100 rounds or less.

Is there anything I can do to keep this from collecting so much copper?
Link Posted: 9/21/2002 7:35:19 PM EDT
You might want to look at the NECO fire lapping kit. www.neconos.com/details2.htm

Shooting moly coated bullets would also help, but it would be awfully expensive!
Link Posted: 9/22/2002 1:08:35 PM EDT
Thanks 199, I might try the fire lapping thing.
Link Posted: 9/22/2002 2:06:21 PM EDT
Break-in is a myth. You clean your barrel so much you need to replace it sooner than you normally would.
Link Posted: 9/23/2002 5:47:30 AM EDT
What are you using to remove copper fouling? If you use Sweet's 7.62 you'll save yourself some time, plus it seems to cut down on the barrel's tendency to foul in the future.

You might also try some JB bore paste to smooth the bore out after you have it clean. A one-time treatment won't hurt anything, but I wouldn't recommend using it often.
Link Posted: 9/23/2002 6:01:34 AM EDT
7, wtf... How about something to back that one up with. That statement is contrary to the practice of EVERY bench shooter, every manufacturer and what I'd guess every custom builder would recommend.
Link Posted: 9/23/2002 6:16:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sleepy717:
7, wtf... How about something to back that one up with. That statement is contrary to the practice of EVERY bench shooter, every manufacturer and what I'd guess every custom builder would recommend.



Not EVERY one.

IIRC, Gale McMillan was not a proponent of barrel break in and stated that if barrels needed break in that premium barrel makers would offer barrels that were already broken in.

Here are some of his thoughts on the topic:


As a barrel maker I have looked in thousands of new and used barrels
with a bore scope and I will tell you that if every one followed the
prescribed break in method A very large number would do more harm than
help. The reason you hear of the help in accuracy is because if you
chamber barrel with a reamer that has a dull throater instead of cutting
clean sharp rifling it smears a burr up on the down wind side of the
rifling. It takes from 1 to 2 hundred rounds to burn this bur out and
the rifle to settle down and shoot its best. Any one who chambers rifle
barrels has tolerances on how dull to let the reamer get and factories
let them go longer than any competent smithe would. Another tidbit to
consider, Take a 300Win Mag. that has a life expectancy of 1000 rounds.
Use 10% of it up with your break in procedure for ever 10 barrels the
barrel maker makes he has to make one more just to take care of the
break in. no wonder barrel makers like to see this. Now when you flame
me on this please include what you think is happening to the inside of
your barrel during the break in that is helping you.




More thoughts at this link

yarchive.net/gun/barrel/break_in.html
Link Posted: 9/23/2002 6:41:24 AM EDT
ArmaLite triple laps thier (T) SS barrels and still recommends a break-in procedure.

That's good enough, for me. I do it to all my new rifles/barrels, now.

Even my rimfires.
Link Posted: 9/23/2002 8:19:03 AM EDT
In constrast to the quote from Gale McMillan that Maynard posted, here is a quote from Dan Lilja on the same topic. It also might explain the problems that Glock31 is having with copper fouling.



It is important to break-in a barrel though. The jacket material must be removed after every shot during the initial few rounds. If this isn't done the areas of the barrel that fouled will tend to pick up more fouling and it will build on itself. It is important to get a layer of powder fouling on top of the lands & grooves. This hard deposit will prevent the copper from stripping off the bullets. However, if the internal finish of the barrel is too rough the barrel will never be completely broken-in and fouling will always be a problem. Some barrels can't be broken-in.

A similar phenomonon can exist if the shooter uses an abrasive-type cleaner too often. The abrasives are very effective at removing all traces of both powder and jacket fouling. I mentioned that a barrel can be too smooth. The abrasives can get a barrel too clean as well and in effect the shooter is rebreaking-in the barrel again every time he cleans. This can end up in the dog-chasing-his-tail scenario. The shooter thinks the barrel is a fouler, as evidenced by the copper accumulations in the barrel. He works hard at removing the copper, resorting to using an abrasive cleaner. But when he does he removes the desirable layer of carbon fouling left by the powder and exposes fresh steel ready to grab some more copper off the bullet on the next shot. The cycle repeats itself. Like the dog the best way out is to go lay down and take a nap.



www.riflebarrels.com/barrelfouling.htm

Link Posted: 9/23/2002 9:18:48 AM EDT
Maynard...I stand corrected. But I think that most of can agree, break-in of a barrel is generally accepted as the best way to promote the best possible performance of a given barrel. I have broken in using Lilja's method every rifle I own with one exception, my Rem 700 .270. This rifle is a copper f'n pig. After five shots, I clean with either Shooters Choice or Butch's Bore Shine on a Dewy rod, and it looks like grape jelly coming out on the patch. I have even tried re-lapping the bore and breaking it in over again. No luck. This is fast becoming my next candidate for a new tube. I digress...
Link Posted: 9/23/2002 3:21:37 PM EDT
Maynard, thanks for completing what I stated. I knew it was McMillan but I couldn't remember where the info was posted.

Link Posted: 9/23/2002 6:47:47 PM EDT
This is what I did with my Varminter. I was told by some benchrest shooters that they get Breakfree Bore Cleaner and JB Bore Paste. Clean it out with the Bore Cleaner, Then also use Shooters choice Brass cleaner.
After it is clean take the JB Paste and put it on a patch run it through 5 times. Change patch and run it through with paste another 5 times. Then clean it again with Bore cleaner and Brass cleaner.
After it is clean spend the money for 100 molly coated Black Hills ammo. Now start over 1 shot clean bore then Paste 5 times. Clean again and oil. Shoot another round and do this 10 times.

Then shoot 5 rounds. clean and shoot 5 again for 20 rounds with cleaning. Then 10 rounds clean for 20 rounds until your out. I am told that this should clean the barrel and you could use FMJ after with easy clean up. I do not shoot more than 20 rounds at a time out my varminter. It cleans up real fast. After that you don't have to use the JB paste except maybe every 1000 rounds.
Understand this is not my own operation for this I got it from some guys I trust. I also read the Instructions that came with my Varminter upper. It also wasn't that far off with same directions.
Link Posted: 9/23/2002 8:26:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By edpmedic:
This is what I did with my Varminter. I was told by some benchrest shooters that they get Breakfree Bore Cleaner and JB Bore Paste. Clean it out with the Bore Cleaner, Then also use Shooters choice Brass cleaner.
After it is clean take the JB Paste and put it on a patch run it through 5 times. Change patch and run it through with paste another 5 times. Then clean it again with Bore cleaner and Brass cleaner.
After it is clean spend the money for 100 molly coated Black Hills ammo. Now start over 1 shot clean bore then Paste 5 times. Clean again and oil. Shoot another round and do this 10 times.

Then shoot 5 rounds. clean and shoot 5 again for 20 rounds with cleaning. Then 10 rounds clean for 20 rounds until your out. I am told that this should clean the barrel and you could use FMJ after with easy clean up. I do not shoot more than 20 rounds at a time out my varminter. It cleans up real fast. After that you don't have to use the JB paste except maybe every 1000 rounds.
Understand this is not my own operation for this I got it from some guys I trust. I also read the Instructions that came with my Varminter upper. It also wasn't that far off with same directions.



Isn't that bore paste an abrasive? Personally I think its a scam to get us to wear out our barrels quicker. I did it on one rifle and noticed no difference from before i broke it in to a few hundred rounds after. and for those of you who state the rifle is really clean when you fire it after only 20 shots (not singling you out Marc) its because you only fired 20 shots. not much debris is produced by 20 rounds unless they are blanks.
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 7:28:39 AM EDT
Just a thought:

In the "Industry Forum", ArmaLite stated that the Army Shooting teams replace their "Match Grade" barrels every 2500 - 3500 rnds. That barrel would still be good enough for the average guy, like me, for at least a few thousand more rounds.

The ArmaLite "break-in" procedure equals 100 rnds.

"They" want me to wear out my barrel faster by cleaning it more during that break-in??

Oh, PUULEEZE!!

Link Posted: 9/25/2002 7:54:20 AM EDT
True, but remember that the "match grade barrels" are almost certainly stainless steel, which on a competition rifle probably won't go more that 4-5000 rounds before it starts getting sloppy.

Bore paste is an abrasive, but I believe it's a clay-based abrasive that shouldn't wear out the barrel any significant amount.

FWIW, I just started using Butch's Bore Shine and it seems to do a real good job of getting the copper out of my AR barrel, which I "broke in" with the Tubbs Final Finish fire-lapping system.
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 8:14:55 AM EDT
Hmmmmm,

All my rifles have SS barrels.

No, wait... EXCEPT for the Marlin 30/30. Gee, when was the last time I shot that sucker! LOL!!
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