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Posted: 9/21/2002 7:02:07 AM EDT
I've got a buddy doing some research on desert big-horn sheep in New Mexico. He has to inspect sheep kills to see how many are getting eaten by lions. Anyway, he has a high chance of encounter. He wants an automatic, and the
G-20 was all I could come up with.

Any body out west have any experience or input on this?
Link Posted: 9/21/2002 7:56:53 AM EDT
from what I hear those mountain lions go down pretty easy so a glock 10mm should be plenty of power.
Link Posted: 9/21/2002 8:32:33 AM EDT
Do you think a .40 s&w would do the job then?
Link Posted: 9/21/2002 8:43:35 AM EDT
Hell , you could kill a lion with a 380 !

They arn't that big .
Know a guy killed one at 45 yards using a 20 GA. loaded with birdshot while quail hunting not 30 miles north of downtown Phoenix . He has a nice rug now .
Link Posted: 9/21/2002 8:55:57 AM EDT
Having spent a lot of time on a ranch in northern Arizona... I would offer this.

Cougar are dangerous game, in that they can and will hurt a man -- I also argue that they do not "go down easy"... When I rode in that area, I normally carried a .44Mag revolver and a .444 Marlin lever action... If I had to do it again today, it would be a Marlin 450 Guide Gun.

Given that the 10mm is about on par with a 357 magnum, and I have seen more than one lion and pig survive a centered shot from the 357 (only to be very angry by it)... I would not feel all warm and fuzzy with a 10mm. My personal choice for a "wilderness" handgun is a Wesson 445 Max with a 4" comped barrel.

BTW: I would'nt carry a glock in any caliber in a hostile environment ;)
Link Posted: 9/21/2002 9:09:03 AM EDT
ummmm... there is a big difference between the lion that wonder around the low deserts near Phoenix (we call them Puma) and the Cougar or Lions that one will find in the mountains of NM, CO or Northern AZ.

The average male "mountain" lion will run about 150 lbs and better than 6 feet long, the record cat is well over 200 lbs and 8 feet long.

Link Posted: 9/21/2002 9:23:22 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/21/2002 10:05:30 AM EDT
He is pretty insistent on a auto, and I couldn't talk him in to a short barrel revolver, so I guess 10mm it is. Anybody know of any 10mm hunting rounds besides cor-bon. I am thinking any hollowpoint since they are relatively thin skinned(?)

BTW Gunzilla, what's wrong with a Glock in rough terrain.
Link Posted: 9/21/2002 10:50:31 AM EDT
Hey, make no mistake... the 10mm is a very worthy round and certainly better than nothing at all! I would not hesitate to use the 10 at all, just that if I had my druthers -- being put near a lion's fresh kill and knowing that they may not hunt in packs, but they sure do eat in packs -- I would opt for the most serious weapon I could legaly and realistically carry.

As for the glock pistol itself, I just don't care much for them is all... I remember when they first came out and were all the rage, before we started seeing what sort of service life they have.

If I were to pick an autoloader to pack around in the south side of the Rockies (other than a LAR!) it would be a 1911 in .400 Corbon...
Link Posted: 9/21/2002 11:22:04 AM EDT
Thanks for all of your input Gunzilla. Sounds like you know your lions. If I come up with any other questions I'll look you up.

Link Posted: 9/21/2002 11:37:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/21/2002 11:38:00 AM EDT by Minuteman419]
I'm pretty sure you can still get a 6 inch drop in barrel for the Glock 20, 10mm. As for ammo, Hornady offers a Full Power load with the 180 gr. XTP- HP bullet in it. Another full load would be the Winchester 175 gr. Silvertip load #X10MMSTHP and they "say" it runs about 1280 fps. I'd personally rather have a Jacketed Soft Point bullet if it were available in 10mm auto.
IMHO.
Link Posted: 9/21/2002 12:02:40 PM EDT
How much difference is a longer barrel going to make? I know most of the drop ins are more accurate than factory, but is there a lot of difference in velocity.

I do like the XTP bullet. I shoot 200gr XTPs in my .40 - gottem cranked up to 1000fps for deer season.
Link Posted: 9/21/2002 12:15:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/21/2002 12:27:18 PM EDT by Slacker]
It would be in your buddies best interest to do the following:

Go to the local indoor range and put a pie plate on the target hanger. Then run it all the way down to the end. Now load the Glock 10mm with the type of ammo that you deceide on. Have him holster it.
Now tell him the pie plate is a mountain lion coming at him...and start it twards him.
See if he can hit it as it gets closer. My bet it that he may nick it if he's lucky but I bet he never touches it.
Now do the same with a 18" bbl Rem 870 w/000 buck. My bet is that he will "see the light" in respect to what gun to carry. Anyone can be a good shot with a pistol under ideal conditions but even the best shooters have problems under pressure. Anyone who's shot an IPSC or IDPA match can attest to this.
Your friend is going to get eaten if he ever has to use that Glock to shoot a cat. They are twice as fast and twice as strong as the fastest person. He'll be lucky if lives to tell the tale...

Edited to add:
Ever shoot an auto, under stress, one handed?
Most of them turn into single shots...
Link Posted: 9/21/2002 12:17:48 PM EDT
1911A1 with Federal Hydrashoks
Link Posted: 9/21/2002 12:19:19 PM EDT
Of course since im only 17 and not allowed to carry firearms to defend my self I resort to my kershaw blackout.
Link Posted: 9/21/2002 1:14:04 PM EDT
I can't imagine a velocity increase of over 25-40 fps from the longer barrel. Yes, I forgot about the 200 gr. XTP. Slacker is correct when he says that under pressure we may not react as we want/need to. I think that if I might be dinner for a big cat and I had my Glock 20. I would have ammo that was tried and true, a lanyard on that pistola just in case and a revolver in .41 or larger so I would have " six for sure". After that, he would have to get me in the back or the ass cauze I'd be runnin' like hell. IMHO. .02 cents worth.
Link Posted: 9/21/2002 1:51:24 PM EDT
I first tried to talk him into a rifle or shotgun, but he is going to be walking through thick brush carrying a radio tracking device in one hand. I figure if one gets him it will be on him before he gets a chance to shoulder a shotgun or rifle, or go and get it because he laid it down somewhere. I do like the lanyard idea.
Link Posted: 9/21/2002 2:49:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunzilla:
As for the glock pistol itself, I just don't care much for them is all... I remember when they first came out and were all the rage, before we started seeing what sort of service life they have.



HAHAHAHAHHA-- LMFAO...thanks for the giggles...just ran my 15Kth round through my old Glock 23...still without a hiccup.

Glock pistols have a service life far longer than alloy framed guns...FYI.

You may know your cats, but you don't know jack diddly about Glocks. It's ok though, we still love you.
Link Posted: 9/21/2002 2:54:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/21/2002 2:55:53 PM EDT by dissipator556]

Originally Posted By Gunzilla:


Given that the 10mm is about on par with a 357 magnum, ....

BTW: I would'nt carry a glock in any caliber in a hostile environment ;)



1) 10mm is hotter (about another 100ft/lbs of muzzle energy) than .357 mag, plus you have 4-9 more rounds to throw at the bastard(s)...so I would disagree with your first point.

2)See my last thread for your Glock opinion. BTW, mine has performed in 'hostile territory' for the past 9 years, and I ain't complaining. I am also a big fan of the 200/180 gr XTP loads (at around 950-1000 fps) for hogs and other wild nasties, and the screaming 155gr Speer Gold Dots for the two-legged nasties.
Link Posted: 9/21/2002 3:28:40 PM EDT
A G20 is enough for mountain lion. Original spec 170-175 gr ammo was on a par with 41 Magnum revolver loads in the same weight.

Get high caps though. It is still only a handgun.
Link Posted: 9/21/2002 3:54:40 PM EDT
Thanks for standing up for the Glock. I almost said something earlier, but didn't want to start in on a totally different subject.

What about Magsafe 10mm

1800 fps w/ 96gr bullet
Link Posted: 9/21/2002 4:15:30 PM EDT
NOOOOOOO

I can't believe nobody has warned you about that yet...

Too light, even for 'baby' lion

What if he needs to penetrate bone or shoulder?

One word: quality hollow-points (ok, that was really 2.5 words)
Link Posted: 9/21/2002 4:57:53 PM EDT
So the 46gr doin' 2400fps is out too?Does anyone know what top end velocity of a 10mm w/a 200gr bullet is? I have my .40 Walther p-99 hitten 1000fps with 200 grainers.
Link Posted: 9/21/2002 5:18:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By deltadave:
What about Magsafe 10mm

1800 fps w/ 96gr bullet



You won't get much penetration out of Magsafe, and penetration is absolutely VITAL in any defensive situation. (Of course, overpenetration isn't good, but neither is underpenetration)

If you're gonna insist on 10mm, I also suggest the XTP in the heaviest weight you can find, in a full-house load.
Link Posted: 9/21/2002 7:36:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/22/2002 7:46:07 AM EDT by Gunzilla]

Originally Posted By dissipator556:

HAHAHAHAHHA-- LMFAO...thanks for the giggles...just ran my 15Kth round through my old Glock 23...still without a hiccup.

Glock pistols have a service life far longer than alloy framed guns...FYI.

You may know your cats, but you don't know jack diddly about Glocks. It's ok though, we still love you. hr


Hummmm... I got my first glock through the "LEAP" program in 1985, after that I was sent to 2 separate skills courses, range course and armorers course, I guess I once knew something about the lil'gun, but probably have forgotten most of that by now!

I just do not care for the glock, sorry... take a look at what 'leet military units use it? Or how many PDs have dropped it in the last decade?

The bottom line is that you like yours and therefore have satisfied the Prime Directive... "have a gun". When asked the "best gun" question, I tell people the same thing over and over... Whatever you are comfortable with, can shoot well and can reasonably obtain!

I maintain that the 1911 is the best gun made, followed VERY closely by the CZ, heck the only problem that I can think of with the 1911 is that the grip screws and grip screw bushings are both right hand thread?

But, lots of people are not comfortable with the 1911, condition one, size, mag capacity, whatever... so, get what you like, what feels good to you and you can shoot -- remember the first rule of gunfighting? No scence in owning something that is what someone else wanted.

I have seen lots of guns break, I see you put a good 1500+ rounds a year through your pistola and it is serving you well... little more a man could ask? When I was younger, I had a sponsor that provided almost that amount of ammo a month, different people have different benchmarks is all. I have seen very expensive guns crack in less than 100 rounds and own an old Commander that has well over 50K through it.

I have attended the Berretta auto pistol skills course twice and broken a total of three 92s between the two weeks... I had a brandy new 92 crack the locking block during a range qual and had a CRANE rebuild nearly separate the slide from the rest of the gun during the first mag! Needless to say, I am also not a fan of the Berretta, but know a lot of people that are, that have never had a problem with one and shoot them with great efficiency and authority.

If it seemed that I was trying to talk anyone out of buying a glock, then I apologize... not the case at all, just weighing in on the pistol with my .02 -- BTW: I have had a few catastrophic failures with a 1911 as well ;)

Link Posted: 9/23/2002 11:06:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2002 11:09:16 AM EDT by dissipator556]
Is this 'researcher' a very skilled pistol shooter? If not, I would have very serious moral reservations about recommending a full-house 10mm load.

It sounds like what this guy needs is a good short bbl shotgun (18.5in bbl), with a cruiser-type grip (pistol grip), with a pistol-gripped forend.

I would load that up with Federal Tactical (reduced recoil) 00 buck, and send him on his way. If he doesn't want the pistol grip on the forend, then at least have a strap of some sort screwed into the forend, so his hand will not slip out. The whole setup could be slung over his shoulder, or kept in the ready position via a tac-sling.

This would be cheaper, require less training, and be far more effective for defense than any pistol. The only downside would be slightly more weight and bulk to carry, but that is no reason to go with a sub-standard means of defense.

EDITIED to say that I have seen many pistols get limp wristed during stressful fire, making the gun jam. This wouldn't apply to a revolver, but I wouldn't recomend ANY pistol to someone who is unskilled with a pistol and will be going into harm's way. Get him a short bbl Mossberg 500 or Rem 870 with a pistol gripped butt (no stock), and he will have a compact and powerful weapon that he can have confidence in.


Link Posted: 9/23/2002 11:21:17 AM EDT
Springfield V16 = Very dead kitty 230gr 45 caliber bullet at up to 1200fps from 1911 frame is pretty cool.
Link Posted: 9/23/2002 1:33:19 PM EDT
These cougars don't sound like the kind of animals are just going to pounce on you for no reason I think they usually go after kids that run from them and smaller animals.
Link Posted: 9/23/2002 3:01:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2002 3:05:21 PM EDT by AR15fan]
North american big cats are thin skinned medium game animals. We usually kill a couple a year that wander into the burbs. 147Gn 9mm JHP & 12ga reduced recoil 00Buck have both worked just fine.


Link Posted: 9/23/2002 3:11:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunzilla:
Having spent a lot of time on a ranch in northern Arizona... I would offer this.

Cougar are dangerous game, in that they can and will hurt a man -- I also argue that they do not "go down easy"... When I rode in that area, I normally carried a .44Mag revolver and a .444 Marlin lever action... If I had to do it again today, it would be a Marlin 450 Guide Gun.

Given that the 10mm is about on par with a 357 magnum, and I have seen more than one lion and pig survive a centered shot from the 357 (only to be very angry by it)... I would not feel all warm and fuzzy with a 10mm. My personal choice for a "wilderness" handgun is a Wesson 445 Max with a 4" comped barrel.

BTW: I would'nt carry a glock in any caliber in a hostile environment ;)




Ahhh... more pearls of wisdom from Gunzilla. How about suggesting a caliber that you can actually find ammo for at the local WalMart. 445Max? A little exotic.... how about a good ole' .44 Magnum.

Your pal wants an auto.... how about a Desert Eagle in .44Mag? Not that I would really suggest that but it is an auto and in the right caliber.

In all seriousness though.... I carry either a G21 with a 13 round mag of .45ACP or a Taurus .44 MAgnum with a 4" barrel when I am up in Alaska. That is usually plenty to scare off an animal with and if he is really set on attacking you it will do the job. My cousin put down a female grizzly of about 800 lbs. with a .44 revolver... albeit it was from about 15 yards... a little too close for comfort in my book.
Link Posted: 9/23/2002 4:43:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2002 4:52:47 PM EDT by Gunzilla]

Originally Posted By DarkHelmet:

Ahhh... more pearls of wisdom from Gunzilla. How about suggesting a caliber that you can actually find ammo for at the local WalMart. 445Max? A little exotic.... how about a good ole' .44 Magnum.



Exactly... One of the things that I do like about the 445 SMag (versus a 454, 480 or other BIG handgun rounds) is that I can swing by WalMart and pick up .44Mags that fire from it just dandy -- as do .44 Special.

And, it still gives one the option of loading a pretty serious round... BTW: Stopped by the local sporting goods store today and they do not carry 10mm? But they do have 357Sig and 454Cas
Link Posted: 9/23/2002 5:00:56 PM EDT
Personally, I'd carry an M1911 with 185gr Cor Bon ammo. If you cant kill a cougar with 9 rounds of .45acp you either miss alot or that's one bad kitty. If the guy is a novice pistol shooter the Glock is a good choice as long as he has some basic safety sense. The Glock 21 however fits my hand about as well as a 2x4. Heck if it's a real concern give him an AR with a beta C mag and just about any ammo should do nicely.
Link Posted: 9/23/2002 11:53:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunzilla:

Originally Posted By DarkHelmet:

Ahhh... more pearls of wisdom from Gunzilla. How about suggesting a caliber that you can actually find ammo for at the local WalMart. 445Max? A little exotic.... how about a good ole' .44 Magnum.



Exactly... One of the things that I do like about the 445 SMag (versus a 454, 480 or other BIG handgun rounds) is that I can swing by WalMart and pick up .44Mags that fire from it just dandy -- as do .44 Special.

And, it still gives one the option of loading a pretty serious round... BTW: Stopped by the local sporting goods store today and they do not carry 10mm? But they do have 357Sig and 454Cas




You are right there,but remember a 44 spec is to a 44 mag,as a 40S&W is as to a ten mil!

A ten mil is about 1 and1/2 times the veloc and muzzel energy of a .45acp. You want to come close to the ten mil you have to go .45/40 corbon.
Anyway like posted if you get rattled then stick with the 00 buck or such! If you can keep a cool head and hold point of aim a 44 or 10mil will stop most any cat or medium bear!

bob
Link Posted: 9/24/2002 11:28:26 AM EDT
If you really like your buddy, send him out with the short bbl 12ga and call it a day. If he still insists on the pistol, the 10mm Glock will be fine, but make sure he is practiced well under stress- especially if he is using full house loads (the only kind he really should be using).
Link Posted: 9/24/2002 12:28:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bobbyjack:
You want to come close to the ten mil you have to go .45/40 corbon.



Do you mean the .400 CorBon? Or did CorBon rename it?
Link Posted: 9/24/2002 4:44:01 PM EDT
Who makes a good full house 10mm load.
Link Posted: 9/24/2002 5:14:24 PM EDT
Good hot 10mm loads: Corbon, Federal Hydrashocks (NOT THE "PERSONAL DEFENSE" CRAP, THAT IS UNDERLOADED) Horady also makes a 10mm load, I believe. Any of the hunting loads for the 10mm should suffice, as these tend to be loaded with heavy bullets and fairly hot powder charges.

Hey deltadave- you never told us how skilled this buddy of yours is! Is he a pistolero or what?
Link Posted: 9/24/2002 8:33:56 PM EDT
I guess it is to be expected. you guys are focused on what weapon. I have been involved with big cats, both as a sportsman and a biologist, for much of my adult life. If the aforesaid biologist is lucky, and a lion charges(defending a kill), he will maybe get one shot off, the chances of an aimed shot are low(near zero). Big cats can cover a lot of ground in a big hurry. go with a weapon that will give you the best odds in such a situation. be advised, Jaguars are back in play in southern Arizona and, as such, probably in southern New Mexico. If your pal runs into one of these studs protecting a kill, well, not even god will help him.
Jim
Link Posted: 9/24/2002 10:36:21 PM EDT
Could always get a Dessert Eagle in .50AE or even .44MAG. A bit heavy to carry though.
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 10:27:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By peregrine:
I guess it is to be expected. you guys are focused on what weapon. I have been involved with big cats, both as a sportsman and a biologist, for much of my adult life. If the aforesaid biologist is lucky, and a lion charges(defending a kill), he will maybe get one shot off, the chances of an aimed shot are low(near zero). Big cats can cover a lot of ground in a big hurry. go with a weapon that will give you the best odds in such a situation. be advised, Jaguars are back in play in southern Arizona and, as such, probably in southern New Mexico. If your pal runs into one of these studs protecting a kill, well, not even god will help him.
Jim



Read this, and think about it- your buddy needs the aforementioned 12 gauge!
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 2:57:57 PM EDT
the mountain lion is not going to charge you
like a elephant. if you encounter one, the most
likely thing that will happen is that the lion
will run. now the lion stalking you is your
main concern. just watch how a normal domesticated cat hunts. now apply this very
same style to the larger cats. they hunt the
same way. i would want a compact shotgun &
a pistol as backup. if nothing else the shotgun
will work as a club or partial sheild (better
than your arms) after the cat has already
jumped you from behind and taken you to the ground.
Link Posted: 9/27/2002 11:08:04 AM EDT
He is not a skilled pistolero, but he is rather insistant on getting a pistol, maybe I can convince him to carry a shotgun, and keep the pistol for backup.
Link Posted: 9/27/2002 11:18:19 AM EDT
I love Glocks, and I think the 10MM is a kick ass round. I don't own any revolvers.

If I were going to make a habit of being anywhere near fast, mean dangerous game - revolver. Like the .44 Mag or even better.454 Taurus with a HEAVY .45LC load in it at a minimum, or light .454 load.

Link Posted: 9/27/2002 11:24:11 AM EDT
Why not a Glock 21 in 45acp? Makes more sense to get a gun with a heavier bullet if stopping power is neccessary. I'd use a 9mm, but who knows if it would stop a charge!
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