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Posted: 7/12/2002 4:45:12 AM EDT
I've decided to make my first ar-type rifle a Colt Match Target HBAR. I was looking for a standard ar-type rifle and the Colt has come out on top. I do not consider the MT an ar-15 or an assault weapon but only an ar-type semi auto rifle. Anwyay if I can find a MT for under $950 I'll jump on it. I figure a 20" HBAR is good for some serious shooting and Colt is the original. CRC
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 5:58:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CRC:

...... and Colt is the original. CRC



No, ArmaLite is the original. The "AR" in AR-15 stands for AR-malite.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 7:45:54 AM EDT
A good pick. My only AR is an MT6601. One caveat-due to the 1x7" twist it has excellent accuracy with heavy match bullets and 62gr M855, but it is only adequate with M193 55gr ammo, and forget using any lighter bullets or softpoint/hollow point varmint bullets, as the twist rate will spin them to pieces before they hit the target. You seem like a new buyer. Unfortunately, I didn't know this before I bought mine, so it isn't exactly perfectly fitted to my needs. It is still a beautiful rifle, with excellent fit and finish, and great accuracy with heavier bullets.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 9:23:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
No, ArmaLite is the original. The "AR" in AR-15 stands for AR-malite.



So where can we buy an original ArmaLite as opposed to the current Eagle Arms crap rebadged as ArmaLites in a cleverly deceptive marketing scheme?
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 9:52:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/12/2002 9:57:18 AM EDT by 5subslr5]

Originally Posted By Poodleshooter:
A good pick. My only AR is an MT6601. One caveat-due to the 1x7" twist it has excellent accuracy with heavy match bullets and 62gr M855, but it is only adequate with M193 55gr ammo, and forget using any lighter bullets or softpoint/hollow point varmint bullets, as the twist rate will spin them to pieces before they hit the target. You seem like a new buyer. Unfortunately, I didn't know this before I bought mine, so it isn't exactly perfectly fitted to my needs. It is still a beautiful rifle, with excellent fit and finish, and great accuracy with heavier bullets.



poodle S.,
I've never owned an AR with a 1:7 twist but I've thought for optimum accuracy: 1:12 - 55grn, for 1:9 - 62 grn and for 1:9 69grn or heavier ??
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 9:56:17 AM EDT
Boomer, before you rag all over ArmaLite members toys at least pay some dues, that way your posts won't be as empty as your commitment to this site. ArmaLite, for those that can afford the best.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 10:00:38 AM EDT
Armalites are good rifles, but I hate the muzzle brake. When I wander in the woods plinking, it is hard on the ears. For that reason I take my bushmaster or colt.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 10:01:02 AM EDT
My vote would be for a Colt MT6731. Basically a Colt 16" carbine HBAR flattop, 1/9 twist. I think the carbine length is more fitting for the 5.56 cartridge. The carbine's big advantage is that it is very handy.

Enjoy what ever you decide to buy.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 10:03:31 AM EDT
I'm sure you'll love your Colt. I have that model and she has been a jewel. And, it is quite accurate with 55gr ammo even with the 1/7 ratio.

Link Posted: 7/12/2002 10:12:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Am-O-Tramp:
Boomer, before you rag all over ArmaLite members toys at least pay some dues, that way your posts won't be as empty as your commitment to this site. ArmaLite, for those that can afford the best.



Crrraaacckkkkk !!!!!! OUCH !! Thats gonna leave a mark.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 10:29:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gotshorty:

I think the carbine length is more fitting for the 5.56 cartridge. The carbine's big advantage is that it is very handy.




For punching paper who cares. But if you must use this rifle and cartridge to stop someone out past a couple of hundred yards an 18" barrel is minimum - in 'my' opinion. This small caliber cartridge was a part of the SCHV program. These short barreled M16 variants have taken the High Velocity requirement out of the equation. To be effective this round must have velocity and the best way to achieve velocity is through barrel length.

The ArmaLite-Colts' Model AR-15 Mod 01 used a 20", 1:12 barrel and got a 55grn bullet headed down range at 3250 fps.

(But the 16" carbine is so damned handy and of course I've got one or two.)
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 10:29:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:

Originally Posted By CRC:

...... and Colt is the original. CRC



No, ArmaLite is the original. The "AR" in AR-15 stands for AR-malite.



Actually, the "AR" stands for assault rifle.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 10:46:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/12/2002 10:47:14 AM EDT by Juggernaut]
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 10:50:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Juggernaut:

Originally Posted By gunner-1:

Actually, the "AR" stands for assault rifle.



Bzzzt! Sorry, try again next time- Armalite named it the AR15-project #15 as it were. They also brought us the AR7 survival rifle in .22LR, AR10 in .308, and the "Assault rifle" myth killer, the AR17 shotgun See a pattern here?

Juggernaut



Bet me to it, altho I would have said that everything armalite built must have been an "assault rifle", because they all started with AR.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 10:52:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gunner-1:
Actually, the "AR" stands for assault rifle.


Link Posted: 7/12/2002 11:06:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/12/2002 11:06:45 AM EDT by Lckydevl]

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:

Originally Posted By Am-O-Tramp:
Boomer, before you rag all over ArmaLite members toys at least pay some dues, that way your posts won't be as empty as your commitment to this site. ArmaLite, for those that can afford the best.



Crrraaacckkkkk !!!!!! OUCH !! Thats gonna leave a mark.



Instead of bitch-slapping him, one could say he was bitch-posted !


By the way, while Armalite was the first to hold the design. Wasn't Colt the first to seriously market and produce the design for civilian and military use?

Link Posted: 7/12/2002 12:09:02 PM EDT
Actually, Am-O-Tramp, my commitment to this site is shown in the 3.5 years that I have been an active, particpating member here, exchanging knowledge and information about the AR15 with fellow enthusiasts.

Apparently you WEREN'T yet a member here when the whole paid mebership issue came about a year and a half ago and it was CLEARLY stated that paid membership was to have no bearing on one's commitment or worthiness of being here.

One of these days I'll get around to sending in my $60, and you can bet when I do I won't be using it to attack fellow members who's points I am unable to rebut.

So in short, bugger off, junior.

As for the whole AR = ArmaLite thing, I must have stepped on some unresolved tender feelings with the truth. The REAL ArmaLite has been gone for DECADES. Eagle Arms simply buying the rights to the name and restamping their guns as "ArmaLite" does nothing to change that fact. The fact that Eagle Arms and it's customers continue to perpuate the fraud/myth that they are somehow the "original" certainly doesn't speak well for them as a company, in my opinion.

There is only one company that can trace it's roots directly back to the original development of the AR15 and has spent over 4 decades promoting, evolving, and refining the design. I'm sure we're all quite well aware of who that is.

Spectre, leave a mark? Come on, brother. By now you should know better than that.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 12:22:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:

Originally Posted By CRC:

...... and Colt is the original. CRC



No, ArmaLite is the original. The "AR" in AR-15 stands for AR-malite.



Actually, I have come to believe that the "AR in ArmaLite" stands for AARRRRRGGGGHH!

At least that is how about 50% of my range trips with my AR10 end

I'll take my old ponys anyday of the week, thank you very much. CRC, my first Colt was a 6601, but I shoot my 16" guns much more often. Either way, Colt should be a good choice.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 12:28:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Boomer:
Actually, Am-O-Tramp, my commitment to this site is shown in the 3.5 years that I have been an active, particpating member here, exchanging knowledge and information about the AR15 with fellow enthusiasts.

Apparently you WEREN'T yet a member here when the whole paid mebership issue came about a year and a half ago and it was CLEARLY stated that paid membership was to have no bearing on one's commitment or worthiness of being here.

One of these days I'll get around to sending in my $60, and you can bet when I do I won't be using it to attack fellow members who's points I am unable to rebut.

So in short, bugger off, junior.

As for the whole AR = ArmaLite thing, I must have stepped on some unresolved tender feelings with the truth. The REAL ArmaLite has been gone for DECADES. Eagle Arms simply buying the rights to the name and restamping their guns as "ArmaLite" does nothing to change that fact. The fact that Eagle Arms and it's customers continue to perpuate the fraud/myth that they are somehow the "original" certainly doesn't speak well for them as a company, in my opinion.

There is only one company that can trace it's roots directly back to the original development of the AR15 and has spent over 4 decades promoting, evolving, and refining the design. I'm sure we're all quite well aware of who that is.

Spectre, leave a mark? Come on, brother. By now you should know better than that.



Ahhh, Good Comeback !! well said Boomer.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 12:46:17 PM EDT
Well guys,

If you can't beat 'em, buy 'em!

Colt has done well to buy a product and make it their own. Same thing as a "rebadged" Armalite I would guess.

Ask the Japs. If you really can't beat them, surely buy them up and make it your own.

I own some Colt's and Armalite's. They all shoot and that's what's important.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 12:48:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/12/2002 12:51:53 PM EDT by gotshorty]

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:

.... But if you must use this rifle and cartridge to stop someone out past a couple of hundred yards an 18" barrel is minimum - in 'my' opinion....




Agreed. But I am a civie. My plausible defensive situation does not have me shooting people 300+ yards away. Good way to land in jail for a long long time. A necessary and justifiable shooting would have perps comming a bit closer - maybe not "whites-of-their-eyes" close, but within the range of a carbine.

Also as a civie (and not living in NJ), I can (and do) use TAP ballistic tip hollowpoints. Which can be much more effective than FMJ, especially when velocity drops off below 2700fps.

And in SHTF scenarios when I might have to punch through a car or stop a horde coming over the ridge 500 yards distant? I reach for the scoped SR25. Reaching out and touching someone is best with a 308 (or bigger). I really do wonder how the SPRs are performing in mountain-to-mountain engagement distances in Afganistan.


Additionally, some of y'all really need to revel in reading the seminole book on the development of the M16 - The Black Rifle (www.collectorgrade.com). AR stands for Armalite. Kinda hard for it to stand for Assualt Rifle or Automatic Rifle when AR-1 was a bolt action rifle in 308.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 3:59:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lckydevl:


Wasn't Colt the first to seriously market and produce the design for civilian and military use?




L.D.,
yep - ArmaLite sold the patents to Colt's.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 4:10:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/12/2002 4:12:23 PM EDT by 5subslr5]

Originally Posted By Juggernaut:

Originally Posted By gunner-1:

Actually, the "AR" stands for assault rifle.



Bzzzt! Sorry, try again next time- Armalite named it the AR15-project #15 as it were. They also brought us the AR7 survival rifle in .22LR, AR10 in .308, and the "Assault rifle" myth killer, the AR17 shotgun See a pattern here?

Juggernaut



The AR-17 is a perfect example.

Others:

AR-1 - bolt action sniper rifle - design completed in 1954 and well before even the AR-10.
AR-3 - Stoner had been working on this rifle even before joining ArmaLite. (Orig. chambered in 30-06.)
AR-9 - 12 gauge shotgun which was the test vehicle for the AR-17

AR-13 - my favorite for this example - a multi-barrel, hyper-velocity gun system for aircraft.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 4:16:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Poodleshooter:
but it is only adequate with M193 55gr ammo, and forget using any lighter bullets or softpoint/hollow point varmint bullets, as the twist rate will spin them to pieces before they hit the target.



I don't know who told you the BS about "spinning themselves all to pieces" but that's what it is: BS.

I shoot 55gr ammo almost exclusively with my 1-in-7 twist & have no porblems with its accuracy. I easily get sub-m.o.a. with normal mil-surp.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 5:21:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Boomer:


As for the whole AR = ArmaLite thing, I must have stepped on some unresolved tender feelings with the truth. The REAL ArmaLite has been gone for DECADES. Eagle Arms simply buying the rights to the name and restamping their guns as "ArmaLite" does nothing to change that fact. The fact that Eagle Arms and it's customers continue to perpuate the fraud/myth that they are somehow the "original" certainly doesn't speak well for them as a company, in my opinion.




I believe my only point was that the "AR' in AR-15 stands for ArmaLite and that Colt was not the original.

AR does stand for ArmaLite and Colt was not the original.

I don't believe that facts are either fraud or myth.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 5:25:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Boomer:


There is only one company that can trace it's roots directly back to the original development of the AR15.......




Only one company is corrct. And that company is ArmaLite.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 5:36:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/12/2002 10:36:57 PM EDT by 5subslr5]

Originally Posted By Boomer:

The fact that Eagle Arms and it's customers continue to perpuate the fraud/myth that they are somehow the "original" certainly doesn't speak well for them as a company, in my opinion.




You might check ArmaLite's site under "History - 1995-Present" before mouthing off about fraud and myth.

Now, I'm an ArmaLite customer and are you questioning my integrity by calling me a fraud and purveyor of myths ?
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 6:58:51 PM EDT
Mark Westrom's Armalite is to Armalite as a) the new mini is to the old mini; b) CMC is to Indian; c) the IRL is to CART; d) all of the above.

answer: d
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 7:50:01 PM EDT
i think this was about the MT 6601 not an "AR means ARmalite" pissing contest. my 6601 is the most accurate of my ARs, i am constantly suprised by its accuracy. it regularly out shoots bull barreled uppers from bushy and oly in the hands of those rifles owners. not too shabby for $900
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 9:25:19 PM EDT
The MT6601 is a fine rifle. I have never had a problem with any Colt rifles (or products for that matter). I would also suggest a 6551 if you can find one (they have been discountinued). They are the same as a 6601 except they have the government profile under the handguards and are a closer representation to a service rifle than the consumer market induced hbar craze. Armalite (which one are we talking about, lol) also makes a fine product, as do Bushmaster, Rock River, etc. It really boils down to what you like and what type of deal you can find.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 12:43:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
You might check ArmaLite's site under "History - 1995-Present" before mouthing off about fraud and myth.



Already checked it. The part where they compare themselves to Colt is good for a few laughs. It's also impressive how they gloss over a 33 year period of no product design or development and basic inactivity.



Now, I'm an ArmaLite customer and are you questioning my integrity by calling me a fraud and purveyor of myths ?



If you're going to insist that this current "ArmaLite" is somehow the original company or has anything to do with the real ArmaLite other than buying their name and remarking their Eagle Arms AR15s with it, then yes, I'll continue to question your integrity.

The original AR15 design and rights to produce it were purchased by Colt. That makes Colt the original now.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 2:30:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DvlDog:
my 6601 is the most accurate of my ARs, i am constantly suprised by its accuracy. it regularly out shoots bull barreled uppers from bushy and oly in the hands of those rifles owners. not too shabby for $900



Perfectly said, sir! I too enjoy having other AR owners outshoot their own guns with my Colt.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 2:56:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Boomer:

If you're going to insist that this current "ArmaLite" is somehow the original company or has anything to do with the real ArmaLite other than buying their name and remarking their Eagle Arms AR15s with it, then yes, I'll continue to question your integrity.




I've gone back and re-read the posts and don't believe I have said the current company is the same as the previous company ??
I see only you saying that someone says that.

One of the reasons I try and correct erroneous history when I see it is because of Colts' attitude. ArmaLite gave Eugene Stoner credit for designing the AR-15 when he didn't but at least they gave someone credit. On the other hand, Colts' gave credit to no one including ArmaLite and Stoner.

I don't believe you're interested in facts so I'll simply leave you to your own beliefs.

But ArmaLite still invented the AR-15 and AR still stands for ArmaLite. Matters not whether you like the facts.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 4:20:23 PM EDT
I guess the Eagle has landed! But I will ride away on my horse. Colt has been in the AR business longer, with more units produced, and developed every engineering change since the orginal design.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 6:41:42 PM EDT
CRC,
Congrats on your choice of rifle. I've had the MT6700 and the MT6601 which are both HBAR's. They shoot great, but I've like my MT6551 more because of the A2 profile barrel. It's better balanced and easier to tot around for hunting.

Have fun and blow a few thousand rounds through it. You'll now understand why the U.S. still keeps it in the arsenal.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 7:11:37 PM EDT
Doesn't Colt still offer the Match Target HBAR with a 1/9 twist rate as well as a 1/7? I would go for the 1/9 twist if they still offer it.
Link Posted: 7/13/2002 7:53:25 PM EDT
Agreed that AR stands for ArmaLite. The original one. The one that sold the AR15 design and production rights to Colt, who subsequently holds claim to the original AR15, made a success out of it, and has more experience than anyone else evolving, refining, and producing them.

5subslr5, if you are so genuinely interested in correcting erroneous history, perhaps you should consider including a disclaimer regarding the truth about the current ArmaLite so as not to blur the line between the original company and the current one that markets rebadged Eagle Arms products.
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 4:26:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/14/2002 4:56:44 AM EDT by 5subslr5]

Originally Posted By Boomer:


5subslr5, if you are so genuinely interested in correcting erroneous history, perhaps you should consider including a disclaimer regarding the truth about the current ArmaLite so as not to blur the line between the original company and the current one that markets rebadged Eagle Arms products.



Actually, I've thought about that too. The thing is so unwieldy as to make me forget that idea.

The first ArmaLite would have to be identified something like: ArmaLite, a Division of Fairchild Engine and Airplane Company, Inc.
Then Fairchild spun out ArmaLite and that one would be: ArmaLite, Inc., a wholly owned subsidiary of Fairchild Engine and Airplane Company, Inc.
I know by about 1964, (when the AR-17 shotgun was introduced) Southwest Capital out of Dallas, Tx., was a major shareholder so I guess then ArmaLite, Inc., was the correct name as it could no longer have been a wholly owned sub...........

Then there's the problem of which entity did what and I simply don't remember each company's products and would have to go back each time and look so I'll just continue to say ArmaLite.
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 5:12:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Boomer:
Agreed that AR stands for ArmaLite. The original one. The one that sold the AR15 design and production rights to Colt, who subsequently holds claim to the original AR15, made a success out of it, and has more experience than anyone else evolving, refining, and producing them.




I'm not sure which ArmaLite (the division or the wholly owned sub) sold the rights to Colts'.
----------------------------------------------
Although this was recently covered in depth in a recent post still worth mentioning again.

If you're looking for Colts' contributions to the AR-15 you don't have to look very far. ArmaLite turned over to Colts' a rifle designed to use IMR powder and the Army switched to Ball powder without informing either ArmaLite or Colts'. Our people were dying (Army & Marines) in Vietnam due to failures to eject brought on by the different powder. (Also no cleaning kits and chamber not chromed) Two Colts' engineers - Foster Sturtevant and Bob Roy - made the changes for the rifle to at least function with Ball powder and these changes (along with the issuance of cleaning kits and chromed chambers) immediately started saving American lives.
ArmaLite gets the blame for the chamber not being chromed but the Army gets the nod on the powder change.

Link Posted: 7/14/2002 6:26:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gunner-1:

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:

Originally Posted By CRC:

...... and Colt is the original. CRC



No, ArmaLite is the original. The "AR" in AR-15 stands for AR-malite.



Actually, the "AR" stands for assault rifle.



I KNEW that would get some of you goin"!!
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