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Posted: 5/16/2002 8:29:30 AM EDT
Having flown a lot lately I wonder if the NG at the airports are armed correctly. Put aside training issues, I'd like to discuss weaponry and possibly the makeup of the force. First, is our beloved AR and the 9mm Berretta the right weapons for CQB in an airport? I'd hate to be behind a bad guy getting hammered by .223 ammo at close range, as anyone behind him would probably get hit. For that matter the same goes with 9mm hardball issued to NG troops. What would be the ideal weapons (all kidding aside ie: no belt guns ect) to use in an airport terminal full of poeple? And what type of ammo? Secondly, wouldn't a rapid reaction force like a swat team be more suited to the role than NG troops? I know it's lousy duty, the poor troops have to be on their feet all day and I give them all the credit in the world. I also realize that cost is an issue. But for the purpose of this discussion lets say that cost isn't (and it shouldn't) be an issue. LEOs, I'd like to hear your thoughts as most PDs have an airport division anyway. Why not outfit them right and let the troops go home?
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 8:47:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2002 8:48:58 AM EDT by Boomholzer]
From experience, the armament of the NG varies from airport to airport.

I’ve seen some carrying 20” A2s with tethered 92FS and others with only a fully holstered (std army issue holster with flap) handgun.

I don't believe that "reaction-type" tactical personel are needed for day-to-day monitoring of airport hubs.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 10:23:42 AM EDT
frankly i wonder what the mission is. i doubt al-queda is planning a full-scale assault on an airport, when they could do as much damage at your average mall (mall ninjas notwithstanding).
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 10:51:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2002 10:52:51 AM EDT by gravitynoodle]
Ditto. Seems like they were there as eye-candy, to reassure the public. Here in Louisville, and I'm guessing elsewhere, they are being replaced by LEOs.

Link Posted: 5/16/2002 11:05:36 AM EDT
From a practical sense, they serve no purpose. They are there to make sheep fell safe.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 11:14:13 AM EDT
I asked this same question...

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=73763
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 11:33:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TigerClaw:
I asked this same question...

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=73763



Thanks Tigerclaw, I agree with the others on your poll that LEOs should take over from the NG. I do think there should be an armed force to respond to a potential threat at the checkpoints, but I also agree the NGs are really wasting their time. I also agree with the poll voting for the MP-5s or UMPs. The AR is the wrong weapon for the task. As for the terrorists not hitting airlines again, well they did attack the WTC twice. I'd like to see efective security at the airports so it can't happen again. The emphasis on effective!
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 11:57:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By az_larry:
As for the terrorists not hitting airlines again, well they did attack the WTC twice. I'd like to see efective security at the airports so it can't happen again. The emphasis on effective!



but they didnt attack airlines or airports. they walked up to the counter, bought tickets and boarded along with everyone else. all perfectly safe and legal until they took over the planes with box cutters/nailfiles/letter openers.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 12:56:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By az_larry:

Originally Posted By TigerClaw:
I asked this same question...

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=73763



Thanks Tigerclaw, I agree with the others on your poll that LEOs should take over from the NG. I do think there should be an armed force to respond to a potential threat at the checkpoints, but I also agree the NGs are really wasting their time. I also agree with the poll voting for the MP-5s or UMPs. The AR is the wrong weapon for the task. As for the terrorists not hitting airlines again, well they did attack the WTC twice. I'd like to see efective security at the airports so it can't happen again. The emphasis on effective!



Actually in an Airport the M4 is the RIGHT weapon for the task. For a number of reasons:
1) It will defeat body armor (don't you think think well-funded terrorists will have it?)
2) LESS of a problem with overpenetration than those handgun round (aren't you up on the lastest in CQB weapons/Tactics/theory?)
3) MORE Accurate (so you can more easily make those headshots when there are innocents around).
4) NO NEED for FULL-Auto - do you really want guys spraying handgun rounds around in a crowded airport?
5) More Effective - the 5.56mm round is far more effective than ANY handgun round. I want to drop the bad guys NOW! - not have to put 5-10 rounds in them.

Ever wonder why the SWAT types are starting to give up their squirt guns for M4s?
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 1:12:03 PM EDT
The NG is there for looks only. I know for a fact the soldiers at Philly International carry empty Berettas. They are allowed to have a loaded mag in their pocket but not in the gun. I shit you not.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 1:22:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Philadelphia_GunMan:
The NG is there for looks only. I know for a fact the soldiers at Philly International carry empty Berettas. They are allowed to have a loaded mag in their pocket but not in the gun. I shit you not.



WHAT?
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 2:54:55 PM EDT
Just window dressing. Makes grandmas feel all safe. Sounds like Barney asking if he can put the bullet in.

My 0.2 Rubles
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 3:11:05 PM EDT
The 5 foot woman soldier I saw at the airport with fuzzy standard issue beret, baggy uniform and boots with lots of brass showing and looked like it was polished with a hershey bar really didn't impress me.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 3:30:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Philadelphia_GunMan:
The NG is there for looks only. I know for a fact the soldiers at Philly International carry empty Berettas. They are allowed to have a loaded mag in their pocket but not in the gun. I shit you not.



I can only speak from experience, but the Int'l airport that I was stationed at the infantryman carried their LOADED M16 (20" bbl) and the real MP's carried LOADED M9's.

We did not think that it was an ideal weapon choice either due to obvious overpenetration issues in an enviroment with innocent civilians. But since those were our standard weapons that we train with, that is what we carried. I think that almost all airports have pulled out the guard and now have police manning the checkpoints. (the poor bastards, its crappy duty!)
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 6:21:19 PM EDT
HKer, were you talking about Philadelphia Internatianol airport ? I know for a fact that the NG at Philly Inter carry unloaded guns. I know this becuase a friend of mine is a LEO at the airport.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 10:14:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/17/2002 4:55:35 AM EDT by Charging_Handle]
I think the 12 gauge shotgun, M4's, MP 5's and .45 caliber weapons would be best in this setting. But they use what they are issued.

I think that LEO's would be better suited to this airport security stuff, if there were enough of them to do it. But I do feel that each state should have a well trained National Guard unit on stand-by 24/7 to rapidly respond to any terrorist emergency to either assist police or take care of the problem themselves. A rapid reaction force so to speak. Or if manpower was available (which it isn't) a state police type rapid reaction swat team that could respond by helicopter rapidly would be nice. I think that would be better than just watching airports...have a unit that could respond to any threat in the entire state.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 10:19:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:
Actually in an Airport the M4 is the RIGHT weapon for the task. For a number of reasons:
1) It will defeat body armor (don't you think think well-funded terrorists will have it?)


These guys are in a jihad wanting to die for their cause. Body armor is not their style.

2) LESS of a problem with overpenetration than those handgun round (aren't you up on the lastest in CQB weapons/Tactics/theory?)

That's only if all the NG troops are still using M193. Otherwise you'll have an overpenetration problem just like you would with the heavier 9mm loads they use in the MP5s.
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 10:24:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Philadelphia_GunMan:
The NG is there for looks only. I know for a fact the soldiers at Philly International carry empty Berettas. They are allowed to have a loaded mag in their pocket but not in the gun. I shit you not.




No flame intended but.."LOOSE LIPS SINK SHIPS"
EVEN if they DON'T keep thier weapons loaded
allthe time there IS NO NEED FOR YOU TO TELL EVERYONE!!!!!LOOSE LIPS....
Link Posted: 5/16/2002 10:32:30 PM EDT
Is the NG armed correctly? Explain to me what their presence does to deter terrorism, then I will be concerned with how they armed. I honestly believe that the NG in our airports is as pointless as the male breast.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 4:50:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By slt223:
Is the NG armed correctly? Explain to me what their presence does to deter terrorism, then I will be concerned with how they armed. I honestly believe that the NG in our airports is as pointless as the male breast.



I tend to agree with you but they do serve one important function. Without some armed force present...who is going to hold, detain and deal with terrorists if the screeners find something in their baggage or on them? Police would be best suited, but most agencies are already stretched to their limits and don't have the manpower for such duty. Until people can be trained to do so, this is probably about the best option at the moment. Not perfect, but better than nothing.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 5:02:35 AM EDT
The NG out at DIA (denver international) were armed with loaded weapons, but not with one 'up the pipe'. They were using the std M9 and M16A2's.

The NG are gone from DIA about 2 weeks ago now. (replaced by 2 DPD (denver pd))

I agree that it's all for show. sad too, I talked with many of the NG troops and there are quite a few that sufferd huge finacial losses do to the extreem difference in civilian vs mil. pay. And for what? to stand at an airport so that someone gets that "safe" feeling?

better weapon? maybe something in the MP5SD category in the hands of someone PROPERLY trained.
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 5:28:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Philadelphia_GunMan:
HKer, were you talking about Philadelphia Internatianol airport ? I know for a fact that the NG at Philly Inter carry unloaded guns. I know this becuase a friend of mine is a LEO at the airport.



I was not at Philly.

Link Posted: 5/17/2002 6:50:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Kroagnon:
[These guys are in a jihad wanting to die for their cause. Body armor is not their style.


These guys also adapt to conditions. If the Body armor will allow them to live long enough to complete their mission they will use it. No 'honor' in dieing w/o killing the infidiles.



That's only if all the NG troops are still using M193.


Nope it also applies with M855 (which is ball not 'armor piercing). I've got some good info on this over at the Maryland AR15 Shooters Site (in the 5.56 Performance FAQ). Includes links and published references. See some of Dr Roberts info on the M855.

5.56 Still your best option....
Link Posted: 5/17/2002 9:35:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:

Originally Posted By slt223:
Is the NG armed correctly? Explain to me what their presence does to deter terrorism, then I will be concerned with how they armed. I honestly believe that the NG in our airports is as pointless as the male breast.



I tend to agree with you but they do serve one important function. Without some armed force present...who is going to hold, detain and deal with terrorists if the screeners find something in their baggage or on them? Police would be best suited, but most agencies are already stretched to their limits and don't have the manpower for such duty. Until people can be trained to do so, this is probably about the best option at the moment. Not perfect, but better than nothing.



I agree with you about agencies being stretched to their limits, but I was going in and out of Logan in Boston back in Novemeber and there were plenty of U.S. Marshals at all gates and security points. This made much more sense to me since (I assume) they are much more specialized in law enforcement than the NG.
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