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Posted: 3/14/2002 6:53:30 AM EDT
I'm taking some interest in longer range shooting. Buddy has a NIB Savage 12FV heavy barrel in 7mm mag w/ Nikon Monarch 3x9 UCC scope. Price is $625 all of it NIB stuff. Is this a good starter precision shooter? Or should I look into other tactical rifles?

Thanks!
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 7:47:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2002 7:48:11 AM EDT by SNIPERm88]
What do YOU want? What range are you going to be shooting, what range do you have available to allow you to shoot long range? Are you going to reload for it? Are you comfortable shooting a 7 mag? Sounds like you just want a fun rifle that is capable of longer range accuracy. If you are not going to reload then consider cost of ammo and how much you are realistically going to shoot it. I love my A-Bolt 7 mag. Fortunately I have an uncle who loads for me and I have two rounds that work extremely well in the rifle so I am able to use it for hunting and long range shooting. I have only shot it at 400 yards as of yet but I would like to go further. Do my part and see if I can put the 168gr Sierras on target. Anyway, get what you want, can get a deal on, and you are going to have fun with.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 9:07:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2002 9:08:16 AM EDT by ARfun]
SNIPERm88,
First a long range target rifle 400-600 yds.
Can double as a decent hunting rifle. Have fired both 308 & 7mm handle both well. I do reload my own 40SW, 45 acp, & 223. Addong a 7mm should not be too much of a stretch, 308 is cheaper though (military surplus - not sure you can use it on a bench rifle though). I guess I'm interested in the best rifle/long range accuracy/reloading that I can get for my $. Do not know much about Savage, friends have Remington 700.

Link Posted: 3/14/2002 11:03:39 AM EDT
IMHO - the .308 will generally out perform the 7mm mag in terms of accuracy, shootablilty, and cost. On the other hand, the 7mm may be a more versitile hunting round. I know you're looking for somewhat of a compromise, but if you have other hunting specific rifles, definitely choose the .308 win.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 11:29:11 AM EDT
I think I would go with the .308. The round I load for my Remington 700 stays subsonic out past 1200 yards. The 308 is capable of some pretty amazing things.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 11:38:24 AM EDT
Go with the 308, you'll shoot it more, learn more about shooting and there is a massive amount of ammo available for the 308. My Remington 40XC is capable of 2" at 400 yards, but thats all I've been able to get it out to. You'll end up shooting the 7mm very little, since the kick is not fun and your accuracy will suffer from the flinch that inevitably occurs when shooting the heavier round.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 11:46:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2002 11:47:48 AM EDT by Tinker]
If you don't have a .308, get one. There are plenty of match grade commercial loads, and match grade components for it. The hunting loads are nothing to sneer at, and surplus ammo is available out the wazoo.

If the .308 doesn't float your boat, why not the .260 Remington? You can shoot it all day with less fatigue. The sectional density of a 6.5 mm bullet is awesome, and it makes a very versatile varminter/hunting rifle. And if you need brass, neck down .308 or neck up .243.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 12:16:00 PM EDT
If you're talking in terms of 'inherent' accuracy, the non-belted .308 is the physics winner, having a shorter catridge length and headspacing off the case's shoulder. The shorter case length allows a stiffer/less flexing action to be used.

The belted magnums are headspaced of the case's belt, creating a throat 'jump', and reducing brass life. Of course, you could adjust your dies to allow the shoulder to do this job, since you reload.

But history has proved the shorter cases to be more 'inherently' accurate than longer ones. Here's an article explaining why- www.snipercountry.com/Articles/AccuracyFacts.htm 400-600yds really isn't that far for long range shooting. Either caliber should do just fine.

There seems to be a trend towards the 6.5mm cartridges in 1,000yd shooting. Even the light 142 Sierra MK has a BC of around .600. It will take a VERY long 7mm or .308 caliber bullet to equal it, while adding much greater recoil at the bench.

I believe the Savage varmint is available in .260 Rem, which is a 6.5mm, and has a twist ratio to match the SMK. It's simply a .308 necked down. There is a lot of talk about this combo at www.snipershide.com (forums) and the benchrest boards. It allows increased flight efficiency and lower recoil.

Well, good luck.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 1:24:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By schapman43:
The round I load for my Remington 700 stays subsonic out past 1200 yards.



So at that point what happens?

Does it become supersonic at 1200 yards? That would be amazing!
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 3:20:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HouseCat:
If you're talking in terms of 'inherent' accuracy, the non-belted .308 is the physics winner, having a shorter catridge length and headspacing off the case's shoulder. The shorter case length allows a stiffer/less flexing action to be used.

The belted magnums are headspaced of the case's belt, creating a throat 'jump', and reducing brass life. Of course, you could adjust your dies to allow the shoulder to do this job, since you reload.

But history has proved the shorter cases to be more 'inherently' accurate than longer ones. Here's an article explaining why- www.snipercountry.com/Articles/AccuracyFacts.htm 400-600yds really isn't that far for long range shooting. Either caliber should do just fine.

There seems to be a trend towards the 6.5mm cartridges in 1,000yd shooting. Even the light 142 Sierra MK has a BC of around .600. It will take a VERY long 7mm or .308 caliber bullet to equal it, while adding much greater recoil at the bench.

I believe the Savage varmint is available in .260 Rem, which is a 6.5mm, and has a twist ratio to match the SMK. It's simply a .308 necked down. There is a lot of talk about this combo at www.snipershide.com (forums) and the benchrest boards. It allows increased flight efficiency and lower recoil.

Well, good luck.



Thanks for the 'snipershide' site.

I've decided to get my ArmaLite AR-30 in .300 WinMag instead of .338 Lapua.

Any opinions on the .300 WinMag ? Inherent accuracy ? Range ? (Strictly for piercing air and hopefully punching some paper.)
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 3:27:27 PM EDT
Better check that rifle designation again; the Savage FV is a 'short' action...the 7mm is a long action caliber.

Savage 12FV: www.savagearms.com/centerfire/varmint/12fv.htm

If it's a 110FP:
www.savagearms.com/centerfire/varmint/10fp.htm

...might be a fun rifle!
The 10FP would be the short action LE style.
Anyway, the links should help clear up what it is you're looking at.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 6:43:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2002 6:46:22 PM EDT by ARfun]
Little better info on the rifle package deal!
All NIB never fired + 100 rounds Factory ammo
$625
Model 112FVSS - Long Action 7mm mag

Features: Stainless barreled action, heavy, fluted, free-floating and button-rifled barrel, with internal box magazine and swivel studs.
Sights: Drilled and tapped for scope mounts.

Stock: Synthetic with positive checkering, dual
pillar bedding.

Magazine Capacity:
3 rounds (7mm Rem. Mag., 300 Win. Mag.).

Weight:
9 lbs (25-06 Rem., 30-06 Spfld., 7mm Rem. Mag.,
300 Win. Mag.).

BarrelLength: 26".

Overall Length:
46.75" (25-06 Rem., 30-06 Spfld., 7mm Rem. Mag.,
300 Win. Mag.).

Caliber:
12FVSS, 12FLVSS (25-06 Rem., 30-06 Spfld.
(available in right-hand only), 7mm Rem. Mag., 300 Win. Mag.).

Action:
Long (112FVSS, 112FLVSS).



95% light transmission
Nikon’s famous super-high resolution lenses
100% Waterproof/Fogproof/Shockproof
One piece main body tube construction
Fully multicoated lenses for unsurpassed light transmission/contrast
Nitrogen filled and O-ring sealed
Lifetime full warranty


Sounds like most folks think 7mm mag is too brash a round for long range target and 308 better option?
[:\]
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 7:38:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ARben:

Originally Posted By schapman43:
The round I load for my Remington 700 stays subsonic out past 1200 yards.



So at that point what happens?

Does it become supersonic at 1200 yards? That would be amazing!



That was my thought too.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 6:36:24 PM EDT
I love the 308 win round! But have to put my vote in for the rem 700 7mm rem mag! But if you shy away from 10gauge ,12 guage ,and would rather have a 16 or 28gauge shot gun because you can hit better with out all the felt recoil, go with the 308,or 270. Kinda like the mossin nagent m44 carbine in 7.62x54r nice gun , but most people can't zero it in because its hard to see where you are shooting with both eyes sqiunched waiting for your shoulder to kick the Shit kicked out of it! Use a 162grn hornady in the 7mm mag and you can keep up with and best the 300 win mag in most ways! With less recoil... Use what you can hit with!..
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 7:54:36 PM EDT
Couple suggestions you might want to check out:

Glen Zediker's book on the AR has some good information about Dave Tubbs going to a 6.5 x 308 for High Power Competition. Seems physical properties of bullet give more results than just velocity.

Talk with some of the ballistics guys with Sierra, Hornady, etc.

Tubbs and Zediker both have websites if I remember right.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 8:30:07 PM EDT
Based on the info you've given, the whole combo sounds like a good deal.
It's more of a hunting style firearm that may prove to shoot with a good degree of precision...
You reload, so you've got that covered.
The gun and scope can be upgraded, changed around, or whatever, to suit your taste.
Maybe even traded later.
If it turned out to be a good combo, you may want to keep it.
I think it's a hunter more than anything. In a pinch, it could be a lot more.
I like the 7mm Rem.Mag. cartridge. It 'feels' good to shoot. It works.
The combo you're looking at isn't a Tactical rifle, per se, but could be made into one or used as such, if need be.
Great problem!
Link Posted: 3/16/2002 12:39:23 AM EDT
Both .308 an 7mm Mag are very accurate, flat shooting rounds. In my experience, the .308 is easier to shoot well, since it doesn't pound your shoulder so much. I shoot both about equally well, but many if not most shooters will be more likely to flinch when shooting the 7mm. It's really kind of a tough choice, so that means you have to get one of each!!
Link Posted: 3/16/2002 3:41:58 AM EDT
Ive shot both ill tell you 7mm mag is not a weak
round it has alot of power at 600 yards! ive shot 600+ yards with one. 308win is great no felt recoil, though ive never really noticed felt recoil out of the 7mm mag but the muzzle blast is awsome! what i do is get a 308win first
and if you like to get a 7mm mag get one of those too.
Link Posted: 3/16/2002 5:21:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2002 5:24:03 AM EDT by BlackandGreen]
Mine is in 25-06.....if you want flat out easy to shoot it`s great.....308 is cheaper no doubt as powerful...but that changes at distance...depending on the loading.....another terrific round is 7-08....it seems to be popular in lighter guns...but rem did offer it in the vls.....overall...if you really don`t want to get exotic....stay with 308....06 is good too...if you find a "deal" on one....7mags get expensive real quick.........BUT..the price isn`t bad....
Link Posted: 3/16/2002 7:54:47 AM EDT
.308 is "technically" more accurate, 7mm is flatter shooting, but if you are shooting at known ranges this doesn't matter. Sounds like a good package deal, just keep in mind 7mm is likely far more expensive to shoot even if you reload and there is plenty of "match" stuff out there in .30 cal, not-so-sure about 7mm. And as noted above, you can shoot a heavy .308 all day without fatigue, 7mm is a relative handful.
Link Posted: 3/16/2002 10:25:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2002 10:25:45 AM EDT by WWoodworth]
Some people would say that the reason that the 7mm only has a 3 shot capacity is this: That is the number of rounds you will fire before wanting to hand it to someone else while your shoulder heals.

Personally, I prefer the .308, having shot both. While we aren't talking the kick of a .416 (ouch), the 7mm is pretty stout. The .308 is seriously less fatiguing. Both are accurate, with (like others have said) the .308 being cheaper to purchase. In the end, it will come down to what you want. The package you have lined out seems like a pretty good deal, but also think about the fact that several manufacturers of scopes have drop-compensated (normally for 168 gr. match ammo) scopes that may help in long-range shooting. Springfield Armory, for example.

Anyway, enough rambling. Take your time and don't get something you won't be happy with (get the .308, get the .308 -- oops, did I say that out loud?).

WWoodworth
Link Posted: 3/16/2002 5:16:29 PM EDT
To be completely honest, i think you can do much better than that deal. I'm not knocking the Savage, but from my personal experience, the new Remington Varmint Laminate is a real tack driver! I'm talking .5" with regular 150 gr factory loads and close to one hole groups with my loads. I picked up the gun on gunsamerica.com for about $465. I think that nikon is a nice scope, but not for what you're looking at doing. If you're looking at target shooting, and not a tactical gun, I'd strongly consider checking Ebay for a 36x40mmAO Leupold Target model. Found usually around $300. You'll never regret it! If it takes you an additional couple months to save up, I'd strongly urge you to wait!

The price difference from your package isn't that tremendous and you can obviously see that you'd end up with some top shelf merchandise!
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 2:23:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2002 2:24:45 AM EDT by ARfun]
Found what I think is a good pacakge deal.
Your thoughts greatly appreciated.
Has five rounds through it. How's a 20" barrel for long range?

Like new, Savage .308 Light Tactical rifle. 20" Bull barrel 2X8 Leupold with Stoney Point knobs Harris SL 9" to 13" bipod Dewey Cleaning Rod Otis Field Cleaning Kit Gun Guard 2 rifle hard case w/locks $800.00

Link Posted: 3/28/2002 5:52:01 PM EDT
What kind of accuracy could one expect out of a good rifle using surplus .308 ammo?

Link Posted: 3/28/2002 6:04:07 PM EDT
Geez, ARfun, when you have a dilemma, you do it right!
The Savage rifle isn't a 'bad' rifle.
Ask a lot of guys on this Forum who love theirs.
You've come up with two very different rifles to work with.
I favor the 7mm Rem.Mag. you inquired about first.
Then again, the little .308 you're looking at would be a great choice, too. I'd restock it, though.
Whatever deal you get, you're about to have some serious fun.
Good luck on your choice.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 7:05:48 PM EDT

What kind of accuracy could one expect out of a good rifle using surplus .308 ammo?


I get MOA or better with Portuguese and British surplus .308 ammo with my Remington 700VLS.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 8:00:45 PM EDT
Hello there, I know I am new here on this site but this is something that I do have experiance in since I have built several nice rifles in both .308 and 7mm. Also I have a Styer Tactical HB with 3rd Gen. Springfield scope that shoots a moa at 500 yards with 165gr. nosler balistic tips...Also have the Styer Prohunter that shoots a one hole group, and I mean one bullet hole with 5 rounds through it at 300 yards with the same round...But I took an old 700 Rem in 7mag and put a Hogue Overmold stock with full alum. bedding on it and it shoots 1/4 moa at 300 yards with 140grain nosler balistic tips, did I mention that the Hogue stock makes the recoil about like a .410 shotgun! Really great stock and very rigid. So, go with what you want, the .308 will reach out there, however the 7mm will also, however, there is a lot more plinking ammo for the .308. Forget the savage, it is junk, buy a nice gun or put your money back in the pocket. I know some of you are saying, man this guy is crazey, but take it from someone that shoots some of the finest made rifles in the world, Styer, save up and buy the right one...besides they come with Jewel triggers already in them...need I say more?

Hope this helps, like I said, I'm new and all, but this is one place I have been and know what I am talking about.

Joe
Link Posted: 3/29/2002 8:07:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2002 8:10:23 AM EDT by SIX]
ARFun,

two things:

I have a savage 7MM hunting rifle. It is light enough to pack around all day. Has the reach out and power to drop an elk at a distance; yet without question, it is not something you WANT to just sit around an plink with. It kicks like a mule. I have never done a thing to it, and it is a damm fine shooting hunting rifle.

I also have a Remmy PSS that I am just getting put together. The Remmy is going to be used strictly for punching paper and slapping steel. There is no damm way I want to pack this thing around while hunting. My PSS should weigh in right around 17 pounds fully dressed.

An LTR is about 2 pounds lighter.


Think about what you really want to do with this rifle. If you do want to hunt with it, a 7MM is one of the most versital cartigages available.

If you want to punch some serious paper - that is another story all together.

The short answer - 2 rifles.

FYI - I *believe* the secrect service still uses 7MM for sniper / counter sniper duties. My understanding as well is, that in order to make the traveling team there is a weekly qualification - 5 shots at various distances, in 10 seconds or less. That (unlike the fable of Lee Harvey) is shootin' my friends.

Good luck.
Link Posted: 3/29/2002 2:04:19 PM EDT
The .308 is for shooting, the 7 Mag is for pain. Gene
Link Posted: 3/29/2002 2:59:14 PM EDT
GA Precision custom built M40A3 copy, in
.300 Winchester Magnum. Shot a 2" group today, 5 shots, with a 15 mph cross wind, at 300 yards.
Three of the five rounds went through the same hole. This rifle weights almost 16 lbs., and the recoil is minimal, thanks to the Badger muzzle brake. The blast and noise ( especially if you are at a 45 degree angle next to the rifle are a different story. Ammo was 190 grain Federal Match. My handloads even shoot tighter.

Link Posted: 3/29/2002 3:35:36 PM EDT
can GA precision build a 308 rifle off a 7mm mag remington 700 BDL? I thought the M24 had a long action receiver so that they can be chambered to 300 win mag should someone wish to do so....
Link Posted: 3/29/2002 4:22:28 PM EDT
George Gardner can do wonders.....
Contact:
www.dennysguns.com/denny/precision.html
Link Posted: 3/29/2002 7:10:36 PM EDT
Mine is just a plain jane rem 700 adl 7 mm rem mag, its not a heavy barrel but when you throw it up to your shoulder it tends to nose dive! It seams to need more weight in its synt stock in the butt area to even it out! is there something you can do(short of drilling a hole in the buttstock and filling it with sand)to get more weight here? And would this help(making the buttstock heaver? I would put a brake on it but i have heard the what the ak brake on my 16inch bushy sounds like and only can immagine what it would be like on a 7mm rem mag? probably defoiliate the whole woods! Any body know what the answer would be in increasing the weight of thr rifle,(inexpensivly) thanks bob cole
Link Posted: 3/29/2002 8:10:53 PM EDT
Bob, in response to your question about the stock...you can do a couple of things...buy a hogue overmolded full alum. bedded stock that will not only eliminate the recoil, but makes the gun look great, balances it well, and makes the groups get really tight...or you can get a recoil reducer from brownells. It is basically mecury in a tube that goes into the hole in the buttstock, this reduces recoil and gives good balance but does nothing for accuracy. Or you can drill a hole in the butt of your stock, under the butt plate of course, and put in some lead weight to the desired amount...

I think the Hogue is the way to go...great results from mine. Also try turning the trigger down a notch to increase performance, be careful however not to do it to much as it will cause the bolt to fall when the safty is released, not good at all if you know what I mean!

Joe
Link Posted: 3/29/2002 8:28:43 PM EDT
Thanks boxerowner about what would be the cost of one of those houge bedded stocks? And do i just go to houges.com to find out or will i just get grips,grips,grips.. thanks again bob cole..
Link Posted: 3/30/2002 2:52:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/30/2002 2:58:06 AM EDT by ARfun]
WOW,
Great information gentlemen. Now a range buddy want to sell me his Remington PSS light 20" barrel - fluted and cryo treated, w/Leupold singe piece ring base. $700
Sucks to have less than 800 to spend on my starter bolt rifle - would leave me scopeless for a while.
What about the 20" barrel? 100 yards he shot 0.65" 3 round group off of a bag, w/Tasco Target scope How would it perform at 500 +? Read some comments that short barrels were a detrement to long rang shooting, due to velocity loss. True or False? He has only fired a total of 58 rounds through the rifle.

Any thoughts package vs. just rifle?

Thanks - Also, for the fountain of information!
Link Posted: 3/30/2002 3:52:07 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/30/2002 8:24:07 AM EDT
FWIW, build up your own rifle. Buy the rifle you like, buy the base you like, buy the rings you like, buy the scope you like, buy the bipod you like. Also, think alot before you buy a scope. Once you mount it to your rifle you have devalued it alot. If you decide you want a nicer scope, you are already at a loss on the scope you have. If you are going for true long distance you will need a good LR base, and GOOD RINGS. Look in Brownells, they have all the top rings and bases. For a good system you should pay as much or more for your scope as you did your rifle. The scope choice is critical. Buy good glass. Having been down this road, I can tell you from experience there are no shortcuts.
If you are just planning on shooting out to 400 meters, just about any of the "packages" can do that. True long distance is from 800 meters and up.
Steel plates at 1000 meters are more addictive than crack...
Link Posted: 3/30/2002 10:55:49 AM EDT
Bob, I bought mine at Brownells.com for around $200 I think...but it was well worth it. Have your local gun shop order it for you so you get the discount unless they are a ruthless bunch of theives that use their tax i.d. number to rob unsuspecting people like us! LOL! DO NOT GET the pillar bedded stock. Get the full bedded stock. Big difference...By the way, did I mention that on that 7mag I have a BSA Contender scope! LOL! Still shoot 1/4 MOA at 300 yards. Go figure, you never know.

Joe
Link Posted: 3/30/2002 11:04:09 AM EDT
ARFun,
The big disadvantage to a 20" barrel in a caliber like .308, which is what I assume this PSS is in since you did not say, is that if you are loading high powder loads the powder may not burn all the way out. My Styer Tactical HB SBS has a 24" barrel and it will shoot a literal one hole group at 100 yards. That is using match grade ammo or 165 grain nos.bal.tips. If I were you I would wait and get a longer barreled gun if you are wanting to shoot 500+. The PSS in 20" was really designed for police snipers and the average shot range is 75 yards with no recorded shot longer than 90 yards in FBI history. Interesting fact huh! Rem does make the same gun in a longer barrel. As far as mounts and rings and scopes, Most all of my guns have Leup. one piece bases and Leup. rings. I like the way they work and they are lo pro with 4 screws...save your money and buy a good scope you will never regret it...however, good does not mean Leupold, you have to be careful about paying for names. You want a good scope without paying a lot for the name...

My Two Pennies.
Joe
Link Posted: 3/30/2002 2:51:41 PM EDT
Savage tactical rifles are very nice other than the triggers,but now they are easily replaced by the aftermarket.
I own a Weatherby mark 5 .300 wby mag,it has a brake on it but it still is not a rifle for plinking.
Mags i believe are for hunting,i would go with th .308,they are super accurate.
Link Posted: 3/30/2002 4:38:11 PM EDT
Check out Kurt`s Kustom offering.....before you spend any $$$.....He will tell you how "bad" savage rifles are.........
Link Posted: 3/30/2002 4:52:16 PM EDT
I love my Remington 700 BDL / 7mm Rem.Mag. ---

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